Notching above a bud. Has anyone tried this?

4 years ago

I first heard of notching above a bud to start a shoot forming from that bud from a YT video I have linked below. Its short, so do take a look.

The motivation is to have growth where the rose seems naked and leggy.

I had to try it.

(Later, I am reading, fruit growers do this too to create branches where they want on their fruit trees.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5cYbAcguo4

I chose eight buds among 3 of my roses. My no name rambler, Marchesa Bocella and ZD. I chose to notch in the bare leggy areas among really old wood and medium greenish wood.

AND I got two buds out of those eight to start shoots. Of course it could be entirely coincidental, I will share my thoughts below. I dont have a control. I did not think about controls too much at the time. As soon as I saw the video I ran out and did it with only a little bit of reflection, like where would I want to do this? (What would a control be for such an experiment anyway?)

I got a shoot on Marchesa Bocella

The bud:

The notch above the bud, cut on July 24th:

Then on August 3rd and Aug 8th:

There was another bud just below this one this one 90 degrees to it that I notched at the same time but nothing happened there:

I also got a shoot on my rambler:
here is the bud, also cut on July 24:

(I lost the picture of the notched bud right afterwards)

here is the notched bud with the shoot on Aug 9th.

Here are some notched buds that did not do anything:

Two woody area on my rambler:

Two green-wood (if there is such a classification) areas:

2 out of eight, 25% success rate, not bad for about 15 mins of work which includes taking pictures.

Is this real? Could it be better, higher probability? These are my thoughts:

1) Maybe 25% success is just about the odds for this procedure?

2) I did not know a thing about what I was doing, how the notch is supposed to be cut, (very true), and just got lucky with those 2 buds. Could be, and so the odds can be better with practice.

3) Two of the buds were on very old wood and additionally I think those two buds were not notched correctly at all. Both of which took the odds down.

4)The shoots emerging just there could be a total coincidence. But maybe not, for at least these 2 reasons: 1) The area (of the canes) had been resistant to shoots emerging and now there are shoots just at those two notched buds and 2) The buds emerged and grew almost exactly at the same time (see the growth on Aug 8th/9th after being cut on July 24th). Suggests those two shoots maybe temporally from the same physiological trigger and are on the same schedule.

5) I think the hormonal balance in the roses now is leaning toward shoot growth and not bud expansion. Doing this much earlier in the season, when the plant's balance is towards bud expansion, might give more positives even on older wood.

I find this is neat, specially if I can learn to get better odds. Who wouldn't want growth on bare areas?
Now Aug 31, the shoots are over 14 inches long, full of leaves, perfectly normal, not deformed at all if there was a concern that this process could create something funky.

Featured Answer

malcolm_manners

4 years ago

Yes it works well. You could probably increase your success rate by making your notch a bit wider. We use it on bud-grafted roses to force the scion bud to grow.

Here is how/why it works: In a normal, uninjured stem, the top (growing shoots, younger leaves) is constantly sending auxin (a hormone, indole-3-acetic acid) DOWN, toward the roots. Auxin stimulates strong root growth. But as it passes behind those dormant side buds, it also gives them the message "don't grow yet." At the same time, the roots are sending cytokinin (another hormone, mostly zeatin, but also perhaps some dihydrozeatin) UP, toward the shoot tips. That hormone says to dormant buds "grow now!" So in the uninjured stem, those side buds are being told to grow, and not to grow, at the same time. Mostly of them will stay dormant, but once in a while, one of them grows, when the balance is right. By notching above a bud, you stop the auxin (the "don't grow" signal), so that the only message arriving to the bud is the "grow now" message of the cytokinin. This is also why, as soon as you prune a cane, the top bud or two immediately start to grow -- you've removed the source of auxin from above. In this case, you are tricking the side bud into "thinking" it is the top bud, by cutting off the auxin flow.

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Comments (43)

rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
4 years ago
This is an excellent discussion you have started. Good pics to illustrate, too. More of this is needed here.

How much cane is there, and how many buds are there, above each of the 2 buds that produced shoots?

Any discussion on the YT video as too why it may work? I haven’t viewed it yet.
katyajini thanked rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
seil zone 6b MI
4 years ago
Fascinating! This is something I've never heard of before. It would be very useful for climbers that get those bare bottoms all the time. I'll have to wait until next spring now but I think I'll give this a try.
katyajini thanked seil zone 6b MI
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Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
4 years ago
I think bart has done this too.
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
4 years ago
Thank you for that explanation. How do do it exactly when you want to Force the Sion bud to grow. On bud grafted roses?
roseseek
4 years ago
You would simply "damage" the shank above the bud/graft, treating it as if it is a natural growth bud in the cane you wish to trigger.
katyajini thanked roseseek
mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
4 years ago
This is absolutely fascinating! I just love these kinds of posts. So educational. Thank you Katy for finding the video and posting this. Thank you all for your responses. Guess who is going to go out and try this (well not when it is over 100 F) but I will be trying this in the spring.

