I'll have to get more pics tomorrow since it's pitch black in there now. I see no signs of any waterproofing compound on the boards or any containers laying around the room.

Cement Board does not appear to be screwed properly. Needs to be a non-alkaline tape at all joints, "spackled" (for lack of the proper term at the moment) with thinset, and typically then some type or waterproofing. The pan doesn't look correct either as the cement board appears to run all the way to the pan and will sit right in the water.

Sorry this is happening to you. There seems to be an epidemic of incompetent tile people right now.it happened to me. Read this, especially the part about documentation.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5725013/what-to-do-when-a-project-goes-completely-south#n=54

Wow, AJCN. Quite the story and good info. The PM for my GC actually just called me, at 9 pm (in response to my earlier panic text) and said he's sending the crew back out in the morning to do a tear out and make it right (although in regard to the spacing issue, he said this type of tile doesn't need spacers, are meant to be abutted, and they have grout that will fill the space...). My concerns are that the same subs will be redoing the work. I don't have control over that.

Confirm the contents of that phone call by email. That’s your documentation that he has basically admitted that it was done wrong, agreed to redo it, and is planning on showing up tomorrow. Be real professional/kind of sweet in the email, saying how you appreciate that he acknowledges that it was done wrong, and that you appreciate that he is going to try to rebuild it correctly. You might want to add a little note in there about how rebuilding it correctly means following tile industry standards and manufacturers instructions For the waterproofing work and the tile installation.

TCNA tile handbooks says butted tiles are a no-no. The tile manufacturer would also have instructions online that you can read. I’m not a pro, but I can read.

It’s good they are going to re-do it. That’s their ONE chance. If the fix also violates tile industry guidelines, or manufacturers guidelines for waterproofing and tile installation, then it’s a second fail, and you can fire them, demand a full refund plus $$ for ruined tile, and move on.

Do ALL your communication by email, and Confirm verbal agreements and discussions by email. Even if the verbal discussions seems like it might not have great importance at the time, still confirm that by email. These can be friendly sounding emails. They don’t all have to be stressful and contentious. But the documentation could be needed in the future if he decides to sue you saying that you were an unreasonable horrible customer who wrongfully fires him, interfered with the work site, didn’t pay after perfect work was done, etc. So always always always have email documentation confirming all the verbal discussions and agreements.

I don’t understand what’s going on on the shower floor. Maybe a pro can weigh in. Is there a pan there? A slope?

cement board walls should not touch the shower pan.

if your tiles have self spacing joints, they should at least have nominal spaces. mine did.

what is the plan for the tile edging around the niche? he has the non-coated edges facing outward. those should be bull nosed edges. if not, you'll need a liner of some type, or metal edging like schluter.

here's bull nose,

Schluter

has the shower pan been tarred? or sloped, or mudded? what's going on w/that?

can we see the left side? I hope the tile goes up above the shower head.

In fact, why isn't the tile take all the way up to the ceiling?

he said this type of tile doesn't need spacers, are meant to be abutted, and they have grout that will fill the space.

There are some tiles that don't need spacers. I had Daltile subway tile that didn't need spacers but it had a teeny little nub that acted as the spacer.

There are pencil tiles (or whatever they are called) for edging the niche, walls. I don't know what kind of pan this is but it did pass a leak test and city inspection. I think the tile def needs to go up higher. It's not as high as the shower door that was ordered!

Why are there holes in the liner?

I’m not a pro, but even I can read in the TCNA handbook that the liner must be free of penetrations.

There's cement board screwed to the curb now so I can't see those holes in the vinyl.

Ok, two years ago when something like this happened to me, the pros on this forum told me that it is not correct to put screws through the cement board and through the liner anywhere including the curb. That was pointed out to me after I posted pictures. Hopefully a pro will weigh in to give you a real answer. I’m just relaying what I learned when I went through a similar situation.

