Going with the Bosch. Everyone else’s prices were as high or higher for a less efficient unit. Plus we’ve worked with the company selling it for a very long time, close to 30 years, starting back when we had a buried oil tank! They’ve always done well by us.

Sharon, I also think that's your best bet given that you have a installing company that has serviced you well in the past and the pay back potential this system has in relation to your climate situation / energy requirements.

Because winter is not so far off, let us know how it turns out. I'm still probably at least a few weeks from installing this at my house. (For completely different reasons as I spelled out above, in case you're a late arrival to this thread.)

I definitely will!

Still a bit early, but so far so good. I'm pretty sure for me it will wind up being around a 50% energy cut. I got the zone system functional just yesterday and may get a chance to use the heating aspects (heat pump) of this system within the next week or two.

I'll go into further detail of the Bosch Inverter in an up coming video that I will post to my youtube channel be sure to subscribe so you don't miss it.

So the Bosch heat pump is in. Took them three days. Should be all good--- but it isn't. The auxiliary heat is coming on every time the blower is on. Temperatures here are in the 40+ range. No way should this be happening. The last day they were here was Saturday and I knew they were in way too big a hurry to get out of here and that something wasn't right when the auxiliary heat came on. Of course they had a dozen reasons reasons why it was fine and just needed to get the temperature up. Now they're coming back today or tomorrow to fix whatever they did wrong.

This stuff makes me so tired. Trying to find people who do things right the first time has become a real struggle. I'm hoping I didn't spend $13,000 in vain here.

I would think the lock out temperature for auxiliary heating would be below 30 degrees. You may have to experiment as to what is the right temperature for your house. What thermostat did the contractor install?

It’s aHoneywell. I talked to the project manager and he said this shouldn’t be happening. Coming out tomorrow to troubleshoot. Every time the aux heat kicks in all I can see is dollar signs flying out the window!

Look on the bright side - it won't be any more than your old baseboard heating until you get it sorted out!

I hope you’re right!

Honeywell makes many types of thermostats. Do you know the model number? Hopefully your installer has chosen the appropriate thermostat, wired and set it up correctly.

The highs this week in south Jersey will be in the 50s, with lows in the mid 30s. I would not expect the auxiliary heat to turn on this week. If it does then the thermostat setting are still not optimum and you are using more electricity than you should be.

Thanks, Austin and Mike. It’s a Vision Pro 8000. I do think it’s the thermostat that’s the problem rather than the unit. They’ll be here this afternoon to take a look at it.

Aaaaaand...they couldn't get out here today. I know things happen, but this is the third time we've had delays with this project. Possibly time to find a new HVAC company....

Call them again and tell them to come ASAP. You should not be spending money on another HVAC company. For $13K you should be getting prompt attention for an installation problem.

The Vision Pro 8000 has many installer setup options. Here is the installation manual if you care to read it.

Does your thermostat display the outdoor temperature? If it does not then then that is going have to be resolved before the lockout temperature can be set.

They’ll be out at 10 am tomorrow. The thermostat does NOT display the outside temperature. I think this might be the answer. I’m sure the problem is in the thermostat. No, I wouldn’t change HVAC installers midstream, but you can bet we’re not paying them until everything is resolved. And I’ll have to think long and hard about using them again.

The information Mike posted is for an older model vision pro 8000 it's features and functions are quite different from the new model.

The newer model is more likely the one you have. There are additional options with the newer model of this thermostat that *may* solve this issue for you provided everything is hooked up / wired properly.

If you don't have the newer model the fix may cost you additional money, in the way of having an outdoor temp sensor installed. This is a 'wired' connection. If wires do not exist, they must be run. That costs money. This is the black magic realm of 'control knowledge'.

Options in the newer model thermostat:

Back up heat droop. This is a setting in which you can select a temperature droop to force the back up heat to 'stay off longer' via differential settings.

Back up heat UP stage timer. This works in conjunction with back up heat droop. If you fail to set the UP stage timer it effectively makes the back up heat droop an ignored function.

(these two functions mentioned above --- set properly --- along with proper installation of the system itself *may* be all you need.)