I guess I have a question on this. Does time of year make a difference? Better to do in the spring when the new growth won't freeze? I probably answered my own question, but we rarely get freezes where I live so it is not the foremost thing on my mind.
katyajini thanked mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
seil zone 6b MI
4 years ago
I think it's a matter of climate, MBN. I wouldn't want to force new growth now because winter is right around the corner. Most new growth I get now won't have time to harden off before winter and I'll lose it. Better for me to wait for spring when they'll have plenty of time to grow before winter comes again.

In a warm climate summer heat is the bigger problem. It might be better to do it in the fall in that case.
katyajini thanked seil zone 6b MI
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
4 years ago
This is fascinating! I will definitely start testing this on any bare spot that needs filling to see how it works.
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
4 years ago
Malcom: you indicate making the notch a bit wider will increase success rate. To be clear: by wider, do you mean more vertical height (to the notch), as opposed to more circumferentially around the cane?

Do these cytokinins move laterally at all in a cane? Does a notch doom any dormant buds vertically above a notch by preventing them from receiving any “grow” cytokinins from below?
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
rifis:

For MB: I made the two cuts on the oldest, biggest cane and the shoot came from the bud that is maybe 1/8, 4 inches, up from the base. The other bud was just below this one. There are many buds above it.

For the rambler the cane is relatively younger and is looooong. That bud is at about 5 feet from the ground and there are innumerable buds above.

I appreciate the merits of your question.

The person in the video, in his on words, said the same thing Malcolm said. The bud gets tricked into thinking its at the top and must grow as the auxin is diminished. However he does not show what happened subsequently to the cuts he made. And none of the comments say that they 'notched' and got shoots.

What I understand Malcolm is saying about making the cut wider is it should cover more of the circumference of the stem. More of a mote effect around the bud to really block the auxin. But not the circumference entirely because you still want the cytokines to move upwards. This makes sense to me. Lets see what he says.

Seil and mustbnuts: This is so interesting to me too and so much fun plus so much potential for our gardening endeavors.

When I did the little experiment I felt I had nothing to lose, just wanted to see if it works. If an young shoot died during the winter, oh well. Now I would I definitely would do this in spring. Both because the shoot would have the whole season to mature and I 'think' the plants chemistry will favor buds expanding in spring.

On a practical note I used my paring knife. It is sharp but not sharp enough. You need something sharper and thinner like a scalpel or razor blade. Non-sterile scalpels are dirt cheap, as low as 1 cent a piece depending on the quality and one will do the whole project.

Folks if you try this out, just one request. Comment on this thread how it was for you. Lets compare notes. Different people, different plants, different climates....it will be good to know!
malcolm_manners
4 years ago
Rifis -- yes, I meant more of the circumfrence of the stem; not higher on the stem. I usually don't cut deeply into the wood; rather, I cut just through the bark and peel it away. That wound heals over nicely in 6 months or so.

As for cytokinins moving around the stem -- yes, the phloem (vascular tissue) has anastomoses (free "dinner party" vocabulary word of the day!), so that materials moving up or down through the stem are also slowly spiraling around the stem. Notice that the next bud directly above the one you notched is 5 nodes above. Always. The four intervening ones are NOT lined up with the notched bud (although if you make a really wide notch, you could go under the next one).
katyajini thanked malcolm_manners
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
4 years ago
Thank you.

The “next bud directly above a reference bud is 5 nodes above. Always” is my (learned) “pearl” of the year. Excellent.
malcolm_manners
4 years ago
Yes plants tend to attach their leaves in a Fibonacci series fraction (just like snail shell spirals and the spiral arms of galaxies). Roses use the 2/5 fraction, meaning that the leaves spiral around the stem, going around twice for every 5 leaves, then arriving back at the same vertical line as where they started. So leaf 6 is over leaf 1, leaf 7 is over 2, etc. Perhaps I should not have said "always." Mistakes are made. But in normal, healthy growth, that's the pattern you should see.
katyajini thanked malcolm_manners
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Malcolm thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

After your explanations so many things are falling into place in my mind.

So when you notch but do not get the bud to grow why is that? You did not notch properly? ie not enough of the auxin is blocked out above and/or not enough of the cytokinins are pooling at the bud from below? Is it something else? What is the best way to notch?

Thanks for the tip about spiraling presentations of buds!
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Sheila: who is bart and does he do?
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
4 years ago
Bart is a female artist who lives in Italy and knows a lot about plants. I think it might have been her mentioning this technique.
katyajini thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
malcolm_manners
4 years ago
Katyajini, Sometimes the actual bud is missing, and there's nothing there to grow. But I would agree that there are cases where there is an obvious bud, and it fails to grow anyway. Assuming you've done everything right, I don't have a good explanation for why the bud would still fail to grow. Of course that happens when pruning as well -- sometimes it will be the second bud down that grows; not the first.
katyajini thanked malcolm_manners
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Thank you Malcolm! I can understand that now that you say it.

