First off your cabinets are beautiful.

The end panel for your fridge is correct. If that were to be solid wood they would have to glue together 8-9'(or whatever your height) lengths of wood that are 3" or so inches each and then plane it down to make the panel. That would be very costly and also susceptible to warping.

Now for the side of the upper cabinet. That is also standard. An upgrade would be to have a finished end which is to add another door so it looks the same as the front. It sounds like that is what the cabinet maker is doing. If you don't want to give up the 3/4" (I had the same concern in my kitchen) then leave as is. It looks great.

Why would you ever want to refinish a kitchen cabinet. If they are quality and you take care of them, they should last 20 years or more.

Logs for veneer are selected for the ascetic value. The whole log is sliced and the leaves are bundle together. When this is laided up onto a substrate it all matches . Color, grain. The only thing I would insist on is high quality architectual grade veneer. Would not do soiid wood doors ever. Planks are mismatch and will warp and split eventually. Was at a veneer company just yesterday. One of the best in LA.. None of what I saw there could be done with solid wood. Agree with everything Green Designs said above also.

Re-read you post. You don't have correct information. Full overlay does not have face frames and there is no such thing as plastic face frames. You may be talking about edge banding which is something different.

cpartist, designs, colors and preferences change over time. While the easiest option is to paint the cabinets for a different look 15 years down the line, I like wood. Therefore, I want to have the option to refinish if the need arises.

aziline thanks for sharing your experience.

It still doesn't answer my question on the solid panel on the other side of the fridge. If that panel is installed, then it is expected to hold good. So, why cant the same thing be done on the counter top side? Both sides are bound to have the same issues, why is it okay for one side of the fridge and not the other?

The cabinet maker is not installing another door on the panels between range hood - wasn't planned that way. But I expected solid wood on the side instead of a plywood with veneer. I don't think I have 1-1/2" to spare now - it is already designed for the hood.

Given that I am getting a gas stove with high BTUs, I wonder how long these veneers / glue will hold up with heat and steam from cooking before starting to peel.

live_wire_oak Thanks. I am NOT a pro on anything construction related, not sure how I got that tag on my user ID.

jdesign_gw I see what you mean. What I received was edge-band on laminated maple plywood box.

Before signing the contract, what I was shown in the woodworker's shop was a face fame made to match the wood of the door and applied on the cabinet box - it was screwed from behind and glued so that the front was clean and all matched seamlessly. In fact this is how it is done on the backside of the peninsula facing the family room. They didn't do it inside the kitchen uppers and lowers and are going to fix it.

Here’s a photo

Pull back and show a bigger picture. Of the doors too. The veneered box edges aren’t faceframes. Do you understand the differences in frameless and framed cabinet construction?

Everything I’ve tried to type here ends up sounding snarky, so I’m just going with this: You’re overreacting. I know you’re upset, but it’s unjustified. Listen to what people are telling you, and educate yourself a little more before you go in too hot to the cabinet company.

The little photo you provided looks gorgeous. 99.9% of people would be thrilled. Puzzled why you won’t provide more photos. I too think you are misinformed.

“not sure how I got that tag on my user ID”

The way you get “Pro” next to your Houzz name is by you clicking on the box provided for “Professional Profile” on your profile page.

“I am getting a gas stove with high BTUs, I wonder how long these veneers / glue will hold up with heat and steam from cooking before starting to peel.”

You should be getting a proper hood exhaust, with correctly-sized hood and ducting, and ensure your range is installed so that its oven door sits proud of the base cabinets on either side. If you are doing those things, I don’t see why you’d be worried that your range’s heat will affect your cabinetry. Perhaps you need to turn your attention to these items, which might be bigger issues than your concerns in your OP.

You have frameless cabinets. Adding a 3/4" frame on top of the boxes seems...strange? What is the purpose? If it's a small kitchen and space is at a premium, you are not improving anything by converting your frameless cabinets to faceframe cabinets.