It is not recommended (BY ANY stretch of the imagination) you make any changes to this system yourself. You shouldn't have to. Use your pro service. If that means getting the owner involved, that's what it means.

The Bosch heat pump shouldn't be locked out in my opinion. It has functions within the heat pump itself to prohibit operation if it gets too cold outside. This heat pump has the ability to produce heat down to around 5 degrees Fahrenheit. It may need *some* back up heat at these lower temps.

It's a stallion of the heat pump realm, let him RUN.

I’m trying lol.

The goal is to keep the expensive electric auxiliary off as much as possible and let the heat pump operate at low temperatures. As Austin Air says, the Bosch is a stallion so it should be able to run as much as possible. The right way to do this is for the thermostat to monitor the outdoor temperature and lock out the auxiliary heat strip at some temperature.

I suspect either there is no outdoor heat sensor, or it is has not been wired properly. Based on what Sharon has posted so far, I am not getting a good feeling about this installer.

I wish I could say I disagreed with you, Mike, but I'm beginning to wonder.

I think the term 'lock out' auxiliary heat is the improper term for a very cold climate area. That is the whole purpose to the droop function and back up heat upstage timer. You're not locking anything out... over time + certain conditions the auxiliary heat will be used if the climate conditions dictate.

I would avoid locking anything out. The idea is 'to minimize' the use of the auxiliary heat function. Under certain conditions you will probably need it in a colder climate. I don't think I would even lock it out in my climate either, if that tells you anything.

The technician came out and rewired the whole thing. Not half an hour after he left, the first technician stopped by and said he thought there might have been a problem with one of the wires, that it was too short So, for better or worse, it's redone and hopefully working as it should.

I am not an expert on the Vision Pro 8000 thermostat and how the droop function works with an inverter heat pump. Therefore there may be better ways to set up the thermostat than I have suggested.

I am a firm believer of using temperature set backs as a way to saving energy costs. Regardless of how of how it is configured, I would want the heat pump to be able to come out of a 4-6 degree set back without turning on the auxiliary heat strips. The Bosch heat pump should be able to do it except on the very coldest days of the year.

Does the thermostat now display the outdoor temperature? Try pushing up the thermostat 1-2 degrees. Does the auxiliary heat turn on immediately?

"Bosch will be my pick however, it is on the high end. Rheem has issues with the humidity though"

Huh???

Seems to be working just fine. One unexpected thing about the heat pump over the baseboard heat is how much more comfortable it is. It seems more even, if that makes sense.

Regardless of how of how it is configured, I would want the heat pump to be able to come out of a 4-6 degree set back without turning on the auxiliary heat strips. The Bosch heat pump should be able to do it except on the very coldest days of the year.

It depends on the operators preference in terms of comfort. A heat pump takes a good amount of time to 'over come' a multi degree set back. The amount of time this takes will depend on how cold it is outdoors / how cold it is indoors. During that time it takes to 'over come' the set back (if any), the supply air will likely feel cold without an auxiliary heat of some kind. For some people this is OK. For some people it is not. (If you maintain a certain set point with no set back this will typically eliminate the cold air feeling you would feel under a 'recovery' type operation without auxiliary heat function.)

How I run mine would likely generate 'it's too cold' complaints, unless it was another 'cold bird' that lived here. As an example I shut mine off at night while in heat mode. Keeping the place cool is more of a challenge.

My system is a 4 zone system. So when it comes to heating 'for me' it's typically only about heating a zone or two to take the deep chill out of it. Not all homes have zone systems so in some cases the way I speak is in relation to 'configuration of the system'. If I was in a colder climate how I run this would probably be a bit more challenging again depending how cold it is outside.

How my system is configured (4 zone system)... removing the chill is much more probable and a much quicker operation. This still varies a bit with the outdoor weather. It's not uncommon for me when it's chilly here to have upwards of an 6 to 10 degree recovery in the zone I want heat. Usually this takes around 15 min to begin and within 30 min it's typically fully recovered or close enough that it doesn't matter. That is without auxiliary heat.

