Here is a link to my University's Nursing School page. It walks through the different degrees and is I think pretty helpful.

Nursing Linky

To talk ancient history, my mom is a "diploma nurse." Back in the '50s, hospitals had their own nursing schools where you went for three years and graduated with a diploma and an RN, but no actual "degree" of any kind. My former stepdaughter got a 2-year RN (Associates degree) back in the '90s. She then started having kiddos and never went back for her BSN. Her husband was a 2-year RN as well, who went on to get his BSN and then went to PA school. I wouldn't recommend a 2-year RN program. It does get someone into the workforce faster, but it's very limiting if that person wants to move into a supervisory role, or risk management, or quality, or compliance, or . . .

Yes, I think that’s right based on what I’ve heard from DS’ former GF (she just graduated from college last year and they were together all through college applications and throughout college), and a couple of friends whose kids are currently in nursing school. Nursing programs ARE hard to get into. And not just the ones at prestigious schools. Most kids I know who are in, or went to, nursing school had straight A’s in a very competitive high school, very good test scores, etc...and none of them got into every school they applied to.

Jakabedy, Yeah, she knows she wants a BS. Direct-admit BSN programs are more common in our area of the country than out West I think. If I understood the link you sent and all the paths, it does not seem to include direct admit. So you could go 2 yrs than apply to the nursing program and not get in; then what.

I know a bit about this process and, frankly, I would advise some 18-year-olds to *not* do a direct admit unless they had been doing what your daughter has been doing, getting to know what nursing entails. I know many students who first get their associate's degrees while working in the healthcare field, and by the time they're applying to BSN programs (not as direct admits), they are sure about their career path. This can be favorable to some BSN programs who see these students as more retainable.

On the other hand, I also know students who like the *idea* of nursing (and have been advised to go into healthcare) but without having experience working in a healthcare setting, apply and are admitted to direct admit programs, and then find it isn't for them after all.

Either path will get your daughter where she wants to be in the end, and since she's already gained some exposure, yes, a direct admit seems the better choice. But don't be discouraged if this doesn't initially work because she can still get into a BSN program later. At the end of either path, she'll have some great opportunities. All of my friends who are nurses have had lucrative careers, some moving on to nurse practitioner programs and positions in management, and others who have remained in nursing for the flexible schedules. And, of course, if she wants to be a nurse educator... well, she'll be especially in demand.

You might also want to read about Masters Entry Programs in Nursing (MEPN). There are some great programs, and they are definitely another option for getting into nursing after completing a non-nursing bachelor's degree.

Best of luck to your daughter...it's an awesome career choice! So many opportunities!

And FWIW, even in the '80's, my class was full of "people with those types of scores"...and I'm so glad they chose nursing. :-)

The competitiveness of nursing schools is due to the class size. Even a large state school only admits a couple of hundred nursing majors. The schools around me are direct admit due to class sequences. You can't jump into a nursing major your junior year. Another factor to be aware of is where the clinical years are located. For example, the University of Maryland, you take classes your first 2 years at the College Park campus. Your last 2 clinical years are in Baltimore City. Certainly not a deal breaker, but changes your college experience.

I think you are on the right track. Our DIL changed her career path when they moved here from Chicago, getting a second degree BSN in a direct admit program. Getting in nursing programs is competitive, but job opportunities are plentiful.

DIL met with advisors at two local programs. Both are hard to get in due to so many applications and slot constraints. Her final choice was more expensive, but she could start/graduate sooner, and there was no guarantee she would get into the other program if she waited. She had work experience in the medical field in Chicago. After graduation (about 3yrs ago), she immediately started working in an ER, but after a year, the 12 hours 7 days then off 7 days routine wore on her and their young daughter. She went into home health care and is now the senior nurse there. She is making six figures and has better hours, as long as one doesn't mind being on call sometimes. Her original plan was to work for awhile, then become a NP.

Since your daughter has experience volunteering at a hospital, maybe she could shadow a nurse for a day there or a doctor's office.