A flat solid wood panel of a significant size will warp over time. A cabinet door of the same size will generally not warp because it gets its stability from the stiles and rails of the door. If I were selling you these cabinets and you insisted on a solid wood end panel, my warranty for this product would be voided. This means, when this panel eventually warps, you'll have no recourse but to replace it and the Walnut grain/color will likely not match the rest of the cabinets. Your cabinet supplier is trying to help you here. You should listen.

Is the photo above showing the refrigerator panel with an adjacent upper cabinet door butted up to it? Does the upper cabinet door open ok? Will the cabinet door pull hit the refrigerator panel?

Sounds like some confusion in terminology. Kristin is right...you have frameless cabinets. And your frameless cabinets look absolutely beautiful and about as perfect as one can get when making cabinetry. Also the terms 'solid wood' and 'all wood'....totally different. Many times cabinet doors are listed as 'solid wood'..so don't confuse that with the whole cabinet box and all. And technically an "all wood" cabinet can have plywood or engineered wood as part of it....so don't let that term throw you off either. No one makes solid wood cabinets, box and doors both. They just don't. There is a history on cabinets and construction, and I won't bore you with the details. But in a nutshell, certain manufacturing and assembly have made cabinets stronger. There's no need or expense for SOLID WOOD throughout. In fact, as others have pointed out, solid end panels can warp and fail. The only thing you might have a valid complaint about is if you ordered FRAMED cabinets but got FRAMELESS. Neither will have solid wood side panels.

^^^ Username checks out.

This cabinetmaker uses the same frame width for both framed and frameless to maximize usable space. So, its not like getting a special treat because frameless showed up. Also, like I said, I paid him 30% extra and one of the reasons was that he showed faceframe in real wood. Frameless was never discussed and was not an option for me.

The kitchen this home came with had edge / veneer peel off in different places over time, so my concern is valid. My kitchen is used regularly and heavily, its not just a show piece. Spending over 100K for a kitchen remodel, I expect it to last a long time. While some of you may be comfortable with edge band and / or veneer, it is not for me. Like I said earlier, to each their own. Please respect that just like I respect your willingness to use these materials. That said, the cabinetmaker has already agreed to fix this. Its not an ideal situation, but I am settling for it.

Thanks for the explanation on doors and how they are made sturdy. When I said solid, I didn't mean 2 feet wide wood in once piece. I meant the same material as the door on either side of the fridge, but without the same design as the door (something like a slab door?). Clearly, the terminology in the industry is different and I am not a master in these things. But at the same time, I know what I saw in the shop floor and what we agreed to.

That said, I also have a lot of respect for the cabinetmaker, which is why we hired him. This is why he is already getting more projects from us. But, it is in my interest to get guidance from others who have been through this experience before and hence this post. However, some of your judgmental attitude is appalling to say the least, particularly when you don't know all the details.

Kristin Petro Interiors, Inc. Yes, it is strange to add a frame now, because at this point it is only solving what I asked for and expected. If it had been built properly the first time as a face frame cabinet, this wouldn't be an issue. Now its just a workaround to meet the commitment.

Rainbow Butterfly Kitten Unicorn "Your cabinet maker probably regrets taking this job." Seriously? Is this how you talk to someone who is humbly looking for guidance? If you have nothing good to say, then don't say. And how do you know what he is thinking? Do you think I am here asking for guidance if I have already given him a hard time? Has it occurred to you that I am collecting facts and getting my opinions validated or checked before I demand anything more on the veneered panels with him? Has it occurred to you that I paid for something specific and paid a premium for that and what I got is different and that I am here trying to make sense of the cabinet world, which is not my forte? Your words have impact - use them wisely and be kind. Do not casually throw around remarks like that. You don't live in my shoes. I am trying to understand the cabinetmaker's point of view before saying anything - so I am trying to get in his shoes. An anonymous and lovely user name doesn't make up for the attitude. Like I already told someone earlier, keep your adjectives to yourself.