Huge fail. what is the purpose of a waterproof liner if you're going to punch holes in it??!!

nothing gets screwed to the top of the curb that gets wet all the time.. That alone is grounds for a tear-out. Your tile guy is a hack.

compare to these

best way is to mud over the curb (at the very least if he used cement board, the entire thing should be coated w/waterproofing membrane like Redgard.

couple things. I just want to see. did he pitch the curb inward? in other words, is the curb top slanted toward the drain? put a level on it. Ditto for the shower pan. is it sloped from the rear to the center?

I'll check out those slopes in the morning. Lots of things to discuss with GC tomorrow. So very grateful for everyone's guidance on here!

Don’t let contractor go off on tangents and distract you saying things like “you’re too picky” or “you’re too hard to please,” or “it’s always done like this, and I’ve never had a call back.”

Always bring discussion back to the (1) the waterproofing done wrong (give examples such as boards attached haphazardly, not muddled and taped, slope?, multiple holes in liner, screws into curb); (2) unacceptable tile installation (point out butte joints, rough cuts, indicating they probably don’t even have the right tools, etc). (3) what is the contractors plan for rebuilding the shower in accordance to manu instructions and industry standards. Then let them talk. If off on a tangent, repeat above. Your goal is to get GC to agree to a re-build with an actual tile pro.

Whoever this GC is, they did not hire a qualified tile pro, probably to increase their margin or maybe they are just ignorant. Either way, it’s their job to have it re-demoed and re-built, and this time by a real tile pro.

If you’re a reader, buy a downloadable TCNA handbook and read the intro section and shower chapters. It’s not a lot of pages. Then you can point right to the standards that were violated. Local plumbing codes too; they will have rules about pre-slope, no holes in liner, etc.

Pure hackery. King of Hackery. It’s kinda admirable in a perverse way as to how thrifty he was to save and use all of those scraps. That’s using that as a power for evil instead of good, but it’s still impressive to its commitment to badness.

oh, live_wire_oak. I so needed that chuckle today!!!

You said in one of your posts above that you were concerned that the same tile people would be re-doing the work. And that you had no control over that. That’s sort of true, but not really. In your meeting with the general contractor, go through all the problems one by one, and then ask for the shower to be demoed all the way back to the studs, and rebuilt. Ask for a new trained and qualified tile professional. One of three things is going to happen. First, The contractor may refuse, in Which case you ask him “does this mean you’re quitting the project altogether, because it’s impossible to move forward without fixing the shower. It will leak if it’s not rebuilt. I’d much prefer that you continue with the project rather than quitting.”

Wait for his answer, and again he will either continue to refuse, in which case you confirm with him right then when you’re sitting there with him that you’re not firing him, but if it’s not going to be fixed, you are at an impass. He’s either quitting or needs to explain his plan to fix it. Which is it? If he quits or continues to refuse, ask for a complete refund because you’re going to have to hire a new contractor to demo and rebuild the shower. This refund includes every penny you have paid this contractor forvshower construction, plus money for all of the ruined materials that now you will have to re-purchase, such as tile.

The second thing that may happen is that the contractor agrees to rebuild the shower. In that case you give him a chance to rebuild it. Under most states construction loss (read “goes South” again and document the re-build process with date-stamped photos). Under most states construction laws you have to give the contractor one chance to fix things. If or when that fix fails again, then you may fire him. Then you also demand a refund. Do all your refund requests by demand letter sent certified return receipt. You can also email a copy of it to the contractor if you want to. Probably he won’t pay you, but that’s the first step that you do to try to recover some of your money.

The 3rd thing he may do during the meeting is defect, distract, blame you, bully, yell or lie, try to say it’s built correctly and you are wrong. (This really fits into #1 above because it’s a form of refusal.). When this happens, stay calm and re-direct the meeting back to the subject at hand: the wrongly built shower, and what the contractor’s plan is to remedy the situation.

This is such a pain in the a**. But unfortunately it’s not all that uncommon.

After your status meeting, post here again for more support. Take notes!

AJCN

The crew is demoing the mess this morning but GC rep won't be here until later. The subs told me all kinds of things like ' the cement board is specially coated so redgard isn't needed" and ' the tiles don't need spacers because the tiny grout lines will look better and they use an unsanded grout" (fyi, the tiles do not have any self spacer features such as lugs or bumpers).