So the 15 min or so this takes to become less chilly from air coming out the vent in one zone area, I am drinking coffee in a different zone of the house.

Once I am dressed I shut the 'heat' system off. Last night I had to run the AC if you can imagine that.

-----------

Sharon glad to hear your system is operational now. Let us know how you make out on the operational costs.

Sharon Perkins, can you provide an update on your Bosch system? I'm looking into it for my own house rebuild. Thanks!

i wont get a full comparison bill until mid January, I'll definitely post then. I can say i love the fact that i don't have to mess around with the baseboard units, and i think the heat is much more even. Even if it doesn't save me much, I love it for those two things!

Should be interesting to see how you make out Sharon...

I am more of a chilly kind of guy but the heat the Bosch puts out --- well there's no comparison in my opinion (compared to electric resistance heating). It's been into the 30's here for lows a few times now --- the real test for me will be upcoming 2020 summer cooling season. I hit a shade over $200 last summer, with the old 14 SEER single speed beater.

With that said, my last electric bill was $51 and some change at 11.6 cents per KWH -- around 400 KW for the month +$5 service charge. Last couple of years this time of the year was around $70 to $80 but I was paying around 10 cent per KWH then.

So I just got my first full month's electric bill And it was actually 2% higher than last year's December-January bill. I've been writing down readings EVERY day, so I checked the reading that the meter reader supposedly got--08138-- against my number for that day--07403. So I called them, took a picture of the current reading-- 07906-- and said that I think the guy read the meter wrong. So she looks it up and---even though it said actual reading on my bill-- it wasn't. It was an estimated reading because the guy, for some reason, left part of our neighborhood incomplete.

Bottom line-- I still don't know if the heat pump is actually saving us money! The bill was $489 compared to $482 for approximately the same time period last year. It should be around $100 less when they adjust the numbers--- I hope.

We keep the house at 70. The heat pump isn't keeping up at night-- i drops down to around 67 in here-- but gets back up to 70 quickly in the morning. It's been in the high teens overnight. I haven't seen the aux heat come on at all.

Aghh!!!! I thought this would simplify my life!

Hmm Sharon, you must live in some ancient land I thought everyone would be on smart meters by now. Yeah it sounds like the meter reader just estimated it. I've had smart meter for years now, so I am spoiled with these constant email updates with power usage and such.

Are you paying the same rate for power as you were the previous year? That can have a big influence as well. I know here my rate over the past couple of years has steadily gone up.

With that said here's a comparison of previous electric bills and you'll see there is not much difference in what I've actually paid... the difference is in this instance the amount I am being charged for the power I am using.

That could be what you're experiencing as well (not to mention the likely estimated bill) --- look at how much power you are using / how much you pay for that power. It can be very deceptive. I am much more comfortable this year, but it's been quite mild here. There have been some issues in terms of humidity for me in running the heat pump but this is mostly due to sudden odd changes in the weather and this crazy climate down here.

High teens over night... yeah for sure that would put it into defrost at some point. Once that happens the indoor out put will suffer --- unless you use the more expensive resistance heat to make up the difference.

Sharon have you told the HVAC contractor your heat pump is not able to maintain a 70 degree temperature? The usual indoor design temperature for the winter is 72 degrees. The outdoor temperature has been about 15 degrees recently. That is cold but still above the outdoor design temperature for southern NJ. The auxiliary heat needs to turn on if you want to be comfortable on cold nights.

Good point about a possible rate hike, Austin. I'm sure the cost has crept up, as it seems to do with everything. No, we don't have smart meters out here in South Jersey! Yes, I can hear when the defrost cycle goes on, it makes kind of a whoosh sound.

Mike, I haven't called the HVAC contractor about the drop. It's around 67 when I get up in the morning.. I don't mind the night drop because I like it a little cooler at night. However, if we get a run of really cold days I do want it to keep up during the day. Maybe I'll give them a call. I'm just so tired of fussing around with this thing!