Could someone please explain to me the path from college to PA? I don’t intend to hijack mtn’s post. I think my question might be relevant to her seeking information for her daughter. DH’s DGD says wants to be a PA. She’s in her first year of college, majoring in “health sciences.” I did a little googling. It appears that one gets a BA in some health science field, then works for a couple of years as a nurse, an EMT, or something similar, then goes back to school for what is basically a master’s program. Is that correct? Is there anyway to skip the 2 or so years of work experience? I worry that she’ll get out, go to work, and then never find a way to stop and go back to college.

PA programs require you have a set number of hours 1000? I think of healthcare experience prior to admittance. I know one young man who completed his BS in a science field, got an EMT certificate and worked at that for a year while applying to PA school. A young woman I know completed her BA (not sure in what) got a certificate in medical assisting the summer after graduation and worked in a pediatrician's office for a year while applying to PA school. Both lived rent free with parents while working the year between college and PA school to save $$.

Mtn, fwiw, USM, also known as UMaine Portland has a great nursing program with clinical at Maine Med. I have acquaintance who completed the program a few years ago. She had great experience. The other nurses I know concurred with her.

The daughter of a friend of mine went to Fairfield University directly after high school. She was doing the nursing program there as an undergrad. I remember her mom posting pictures of here during a "white coat" ceremony. She graduated two years ago and did not go to grad school. She works as a nurse now at SK in NYC.

In the opinion of those of you who are familiar with the health sciences field, wold you steer a child toward PA or NP? Why?

A neighbor just started a 4 yr college nursing program, right out of high school. In the summer before 11th grade, she took part in a program at a major hospital that exposed high school students thru all the various departments at the hospital. She's been set on neonatal nursing ever since then.

PA and NP are similar and ypet different. PA is more clinical training , and more education vis a vis becoming a diagnostician. If I was choosing for myself I would choose RNP.

I know that at our local university, you can major and graduate with a non-nursing degree (but you may have to major in a science, not sure), and then enter a one year program to attain a bachelor's degree in nursing. A patient of ours, who went to college intending to apply to medical school after getting her degree, changed her mind,but had already majored in biology, so she went to the one year BSN program. She is a nurse in a hospital now, loves it.

There are direct admit PA programs as well as direct admit pharmacy programs. It takes longer than 4 years, but the advantage is that you don't have to re-apply. PA schools are competitive! Applying to PA school after your undergraduate degree has required undergraduate classes, GRE test and required interaction with patient hours. Every school's website will list their specific requirements.

My stepdaughter majored in theater for her undergraduate. She recently decided to go into nursing, went back and took the prerequisites at a community college, and then applied to nursing programs. She just started a one year BSN program in August. The one year programs are extremely competitive and high pressure. She loves it so far, but I think she wishes she took a less circuitous route. My understanding is that jobs at the others end are plentiful and varied.

I have a niece and niece-in-law who became nurses recently with a BSN. Neither did a direct admit program. My niece got a psychology degree and then got accepted into a BSN program at a different college. My NIL also completed her masters degree and is now a nurse practitioner in a family practice clinic.

Having worked in a healthcare related field my entire career I've said many times how great I think nursing is as a career choice. There are so many routes you can take if you decide bedside nursing isn't what you want to do in the long run.

Here are a few routes I've seen people take if they decide to move on to something a little different:

CRNA - nurse anesthetist (second in command to anesthesiologist)

Clinical specialists/management for medical device and tech companies - the VP of sales at my last company was a BSN from UW Madison and never worked a day in a clinical role other than in college

Hospital/clinic management positions

Other clinical expert/management positions in healthcare industry - insurance companies for example

Nurse practitioner roles in various specialties - coworker recently completed an NP program in mental health and works as an independent contractor for a couple different clinics.

My daughter graduated from a large state university last year, and had two very close friends who were both four-year nursing students. It's a very competitive program, and DD always felt, watching them over the years, that the nursing program was one of the most rigorous any of her group of friends was in. They both had multiple offers before graduation. One went to a large trauma hospital in NYC and loves it; the other went to a Chicago hospital and loves it as well.