I'll see how it goes. The 'firing' part is tricky because this project is a (six figure!) small addition w/ bath and complete kitchen gut reno and they are GC of the whole project. One big contract.

"The subs told me all kinds of things like ' the cement board is specially coated so redgard isn't needed" and ' the tiles don't need spacers because the tiny grout lines will look better and they use an unsanded grout""

100% compete B.S. on all of that.

That compete BS. If it were me I would not allow any work until GC gets his butt to your house.

Get in there and take pictures as the demo it back so that all the layers are documented.

The stakes are high. I agree firing is tricky. Proceed with caution. But today? Stop work til GC decides this is important enough for him to show up. The subs are lying to your face.

I sent kind but firm detailed emails with pics to company.Glad you all gave me the courage because normally I completely avoid confrontation at all costs (because it makes me literally get sick). Subs are back toting fiber mesh tape, mud stuff, Redgard, and spacers. Also cement to slope pan. GC rep on the way. He said he'll do whatever I want. We shall see...

You're doing the right thing. When a similar "failed-shower" situtation happed to me it was the only time ever in decades of doing renos that a project went totally down the tubes. On any project there are going to be some issues that come up here and there, the difference is how do both parties handle it? I had never stopped work before, and there have been plenty of times I have just let small or medium-small things go because you have to save your fire for when it really matters. Showers are special because water is so destructive when it goes where it's not supposed to be (like in your walls!). So this is the place to put your foot down. It sounds like the GC is saying he will find a way to make it right, so work with him to help make that happen, but do not let people lie to you; call them out on that by letting your GC know about all those BS comments above. If I were GC I would want to know which of my subs was lying to my customer, or just displaying total ignorance.

Seeing red! In a good way....redgard, cleaner edges, and grout lines.

That's a good sign. Did they replace all those small patchworked pieces of cement board with new, and mud and tape the seams? Try to take pics each day if you can.

You're not alone; there are like 3 or 4 threads going right now about botched shower installations. Something is in the water.

shadowpipersallie, I can't tell if they replaced the goofy patchwork because of the red coat but it is definitely taped and mudded there. You're right.There is something in the bath water...

What about the holes in the pan liner? Beth, or another pro, could you discuss what is to be done about that? Should the tile setters be actually setting tile right now before addressing the floor and the face that the cement board is touching the pan?

“Fact” not “face”

If I understood correctly, he said they will encase the curb with backer board that will be planted (on the shower side)in a mortar bed, then redgard, then thinset, then a single eng marble threshold piece (no grout) on top. The wall board that is sitting on the pan now will also be planted in the mortar bed.

Still completely wrong on the curb and consequently the pan. What type of tape? Why type of mud (god I hope not spackle)? Was the redguard dry? Did they use the film gauge? Was the cement board screw pattern done properly? Your still going to end up with a mess from the sounds of it.

Are they still using a vinyl liner for the pan, or are they now using a surface-applied membrane on the pan? The waterproofing on the walls needs to be tied into the pan waterproofing with one method or the other, not some of each.

They’ve had their 2nd chance. Time to fire them.

why don't they just do a mud curb?? so much easier. (like in the pic I posted way up). you'll still have holes in the liner. granted, the possibility of water seeping through a marble curb and getting underneath waterproofed cement board is slim, BUT, why is it tile standards that NO holes be punctured in the liner? I'm just saying. Make sure there is a caveat in your contract that due to holes in the liner not be fixed, any type of water damage to the curb will the responsibility of this GC/company, even if it means a total redo. don't pay unless he agrees.

How do the pros on here advice the OP in terms of any possible firing? OP said this is a very large 6-figure project involving an addition, kitchen and a bathroom. What if they are going a good job in the other areas of the house? Does anyone have any experience in firing a contractor from only part of the project? What I mean is, could they negotiate to take the bathroom off the table, refund the customer for that part, and then proceed to finish the rest of the addition and kitchen? I have no experience with firing a contractor so I don't even know if this is something that is done.