It is one thing to setback your thermostat at night to 67 in order to be more comfortable. However it is not a good thing if your heat pump is running continuously during the night to try to reach 70 degrees. That is wasting a lot of energy and needs to be addressed. Once you get an actual meter reading on your next bill, you may still be disappointed in the lack of savings.

Mike I believe it's a trade off, because electric resistance heat will cost much more than running an Inverter heat pump even with defrost cycles.

1 strip of 5 KW strip heat runs 20 amps. The heat pump at it's highest setting costs less than 20 amps. In high speed mine draws around 14 amps.

So you could have 4 strips of 5 KW heat --- that amounts to 80 amps. Running the heat pump even with it entering defrost will not come anywhere close to 80 amps of power. This is science, not magic.

Sharon,

Given the climate there -- a trade off may be to heat the home up more in the afternoon early evening hours as the day time temps are typically higher. This may not make much of a difference. There are many variables to consider. A heat pump works by extracting heat out of cold air. The colder that air gets is where the challenge becomes real.

I know you'll see a savings over time. Especially if you refrain from using resistance heat. I also know you want to see this immediately after spending what you spent -- it takes time and because the heat can be a harder to obtain heat due to the climate you're in that adds to the complexity of relearning how you want to operate it.

Remember a heat pump takes heat from outdoor air and brings it inside. Plan around that as much as possible. The higher the temp is outside, performance in heat mode goes up.

Austin, you just hit on why I haven't called the installer back up until this point. (They're actually coming out this afternoon) I don't want to have the aux heat any more than it needs to be. And we haven't had a "really" cold night yet. But if we do, I don't want to wake up to the house being 60 degrees because the heat pump can't keep up.

I also have a new appreciation about the importance of the competence of the individual installer. This heat pump seems to be more complex and to require someone who really knows what they're doing with the settings. I would have thought that this company, who we've worked with for about 30 years, would be supplying that type of installer. But I'm beginning to wonder if they're still in the "learning curve" part of their education on this type of heat pump.

Or maybe the heat pump is learning as it goes!

Well surprise, surprise, the heat pump is working just fine. It was set to drop to 67 between 10 pm and 6 am. Obviously I never looked at the heat pump at those times, so I never realized it was set to drop down overnight.

Yes, I feel like an idiot. I must have made this decision at some point. By the time I got up in the morning, the temperature was set to 70 and it just hadn’t gotten there yet.

I also have a new appreciation about the importance of the competence of the individual installer. This heat pump seems to be more complex and to require someone who really knows what they're doing with the settings. I would have thought that this company, who we've worked with for about 30 years, would be supplying that type of installer.

Yeah exactly. To be fair though I think if I read back thru this thread that it was your company in which you first learned about the Bosch Inverter HP option. Because this machine is a higher cost in the upper realm of equipment available leads me to 'somewhat' believe they know what they are doing... or at least a few of them on staff.

That said, it is a complex machine made even more so by it being a heat pump. Also realize that your company may only have a few people on staff that truly understand these kinds of complexities.

This is completely different for me and my company --- as I am the only face of the company. I am the boss, I am the tech, I am the installer. --- These things are rather rare to find within the HVAC realm -- being a single man operator, that is.

Sharon, I'm glad you posted back with that additional information. If the Bosch is maintaining 67 at night with outdoor temps in the teens --- I would be curious to know if it is doing this without emergency back up heat strips. Because that would be quite impressive.

I wouldn't consider you an idiot, it really is an honest mistake. A heat pump takes time to get used to. Remember it's a science machine. This HVAC business is a business in which someone will never 'know it all'.

Austin, I’ll have to stay up late some cold night and see if the aux heat is coming on lol. I’ll post my next months bill and hope that it won’t also be estimated for any reason. I’ve lived here 18 months and this was the first estimated bill I’ve ever received. Naturally it was the only one that was really important to me.

The estimated billing trick will catch up eventually when they actually read the meter and see you're not using what they think.

Another way to check --- would be to go outside and look at the outside condenser coil like before you go to bed see if there is any ice on it. If it's just frost that alone may not initiate a defrost cycle with this machine.