One thing I don't think we give enough thought to when we are young women is the flexibility that some careers offer over others. It seems to me that nursing, with the opportunity to do contract work, to choose uber-demanding places or less stressful environments, or to do shift work, offers a lot of flexibility that other careers don't. I met a nurse at the Cleveland Clinic last summer who travels all over the US subbing for nurses who are on leave. She is single and loves the chance to travel, and said the pay is excellent.

I would not suggest that anyone get anything less than a BSN now. Hospitals in my state will not hire you with less than a BSN. A few will but they give you a time frame on completion of a BSN. If anyone is considering an ASN or Diploma I would check with places to see if they currently will hire those degrees.

I have a BS in Management from a Big Ten university and then later went and got a Diploma in Nursing. I would have had to complete my BSN to move up the Nursing management ladder. I balked at this because really what was I going to learn in that fourth year that hadn't been covered in my previous Bachelor's?

One of my daughter's is considering a transition to Nursing program now. The issue with many of them is that your college credits can only be a few years old. So basically one has to graduate with a BS and go right into a transition program. While they say 18 months to your BSN, most people do not have the required science classes to start the program. These will take at least a year to get.

I love what I do and do not regret going back for my Nursing degree. I worked two nights a week up thru high school for my kids. I was able to be room mother, scout leader, volunteer at school, etc. An unfortunate side effect of me only working 2 days a week is that said DD thinks she should only work 2 days a week! Honey, most professional jobs don't work that way!

I do agree that nursing is a very good choice, and I am happy that she knows what she wants so early in the process, but what I am worried about now is that she won't get in. Of my 3 she is the least naturally studious. She works hard and has a 90 avg in a good private school with the right curriculum, but I don't think she will do as well on the SAT. And I personally *hate* to see the time and money spent to maximize one's SAT scores. BTDT with the first 2 and it really does raise your score, but what a waste of time compared to true educational pursuits. She is thinking of taking an Anatomy course next summer somewhere either at a local college or even on line. That interests her very much; cramming for the SAT and honing test-taking strategy instead - not so much.

Jojoco, I know Fairfield has a great program and they are actually test-optional. Test-optional has become so common, esp for fully pay, though sometimes it is a misnomer and you need to dig to find that out. Test-optional direct-admit is a rare bird because nursing programs lose their accreditation if the pass rate on nursing boards falls below a certain level. The best way to make sure your grads can pass the boards on their way out is to make sure they did well on the SAT on the way in.

I'd really rather not have her do a BS and then go back for another year, though a lot of people do. But at a private school, 5 years could be $350,000 all in. That seems like an awful lot. I mean, think of all the sneakers you could buy for that. We established 529s when they were all born, and everyone told us we overfunded them. But I can envision scenarios where they use it all. I've already told them if they don't spend it all, they can use what is left for a down payment on a house, which I think would be ideal. So this has made them/us a bit more cost-conscious.

P.S. I contemplated how to word it, but the simple fact is, nursing was not a highly competitive major until fairly recently. Of course there have always been highly competitive programs and exceptional students. But, for example, I see posts about community college programs with 50 slots and 400 applicants! You have to admit that is new; and the obvious reaction to it is more rigorous requirements. No offense meant.

Mtn, if it makes you feel better, my stepdaughter is a bright person, but she does NOT test particularly well. She lives in the same state you do, and when she applied to programs, she was very geographically limited due to the fact that she is married with two kids. I don't really want to post where she is going to school here, but there are several options in the state for very good programs, and I don't think nursing is like some other things where people who go to "prestige" programs get a big leg up. She is going to a state school-- not the State U, but one with a respected program. She also got in to a private school program, compared the two, and found the extra money paid did not equal extra career opportunities at the other end.

DD worked pre-children as a healthcare consultant. Frequently, on her team there would be at least one RN. Just one more career possibility for a nurse!

Does she have an end goal in mind when it comes to having chosen nursing? . Actual patient care or administration/management or research?

I'm a little confused about if she wants to go into nursing and a high SAT appears to be a requirement why would she not want to put in the time to attain it?

That's why I was asking about her end goal - does she actually want to be a nurse or does she want to be in the medical field doing something else that could be done with a different degree - eg health sciences, nutrition/dietitian.

However, they are all still competitive fields. (sorry, still can't edit)

Just covered this today with the freshman 101 course! I do a lot of health professions advising for our majors.