@zsmith - yes you are correct :-) It is showing what you described and it opens okay. The cabinetmaker is also good with these things, I am sure he will fix those if there any issues.

The Kitchen Place Yes, certainly terminology is an issue. But like a clarified a few times already and mentioned in my original post, I am not looking for everything in solid. I signed off on maple box.

Shannon_WI Thank you. Yes, I am getting a powerful custom range hood with external blowers. Because I have lived through the previous kitchen peeling off in different cabinets, I am cautious about veneer.

Only the cabinet box is installed and some doors in the uppers. Rest are all left hanging as they are waiting for the drawer boxes to arrive. This is my first time renovating a kitchen - I am surprised that not all pieces are in place on the same day. I would have expected them to spend 2-3 consecutive days or a week to install and be done. In fact, we checked with them before demolishing the last functional pieces of the kitchen (stove and sink) two days before install to see if they are still on plan. We have been in waiting mode for 10 days now. But it is hard to deal with trades in our area these days with so much remodeling going around - every trade is tied up for months with many projects in the backlog. We have accepted this as a short term inconvenience for what I am hoping is my only kitchen renovation ever ;-)

Thanks everyone for your inputs. Its good to get your perspectives.

Without seeing your contract or a photo of his showroom examples, all we can do is try to educate you on terms and the industry...and hope that you and the cabinetmaker can work it out. Misunderstandings can happen. For some reason, your cabinetmaker thought you wanted frameless. I don't know why that is. A signing off on a maple box doesn't mean a SOLID box... frameless boxes can have a maple wood interior too. Maple box doesn't necessarily mean the entire box is solid maple. So now it comes down to managing expectations. I agree we should all be kind...and that's what I'm trying to offer you. :-)

Start by switching to metrics ;-) And while you are at it, practice noticing what I said - the cabinet box is the same width for both framed and frameless.

Only the EXTERIOR width is the same between framed and frameless cabinets. The interior width, aka usable space, drops by 18-28%, depending on how many drawer bases that you have. More drawers equals more loss of space. The job will need to be virtually redone, so much will need to change.

You have several industry experts in this thread with combined hundreds of years of experience. I assure you that we know far better than you how cabinets are constructed, as well as how wood behaves. We want everyone to have a kitchen that they are thrilled with, and that functions for decades and decades. We are trying to save you from yourself. You might slow down and appreciate that if everyone who has expert level subject knowledge tells you that you are wrong, you aren’t likely to be right.

I appreciate that you aren’t happy. You weren’t given enough education about the whys on the front end. Maybe you brushed over the discussion, I don’t know. Seems likely given the evolution of the thread that you want what you want, regardless if it’s a bad idea. As a professional, I wouldn’t be happy with the parameters that you set forth for your job and would have attempted to teach you, before declining. The confidence of ignorance is too much to be overcome.

Good luck, and one last piece of advice. Hire a top quality HVAC company to create pinpoint unvarying humidity levels in your home. You’re going to need that to prolong the life of your cabinets.

I'll claim thirty plus years of that experience. With that said the incorrect use of terms and lack of cabinet building knowledge is confusing this whole discussion although many of the issues raised still stand. Two pictures show are of different construction. Fist thing is there is no face frame construction. The picture showing the open box with slides is: pre-finished maple plywood boxes with walnut edge tape and Blum tandem undermout slides with a set back of 3mm for full overlay drawers. Top picture is a walnut veneered inset door with a solid walut mitered frame attached to the same walnut veneered plywood finished side. Not shown but from your description is in some places the cabinet maker is banding the front of the maple boxes with solid walnut material thick enough for him to use pockets screws diagonally from behind. On that he is still covering with a full overlay door. Besides being a total waste of his time and your money I've only even seen solid banding done on shelf faces and with glue and micro pins. Edge tape done properly today does not fail so no one needs to do it that way. As far as your original question only he can answered that. It might be for the reason of being close to the cooking surface but opposite of what you stated about veneer failing more of the solid wood warping. Hot pressed veneer done by a real company (and there's a few in the Bay Area that I've used) if that's what he's using it will be fine.