Typically it's going to take hours of constant run time to initiate a defrost cycle. The defrost parameters are multi tiered, so there's several ways in which it will enter defrost cycle. Where I live I haven't seen it go into defrost. I doubt I will, unless it's like some single 1 in 30 year event down here.

So.........my electric bill this month was $288! The “estimated bill” last month was about 70 kWh higher than my “exact” numbers, which would be about $105. So my bill this month was artificially low by around that much. So this month‘s bill would have been about $400. A big improvement on $658 for the same time period last year!

It has been warmer this year, with an average daily temp of 38 degrees compared to 30 degrees last year. so I still am comparing apples to oranges, to some degree. But I’m happy with the unit and with the numbers so far. I guess it will take a year to really see how much the heat pump saves me.. no matter what, I find it much more comfortable than the baseboard electric units.

Sharon, glad to hear your seeing some good results.

I switched to my new energy provider, but the first bill was just a part of a month bill that was comparable when added to my final bill from my previous electric provider.

So for those two part added bills came up to around $50 for the January bill. Which is comparable to the previous bill I posted. The new electric company is not charging me anything except for power (no service fee, nothing) which is odd. Usually that fee here is at least $4.95 a month, sometimes more.

It's been a little chillier here this past couple of weeks, but nothing extreme - just chilly. I've gotten a weekly report suggesting a $44 bill or so, for February.

The heat this thing pumps out is great. It's really a work of wonder.

I am installing the 2.0 version for a long time customer of mine today, but just AC mode as he has gas heat. The 2.0 version as far as I can tell right now the only differences is 20 SEER efficiency and the unit is a gray color.

The revolution has begun here... it should be interesting how this turns out.

I service the Katy, Texas area for those who are late comers to this thread.

Because? When a 4 ton AC (or whatever size it is -capacity wise- not physical size of the unit) runs it is doing the same amount of work. That doesn't cut operational costs.

An inverter (fully variable runs based on load being put on it) which will drop operational costs because it is only doing the work you require it to do. So paired with a 'properly' zoned system --- the difference is? reduced humidity, better comfort... a feeling. Picture an autumn day, the air is crisp. Nearly everyone alive knows that feeling. Now imagine that inside your home. Yeah, game changer!

How much will this save me? Stay tuned... by the end of the summer 2020 I should have a 'cool' story to tell.

My next bill will be available in the next week and I'm actually looking forward to it. Lucky you, running the air already!

Hi Sharon,

Looking forward to seeing that.
I'll only consider myself truly lucky if the 80 degree weather here has killed the lunacy virus here, as I need to pick up some groceries sometime this coming week.

Wish me some additional luck? LOL.

A little sneak peek how we're looking so far running primarily in AC mode.

That's a nice breakdown!

So the bill actually turned out to be cheaper than $43 bucks!?

Still not much difference compared to the other single speed AC. The difference in operational cost for March is due mostly to the electric price dropping.

But in a couple of months things should get interesting. Last year May I used over 1,000 KWH with the old single speed beater.

In terms of comfort? It knocks it out of the park.

Personally, at Cajun AC Repair, we're repaired far fewer Rheems. If you're taking a poll

Cajun for your info, this Bosch Inverter I installed at my house replaced a Rheem.

How's that for irony?

There isn't a brand out there that doesn't break... don't kid yourself.

Does this mean the Bosch Inverter is for everyone? No. It's a choice just like anything else.

This is just an elaborate example that shows how much I am saving in operational costs. By August this year that picture will become more clear.

Electric bill comparison for April 2020 compared with April 2018.

Notes: Bosch 18 SEER Inverter version 1.0 configured as 4 ton compared to Rheem single speed 4 Ton 14 SEER AC.

Electric rates: difference of 0.02 cents between the two comparison bills.
Run Time set points: The inverter is run much more frequently and at lower temps than I otherwise ran the single speed beater.

My previous March 2020 bill was $38 so this is also about being 'comfortable' and not just about trying to squeeze or make the lowest possible electric bill. 'In other words, I am not trying to skew things.'

The Bosch is getting a work out... I can tell you that much!