Yes, BSN is going to be required. There are RN to BSN completion programs, but those are pretty saturated and competitive. Some of our students have done an accelerated BSN after their B.S. here. We looked at the RN to BSN completion program, but without a BSN program, it makes no sense economically, and adding BSN is a bigger long-term project and millions of dollars.

I have a couple of students who have gone to be PA's. Super competitive--need 3.7 GPA at a minimum--similar to PT or OT, great grades in sciences, clinical experiences. Many of the students who want nursing or PA get a CNA and get work experience. They really want to see if you can stand the "unglamorous" part of the job.

BLF, she wants patient care. She is more than willing to put the time into it, but there are two things to remember. First, getting a given SAT score is not simply a matter of time/effort and prep. In fact the College Board would like to argue that it has nothing to do with any of that. Within a range though, of course it does. That is why the SAT is most accurate at predicting not academic success, but family income! Because all affluent parents pay for expensive test prep. It's a scam to some extent and that is partly why many schools are moving away from it. OTOH, i can see why admissions people need a common standard to evaluate kids and GPA is far too idiosyncratic.

My own personal bias is that I hate to see time and money spent on gaming the SAT. Personally, I would far prefer the same time and money were spent taking a college course in the field over the summer, which is something DD really wants to do. You know, to learn! We will have to see - she is early yet and hasn't even taken the PSAT. But she is trying to see what her options are and asked me to help with the research.

Gscience, OMG, how fortuitous! I knew my GW peeps would have insights!

BTW, in re above --- everyone should feel totally free to take this thread in any direction they want ... I don't believe in "hijacking"

"That is why the SAT is most accurate at predicting not academic success, but family income" - mtn

This I get. It's the same with the MCAT and the LSAT and I guess, any tutoring that a parent with means can pay for to help their kids.

My niece wasn't particularly academic. She wanted to go into OT and couldn't make the cut at the U of MN. Unless your daughter is set on getting admitted to a particular school (which I don't think makes a world of difference in nursing as in some other careers) I can't imagine that she would not get admitted to a good nursing program. Back in the day I had a good friend who was set on getting into the top four near nursing program in MN. She was my roommate during our first year of college and she worked like a dog to make sure she had the science curriculum and grades needed to get into the program, which she did.

My experience with PAs is only with patient care for me/DH. There seem to be a lot of them working with Orthopods. They do all the preliminary work and the MD sees you for about two minutes unless you're having surgery then they do that. We did see one in the OR once and he was fabulous. While he was working on DH I asked him about his career. He liked it but his concern was that he was expected to do MD level work and at times felt like he would benefit from MD level education to do so effectively. From my limited observations PAs often seem to be MD helpers whereas NPs seem to provide more independent patient care.

Thankfully, she is not set on any particular school, though she would prefer New England because she probably wants to live there after graduation. She/we are just trying to scope things out.

DD’s college roommate at a large public U did not get into the nursing program and ended up in speech pathology, clearly not her first choice but she went on to get a Master’s and is a school SP and doing well. So, since nursing school is so competitive, your daughter should investigate other health careers as a plan B. My DD had a backup major if she didn’t get into the Health program she wanted. She is in healthcare consulting now and her boss has a BSN.

My niece did get into a competitive nursing program at another public U with a hospital and got a job at the hospital upon graduation. She is now completing an online NP program in a different state but they have arranged for her to do the clinicals where she lives.

I tend to agree with you about SAT prep classes. DD did very well in school but had test anxiety when it came to standardized tests. We paid for a prep class and her score went up some, but not significantly.

I can speak personally to this issue. I have a BS in Nsg from an "okay school", and a MSN from THE most "prestigious school"-hahaha- but both degrees were obtained a long time ago! I do know that even then it was difficult to gain entrance to nursing school on the west coast. It is next to impossible now. My niece just got into a BSN program with a resume that is quite beyond belief, stellar grades, three years of the pre-nursing reqs completed, and a high score on the pre nursing entrance exam. If your daughter is quite sure this is her career path, I think the better path is the direct admit to the nursing program that some colleges offer. All that said, I do think it has been a fabulous career choice, and one I recommend esp if one wants to always change, learn, and be challenged. I've had many different roles- direct pt care, research, transplant, etc. I also took several years off and raised my children. There are not many careers that offer such flexibility.