Do you have recommendation for a good text book or some book to learn plant physiology? Like plant physiology 100 and/or 101? This is so interesting and I am kind of groping in the dark.
malcolm_manners
4 years ago
Katyajini -- there may be a very good book out there, but I'm not sure. Several years ago, we quit assigning a text for our plant physiology class, because none of the available books seemed to cover precisely the topics we wanted. It would be good to have a "Plant Physiology for Horticulturists," and I've long threatened to write it. But after 30+ years, I realize it won't likely get written. Too much of the other aspects of life get in the way. Hartmann's Plant Science, by McMahon and Kofranek, is pretty good, and we do use it in our introductory Horticultural Science class. But of course it doesn't get too deep into pure physiology or biochemistry. So it's spotty as to whether it will answer specific questions on how a plant does things.
katyajini thanked malcolm_manners
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Malcolm: I do hope you write it! My dad became hugely creative and productive after he retired at 76 when most of the hum drum things of life were out of the way. He got done many of the things he always wanted to do but could not find time for before. I am routing for you. :)
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
4 years ago
Campanula was one who was doing this technique I read as I bumbled around this site. I wish she would offer a comment.
katyajini thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
totoro z7b Md
4 years ago
This technique is exciting but I am worried about causing wounds that allow entrance of diseases. Is there any way to minimize this risk other that sterilizing the blade? I already seem to have so much random die back during the growing season which I am assuming is due to diseases.
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Malcolm: I am reading over what I wrote. In no way did I mean to imply, you are retiring, or old, or are in your seventies. Just that even though many years are gone there is still so much life left do the things you are inspired to!

totoro: good question and very important. I certainly did not worry about it but that does not mean one should not precautions. I did notice however that even by the next day the cut had healed, or was dry if that means anything. I did not notice any infection in any of the cuts. Lets see what others have to say.
cyndita (west coast zone 9)
4 years ago
Interesting thread, thank you for sharing (& experimenting)!
katyajini thanked cyndita (west coast zone 9)
malcolm_manners
4 years ago
Katyajini -- no offense taken, and in fact, I had not even read it that way. Yes, maybe some day.
katyajini thanked malcolm_manners
toolbelt68
4 years ago
Hey Katyajini, I'm a male.... you said 'she' in one of your posts concerning me. But your AA Tea made up for it...lol This latest post of yours is great!!!! Never too old to learn..... I'm saving Malcolm's explanation so come Spring I can create even more new growth on my ZDs. Keep bringing new info to this forum.
katyajini thanked toolbelt68
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
toolbelt: I am so sorry! I have no idea why I thought you were of the female persuasion, no idea. I know better now. I am having a lot of fun and very happy to share. Its great that you, and some others here like this kind of stuff....

Sheila, I was thinking and I want to thank you. You truly remember the the people here not just the information they post. I like that.
toolbelt68
4 years ago
Like I said your AA Tea made up for it Katyajini. I've now got new growth that is close to a yard high!!! Come Spring all of my 60 ZDs are getting a shot of AA Tea, even the new ones!!! I agree that the folks on this forum aren't just here to get information, they get involved with you. From the cradle to the grave you have friends here!!! We do need a way to inform everyone when the bell is rung for one of us.
katyajini thanked toolbelt68
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
4 years ago
I know, toolbelt! Everyone here is really a friend and rosey friends are the best!!! Sometimes spouses have come on to give us the sad news and it's as if one of my own family died, but other times we're just left to wonder.
katyajini thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
4 years ago
After her experience with bart, it’s very understandable why katyajini thought toolbelt is female.
katyajini thanked rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Love, love, love being here.
Ken Wilkinson
4 years ago
VERY interesting and information filled post. I'm going to give this a try on one of my Let Freedom Ring bush's tomorrow.
mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
4 years ago
OK folks, where is this AA tea recipe and how do I make it?
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Its a loooong thread, the recipe is at the top.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5749417/what-is-your-opinion-experience-with-alfalfa-and-aa-tea-qs#24406839
rifis (zone 6b-7a NJ)
4 years ago
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5787243/fall-is-mean-bee-time#n=12

please forgive me, katyajini
mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
4 years ago
Thank you Katy and Rifis! Katy, I have to tell you when I was scrolling to the top of the post, I too thought the pictures were of cupcakes and was wondering why someone was taking pictures of them! LOL! This low carb, no sugar diet must have me crazy!
katyajini thanked mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
mustbnuts: so glad someone else saw cupcakes in that line-up of gallon jugs filled with aa tea. I am going to pull a rifis on you: When I realized how mistaken I was I thought I mustbnuts!

rifis: why are you asking my forgiveness? what did you do? I must have missed it? I apologized to Malcolm in case he thought I assumed he is old and you thought that was funny? No problem, I dont think you ever mean harm. I just did not want to be misunderstood.

toolbelt: Now I realize where and why I came to call you a she. It was when I saw your gallon jugs of aa tea I thought they were cupcakes. With mindless stereotyping I though you must be a woman since you posted a picture of cupcakes that you must have baked. So many assumptions! Sorry!
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
4 years ago
And I thought my vision was bad! Lol! :-)
mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
4 years ago
Katy, that is so funny!
mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
4 years ago
I thought they were cupcakes with a cherry on top! LOL!
mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
4 years ago
See, great minds think alike!
katyajini
Original Author
4 years ago
Yup, cupcakes with cherries on top!

Notching above a bud. Has anyone tried this?

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