Connecting tank-waterheater with tankless water heater
Joe Macker
4 years ago
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tank or tankless hot water heater
Comments (8)"Does the Navien have a bypass? That's good info to know. I hadn't run into the min flow issues until they were reported in the plumbing forum - I don't live where water inlet temps would ever get to 80*. You are about the condensing units having EF's in the .90's" Jake, The Navien has no mixing bypass in the unit like the other flash units that superheat the water in the exchanger to 170-190 and then remix water downstream for temp control. That is why the copper heat exchangers with the intense heat are subject to liming. So they do have difficuties firing and staying on in minimum fire when the cold mix water is to high in temp. The Navien has 100% flow through the #436 stainless steel heat exchangers. Since the unit's heat exchanger is capable of the flow, erosion and due to velocity, along with lower operating temps it is not susceptible to liming & calcification. The pitfall of the design is a slightly wider temp fluctuation than the Jap platform heaters, but this is not noticed so much in the "A" model that buffers that with the internal tank. IMO, the "A" model is the only way to go for the approx 125-150 cost upgrade. The lack of mixing valve downstream, makes the Navien a perfect heater to add in-line to the output of a solar tank to raise the water temp only when tank is low or depleted due to usage or lack of solar input. Rinnai has just released some info on their condensing water heater, 95%. Pitfalls are still polypropylene concentric venting and a Nicaloy primary heat exchanger which to me tells me both the install and unit cost will remain high. Only one left now without a unit above 90% is the Paloma/Rheem/Ruud line....See Moretankless water heater - 50 gl water heater???
Comments (19)There is a LOT of disinformation on these forums about on-demand tankless units, ESPECIALLY the electric units. First, energy cost savings is NOT a reason in itself to make the switch. No reason alone is sufficient. It is the total package, in light of your particular lifestyle, that will dictate the pro-con outcome of the decision making process. First, tankless units save space -- a lot of it, especially electric units that do not need to be vented. In Texas we have no basements, so that can be an important issue. Second, an electric unit is unlikely to blow up, unlike anything using natural gas. Third, there is an endless supply of hot water, which in a successive-morning-shower household like mine, is a really important issue. And finally, yes there is some documented comp fuel savings (electric tankless over electric tanks, or gas over gas), that is really offset by the added initial cost of the unit plus upgraded electrical service or gas supply line sizing. Moreover, there ARE full-house electric units out there that provide plenty of water, unless you plan on taking two showers simultaneously while also doing your laundry and running the dishwasher! And if that's your bag, you can run 2 or more electicals together. Or get a really big gas unit. Bottom line, nearly every nay-sayer of tankless units ignore the pros and focus on a single con - cost, cost, cost. Well, we all don't drive a Ford Focus for a reason. Some of us enjoy our Buicks, Porsches or Camrys even though another car would get us from point A to point B cheaper while using less fuel etc etc etc. Full disclosure: I have a Steibel Eltron Tempra 36 whole-house electric unit. Love it. My electric bill went up nary at all....See MoreTank Water Heater vs. Tankless Water Heater
Comments (4)Guys if you read the post, the reason the tank water heater was so expensive was due to the construction required to get his house up to code. I personally like my tank heater. If your changing from a tank to tankless there is alot of work to do. Moving water lines, moving gas lines (possibly upgrading gas line size too) and running a new intake/exhaust if using gas, upgrading the main service amps if using electric. Some things to consider Tank Heater Pros Costs less to replace in the future Easier to maintain (Tank water heaters are easy to flush out every year) Easier to install (dont have to upgrade gas line or main service amps) Gas water heater will still operate in power outage (electric will still have some hot water to use for a while till power kicks back on). Cons Not as efficient as tankless No Tax Credits Hot water limited by FHR (first hour rating) Tankless Heater Pros Unlimited hot water More efficient Saves space Cons Will cost more in the future to replace (there is no guarantee the tankless will last longer than a tank version, the heat exchanger can go bad and that is the most expensive part of the tankless) , Harder to maintain (you need to try to clean those tankless heaters out every year with a descaler so they stay working efficiently) Harder to install (upgrade gas line or main service amps) Tankless heaters have a limited throughoutput. While it is unlimited hot water, it can only supply so many gallons of hot water at a time Will not operate in a power outage. A tankless water heater is controlled by electronics whether the heater is gas or electric does not matter. Requires minimum gallons per minute from city water supply, some people have not been able to install due to that problem. Consumer reports note that users complain of inconsistant water temperatures. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm Another good site to look at: http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/tankless-water-heaters.html...See MoreReplacing tank water heater with tankless style Rinnai vs Navien
Comments (37)Hi Charles Ross Homes, Thank you for your thoughtful response. My home is a 1960 single story ranch situated in a Southeast Texas. All of the homes I have owned here have had the water heater (tank or tankless) in the attic. City code permits for this install location. Not all, but many, homes in the area have water heaters in the attic. I understand about the potential leak issues - we have water leak monitoring and emergency shutoff and water collection pan/drainage in place. My garage is detached and on the Northeast side of my property. It would take quite a bit of work and cost to move the water heater (and associated gas/power) to the garage. I could consider putting the Navien on an outside wall, but that would require it to be installed on my master bedroom wall or in an unprotected area. I don't feel it would help with the sound issue anyway and there is the cost issue as well. I think the Navien NPE-240A is just not a good fit for my needs and constraints -- given its operations and operating requirements. My last instant water heater was a Noritz - put in by the previous homeowners. I never heard it operating. I'm sure it made some sound but that sound wasn't loud enough to permeate to any of the living areas. They don't make that Noritz any longer. Do you have recommendations or suggestions for a "quiet(er)" tankless system? Thanks....See MoreJoe Macker
4 years agogirl_wonder
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agoJake The Wonderdog
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agoPatricia Colwell Consulting
4 years agomike_home
4 years ago
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