3katz4me: my understanding is that PAs work under the MD's insurance and instruction; I could be wrong? NPs and RN clinical specialists (that is my MSN, clinical specialist) work under their own insurance and laws. NPs tend to work in clinics; clinical specialists generally work in the hospital setting.

If your DD has decent grades and does ok on the SAT, I see no reason she shouldn’t thrive in her college of choice and then be admitted into its Nursing program. I hear a lot of ‘nurse talk‘ around our family table when our kids and families get together.

One DIL is on the faculty at UAB (teaching undergrad nursing subjects) and is working on her doctorate. She runs across a few undergrads every semester that she advises to consider dropping nursing as a major, as they just don’t ’get it’. I don’t think this is going to happen with your daughter, Mtn.

DD is a Nurse Practitioner in the ER, and she teaches one day a week. She has mentored several during their clinicals. She always recommends a new grad with a BSN work at least two years before continuing with their Masters so they can decide exactly what specialty they want to pursue. Clinicals definitely help with this during their final year of undergrad but the work experience is invaluable. If there had been a program available close to home, she probably would have gone to grad school to become a CRNA (Nurse Anesthetist), that’s generally where the bigger paychecks are for nurses.

Our other DIL has a BSN and now is a case manager in pediatrics. She was formerly on a pediatric thoracic transplant team. She loved that job but was promoted.

@joaniepoanie - My DIL is a speech pathologist. Here it is a Master's program but she wanted to work as a patient caregiver and worked in a hospital with stroke victims. She wanted to transition into working with cancer patients so took a leave for a year and worked with a team in Edinburgh furthering her education. She's back now and splitting her time with stroke victims and setting up a program for cancer patients in her community hospital.

I have just a bit of peripheral knowledge about this as I work at a public community college with both LPN and RN programs. They are growing by leaps and bounds, even with stringent student entry guidelines.

It is my understanding that the National League for Nursing is heavily pushing the BSN as the lowest acceptable education standard. And their requirements on US, as an accredited institution for the lower level degrees, are getting tougher and tougher. It is very difficult - and pricey - for us to recruit and retain qualified instructors. Those instructors can earn much more PRACTICING rather than TEACHING. The salary differential for our nursing faculty is currently about 30% more than a faculty member in any other subject area.

Littlebug, good points. There is a big shortage of Ph.D. nurses to be faculty, and the faculty:student ratio has to be low for the clinical experiences.

Yes, I understand that that is what has created a bottleneck. Not enough instructors and a relatively fixed student/teacher ratio.

Thanks again for all of the helpful insights!

sorry still cant edit and i hit send too soon

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Based on what I've heard, I will continue to encourage her on this path ... I do think it is a great career choice ... and make sure she understands that there aren't a lot of spots so she needs to continue to do her best, and then be flexible.

gsciencechick, thank you so much for that video. Now I understand the differences a lot better than I did! I’ve forwarded it on to DGD. I’m not sure she has fully investigated her career choice. I hope she will take the time to watch the video.

The clinical sites for training are also a bottleneck!

Work with, and have many friends and family who are nurses. Good advice has already been given. DF is a School of Nursing Dean; had asked the question about admission for another friend and was told the following.

• Keep volunteering in different medical settings (hospital, nursing home, public health clinic, working with different populations adults, peds, elderly, underserved, disabled), get letters of recommendation from nurses, to submit with application.
• Apply to several programs, so if she does not get into one, may get into another.
• Apply to state and non-profit colleges & universities; try to avoid the for-profit schools that are expensive diploma mills (yes, where you graduate from can make a difference in getting a job).
• If she does not get into a program right away, take relevant college courses (A&P, biology, etc.) and get good grades in those courses.
• Consider first taking a nursing assistant or EMT course, get good grades and letter of recommendation from instructor.
• Make an appointment, meet with admissions counselor, ask questions about their program, and how to improve chances of admission (shows level of interest).

Good luck, we need more good nurses!