live_wire_oak thanks for sharing your thoughts. I want to address your note in two parts:

First, Appreciate your professional opinion and sharing your opinion. I haven't pushed my cabinet maker to change the veneer panels. I am using this forum to learn and form my opinions. You are assuming that I am inflexible. I am reaching out to this forum for the very reason that there are people who are more knowledgeable in this than I ever want to be so that I can frame my opinion.

Second, I do not appreciate your lack of professionalism whatsoever. I am glad you are NOT my cabinet maker. Your high and mighty attitude might serve with other customers. Good for you. Seriously, you feel good about saying these things? Makes you feel important?

1. We are trying to save you from yourself.

2. The confidence of ignorance is too much to be overcome.

If this makes you feel important, good for you! Take it elsewhere, not with me.

People travel from far away cities and countries to meet with me and hear my opinions in my profession. Despite that, I would never talk to anyone like this. Humility, admitting what I don't know, knowing when to ask for help and staying humble has served me well. I hope I never speak the way some of you are speaking here.

Be kind people.

Hey Ria, I hope you are getting the information you need. I have built custom vanities for my house and I spent a lot of time researching the best practices available for quality cabinets. I used cabinet-grade plywood with mahogany veneer and mahogany edgebanding. in a frameless cabinet (as shown in your pictures) this is best practice and is not cutting corners. Anytime you start having a very wide section of wood, you want to shift to veneered plywood or veneered mdf. these products are super stable and will not warp. Solid wood can warp and crack. So, if your door was solid wood (whole door, not just the frame) you could expect that it would not close properly over time. Solid would should be reserve for specific purposes where it is best like furniture legs. My vanities have solid mahogany legs. Each product is suited to it's own place. That being said, I love wood. I love the first picture you showed of your cabinets. They look fantastic. Can you provide all your photos below (just everything is together)? There is definitely some confusion about face frames and frameless. Can you provide any examples of how you were hoping they would turn out?

I just read through this thread and actually gasped at some of the inaccuracies I've read here - even as numerous comments have tried to clarify the OP's misconceptions about cabinet construction. There are indeed differences within the industry, but there are some very basic terms and concepts that are just plain wrong here (e.g., "I understand that the cabinet box is sturdier with maple laminate interiors - that's why I signed off on it.").

Ria, I know you're sensitive to tone, and in all kindness I recommend you re-read any and all suggestions to do some basic reading on cabinet construction, parts and terminology. Here is a suggested page: https://www.home-style-choices.com/kitchen-cabinet-construction.html (It's not perfect in every way but covers the basics).

john_bailey008 thanks for the note and sharing your experience. This helps. I am making peace with veneer, hoping history is not going to repeat itself. Would hate to see that I put in new cabinets that ended up just like the old one it replaced. I’ll get that warranty in writing from the cabinet maker and hopefully he’ll be around when the need arises.

What I was expecting was a solid wood frame instead of the edge band - same width, but solid 3/4 material. I think the cabinet maker said something like Eurostyle, where the usable interior space was the same like a frameless cabinet. But you get the benefit of a frameless but with the frame.

For the veneered panels, I was expecting the same material as the door minus the design. It’s been 10 days since the cabinet box install and the veneer doesn’t grow on me - I gave it some time to see if it will pass before asking here. It doesn’t sound like it’s worth taking it up with the cabinet maker. I wish we could put some door panels at least in the visible areas instead of the whole thing.

Here's an example. They are not my cabinet supplier:

https://minthillcabinets.com/our-cabinets/

Full Overlay: Very similar to Euro cabinets in appearance, Full Overlay cabinets offer many of the same benefits as Euro. These cabinets have a frame but the frame widths are minimized to maximize usable space.