OP, are they doing a rgeat job in other areas? Seems like showers are the hardest thing to get right, way harder than kitchens. It seems like there are more complaints on this forum regarding showers that almost anything else.

Pros, is taking the bathroom off the list even a reasonable thing for OP to consider? I imagine that would be a pretty tricky negotiation. Maybe putting a stop to bathroom, having them finish everything else, and then come back to the bathroom discussion after the rest is finished, so that everyone can cool off, and they will have time to get an independent inspector in there (while things are torn apart and walls are open), to give a non-biased report of the problems? Then after the rest of the addition is done, OP and GC can negotiate about how/if to move forward on the bathroom. If this is even a reasonable approach, OP you should withhold the entire bathroom amount until the end of the project.

The come to jeebus meeting where you insinuate that you will fire them if they can’t meet TCNA Standard is what makes them hire a different, more expensive, crew. It’s risk getting fired for cause on a large lucrative job, or they get their act together. https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers

I’ve found that turkeys don’t trot alone. You can bet that here is other work being done on this that wouldn’t pass scrutiny. Many GC’s hire low priced and low skilled crews to eke out a bigger margin. And they get away with it most of the time. Homeowners don’t have a lot of knowledge about judging the differences between Chinese flat pack cabinets and semi custom. Or the right way to wire a kitchen. Or, waterproofing a shower.

This is why the smoothest remodels have a Designer or architect involved, as the customer’s representative and advocate. A good relationship with a GC is important, but he is not hired to act in your best interests. He generally wants the easy and cheap job. No, not all GC’s are like that. The good ones don’t lie about how cheap the job will be and have a year or more’s waiting time right now.

I've been happy with the other portions of the remodel. It (quality of work) really does seem to boil down to the subs they contract. The company has been surprisingly accomodating to make sure I am completely happy with the results. There has been work done that I (in my limited knowledge) thought was acceptable but they thought was absolutely unacceptable. My biggest complaint, up to now, has been the delays. It seems like they are overbooked and stretched way too thin.It will be a year in Oct since I contracted them, but there was a significant wait time (5 mos) before they could even start,and I was pretty much made aware of this. Even the architect was booked for weeks in advance just for my initial consult. I guess it's a good builder's market now? At least it seems that way in my area (outside of DC).

So, what's the resolution? The pros on here are saying the shower is not waterproofed properly and will be a fail, a leak, a mold factory. And Live-Wire, yes, I have experienced this where GC's hire hack subs to increase their margin. It sucks. So... how do you guys advice this OP? I'm just a homeowner. I advice the OP to negotiate to remove the bathroom entirely from the scope of work, and if OP thinks the rest of the addition/kitchen is being done correctly, continue with that. Then, after all that is done, revisit it with the GC. GC has already had 2 or more chances to do it right; at the time of the re-visit, OP can fire them without giving another chance. But by then the rest of the addition will be done, so at least they can live and have a kitchen. And OP, you should hold back 100% of the bathroom money because you are going to need that to hire a new pro.

That's just my un-educated homeowner advice to OP.

It’s not practical to pull one portion from a large contract. On a large renovation, too many expenses are intertwined and inseparable. Separating out the contractor’s specific cost wouldn’t be equal to a different contractor’s cost because of the multi projects discount in effect on a job like this.

The general contractor needs to step up and hire a different, competent, crew. It would be sad to think that it would take threatening to take the whole project away from him in order for him to hire correctly. He should just step up and do the right thing.

I was involved as the homeowner’s representative on a project where the GC hired an inexperienced tiler. He ruined 6K worth of tile. The GC found a different crew, paid for all new tile, and the demo, and started over. He handled the issue 100% before the out of town homeowners even knew there was an issue. Of course he told them, but only after he had the new tile on order. He presented the issue, it’s resolution, and the revised timeline that it created.

exactly ^. The GC needs to hire a diff tiler. It's on him because these are his guys. If they can't do the tile work satisfactory, then he needs to minimize his losses and get a better replacement. period. As the homeowner, I would make it clear to the GC that this needs to happen.

The GC needs to hire a new tile installer AND get an education himself on what to look for in a skilled installer.