Here are some additional photos to help (some are prior to installation). these are birch plywood with mahogany veneer and edgebanding, but the feet are solid. So far not even a hint of peeling and we even had a pipe burst in one of them.

Ria, So your cabinetmaker does framed/full overlay but minimizes the frame size for maximum storage benefits? And that is what you wanted vs the frameless with veneer edgebanding? That I understand. It's unfortunate that there was some miscommunication along the way about this.

John, those cabinets are stunning! I love the frameless inset style. I wish one of my cabinet lines offered that.

john_bailey008 thanks for sharing. Nice cabinets. Glad to hear it survived water damage.

Question to the pros (Ria, your post just made me question this...this is not to add to your worries): walnut changes color as it ages...will the veneer and the solid parts change color the same way? Just wondering if in 7 years the different materials will still look cohesive?

As opposed to wood like Cherry, walnut will lighten, not darken. Walnut has so many varied colors/tones that I don't think the differences as it ages will be significant. This is a question for furnture/cabinet makers.

Here is some info from room & board's website: https://www.roomandboard.com/blog/2015/03/wood-changes-color-time/

Walnut

New walnut has a consistent dark brown color but as it gets older it does two things. 1) Unlike maple and cherry, it gets lighter and 2) a rich honey color starts to come through the grain. These beauties are our new Davis table (left) and a Corbett table (right), which is about four years old.

Pro tip

Color changes tend to be the most dramatic in the first year, even in the first few months. Here’s a tip from our (unfortunate) experience: move items around on your new wood furniture so you don’t get spots that are darker or lighter. If this happens to you, don’t panic—because the color keeps changing, the contrast will even out with time.

luckyblueeye Thanks for pointing it out. Yes, I am aware that walnut will change color and in fact, looking forward to it. We love the grains on the walnut. But the wood is a bit dark for our taste (some doors more than others), so I am hoping that it will lighten up over time :-) I read that Butternut has similar grains and it is lighter, but it is not as strong.

The Kitchen Place yes, you are right. This method maximizes the interior space and gives what I am looking for. In fact, this was the suggestion from the cabinet maker early on. Other than the 3/4 increase in depth, there shouldn't be any change to the drawers, doors, etc. Sure, it wont be 100% optimized (because of the extra 3/4 depth through out, but I am okay with it.

...

"This method maximizes the interior space and gives what I am looking for. In fact, this was the suggestion from the cabinet maker early on. Other than the 3/4 increase in depth, there shouldn't be any change to the drawers, doors, etc."

Just for clarity. Full overlay doesn't maximize space. I don't care what size you make the stiles, you still have the mid rails.

This is why full overlay fell out of style and European frameless has gained popularity. The advantage of face frame cabinets is that you can subdivide cabinets, So you can use four 15" doors on a 60" cabinet. Since large subdivided cabinets are not as popular today (largely because drawers are so much more popular) there is no reason to use full overlay at all.

There are hybrids with stiles but no rails, but those are inlay rather than overlay.

As for drawers not changing... the drawer hardware has to be moved. Also you are giving up 3/4 of an inch of kitchen and giving up 3/4 of extra drawer depth that should accompany it and increasing the cost of counters (probably very slightly).

I think the problem here is that you don't really grasp the difference between framed and frameless cabinetry, and therefore, your issues/comments make no sense to the experts. I'm by no means one of those, but I have to wonder why you would deliberately add framing which will reduce usable space in a space-starved kitchen. Frameless is definitely the better option for functionality when space is at a premium.

I think the side panel of your cabinets is wood veneer. Which is fine. Even the most expensive wood cabinets will only have solid wood on doors, frame . The box itself will be laminate. It will be very heavy to have entire wood box to hang.

It’s been a few years since the kitchen remodel. Some edge tapes peeled off - once in about two years and once recently - in different places. The places where wood (not veneer or veneer tape) were used are holding great. Despite what experts recommend, I hope this helps someone else in the future as they make their decision.