Water heaters tank vs tankless
Diane Sacchetti
4 years ago
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tankless vs high recovery tank water heater for 4200 sq rancher
Comments (10)Be careful with the first hour ratings. On a 100 gal tank you will get about 70-75 gallons of hot on that first load. You then get the balance of the first hr rating over that first hr. For the kind of lay-out you suggest I think you should split the house up into two systems and try to centralize each tank to its load. That minimized pipe losses with the recirc, and yours will be substantial. The very best recirc system is the Metlund Design system. It complies best with all the new Title 24 regs. You will need 3/4" insulation on your hot piping. Again T24. Be very careful with the pex sizing. I re-piped with Uponor and the brass fitting here in the Foothills of N CA. There is a bushing affect on the fittings. The ID of 1/2" is 3/8, 3/4=9/16 and 1" is 13/16. It does make a difference. I have a couple faucets I was surprised how poor the pressure is on my current well 40-60 psi set-up. I had intended to go to a constant pressure well pump but now will definitely do so. Everything is good about the 50 psi range. Not so at 40# I am a fan of tankless. I represented a major manuf of tankless for 20 yrs. As far as your suggested products I will only suggest that you avoid Bosch. They, imho, do not have the right technology. Your first step regardless of what you do for equipment is a thorough water test. Manuf of tankless have to list annual cleanings for maintenance, but I had one unit for 12 years and never touched it. It was a pre-production model and I had to replace it prior to selling the house. I cut it in half and it was as clean as a whistle. Many of your plumbing questions and answers begin with the compete water test. Tankless (2) could handle your loads until you bring the tubs into play. They represent a massive load, even for your Vertex's. To handle your tub flows you should have two units on each side of the house. The thing about the tankless is they will each make your 7 or so gpm 24 hrs per day, but 135/7=about a 18-20 min fill. Will you wait that long for your bath. I have a bath fill controller on my tub. I set it at 104 and 35 gal (the vol of my tub) and it will deliver 35 gal of 104* water and shut off the hot and beep to tell me my bath is ready. Pretty cool actually. Your shower should be okay with one tankless, but your shower head(s) must fall within the flow capacity of the water heater. I can go on and on with this topic. Get your water tested and report back. That should be step one regardless of what your are doing....See MoreTankless Water Heater system,cost effective compared to Gas Tank?
Comments (58)Fred derf fred: I too was set on going tankless - till i saw the upcharge. It is coming to about $5,750 more to go with (4) gas tankless (Rinnai 94LS 9.4gpm top of the line) compared to State gas water heaters - as spec'd in the drawings of our house. I did research and found out that gas tankless do have an EF (efficiency rating) of .82, however GAS (i believe you compared electric tank) tank heaters commonly have .62, and a few have .68 efficiency. This results in savings of tankless is about $250 per year, for all 4 units combined. So it would take me more than 20 years to recoup the cost difference. This was based on a formula as provided by the dept. of energy. Additionally, State, who sells both, has a 'calculator' on their website that corraborated the results. Also, please note that your existing ELECTRIC tank heater was very OLD. New, gas models are much more efficient so I do not think it is a fair comparison. I am no expert, but these are my findings. I would greatly appreciate any other comments ASAP as we are about to make the decision on going tank or tankless...See MoreHW heater-propane vs electric, tank vs tankless
Comments (5)Full disclosure - I own a Tankless gas water heater and love it. I had a 50gal tanked gas water heater before. Due to space constraints, it could not be replaced. It was in the doorway of the utility room. Here is what I learned when looking at Tankless water heaters. Just like when you want to go solar, you have to get more efficient with your appliances. The things I did to change my plumbing fixtures were intrinsic. All these things below were done as part of replacing aging fixtures and were not related to the tankless decision but made the decision and experience with tankless flawless. Replaced all but one bathroom shower valve with a Thermostatic valve. The last one will be replaced this winter. Replace all shower heads with units that used no more than 2.5gal/min Replaced all bathroom and kitchen faucets with units that used less than 2.5gal/min My dishwashers and washers already heated their own water and all but one of my Washers can use all cold water as input. The dishwasher and washers were energy efficient and used small amounts of water. There is a large bathtub in the house and the tankless water heater is wonderful for this. We take a bath maybe twice a week. I am getting a separate temperature controller for the tub bathroom so that the filling can happen without interfering with other activities. Currently, showers take priority. My house hold has 3 adults in it and we always seem to be in the shower at the same time (3 full bathrooms). With the tankless water heater, this is no longer an issue. I like in Maryland where we get really cold in the winter:-). I have a recirculator with my tankless water heater and that is on a timer. It runs for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening. When the recirculator is not running, it takes about 1minute to get hot water to the farthest location in the house. I may add the point of use tankless heater to the bathroom faucets just because it wastes time to wait for hot water. This issue with hot water at the farthest location was always a problem. I purchased the largest residential tankless water heater which with a 30degree rise, will get you 9.6gpms. This would theoretically allow me to run 3 showers and a faucet at the same time. My unit is programmed to 110F degrees and the showers are set to about 105F degrees. The thermostat for the tankless is in an easy to reach location in the hallway and I can easily increase or decrease the water temperature. I originally started at 140F which is the max temp. I changed it the first day when I could barely wash my hands without burning them. My temperature rise in the summer is about 35F degrees and 50F degrees in the winter. When I went with tankless, I had heard all the horror stories of cold water sandwiches, huge volume drops due to cold incoming water and flow rate to get started at the sink. I have not experienced any of this. I think the thermostatic valves in the shower contribute to this quite a bit. I am able to get hot water at the sink in under 10 seconds except for the farthest unit. When the recirculator is running, the water is hot within 2 seconds. Just enough time to flush the water from the steel part of the faucet. Propane would be my choice in your situation. Electric tanked or tankless water heaters would leave you in a lurch when the power went out. Propane tankless water heaters don't perform as efficiently as the natural gas units but that is true of all propane appliances. I have my tankless water heater hooked up to an uninterruptable power supply in the event of a power failure which we have quite often. I also have a small gasoline back up generator and the tankless unit works fine when connected. I have a Rinnai RUR98i. This unit has a built in recirculator pump. You can also purchase a separate recirculator with the tankless or tanked unit of your choice. I purchased it from build.com and my plumber installed it. I also installed the scale water filter before the unit and this keeps the unit operational without a lot of build up. The unit is just over a year old and I performed a maintenance in the summer. There was very little build up. I am also installing a whole house filter for sediment and chlorine due to some work the water company is doing in my neighborhood for the next year. I have not selected a solution yet for the whole house filter. Good luck with your decision....See MoreElectric tank or tankless water heater v. Propane tank or tankless
Comments (8)If you're really sure you want tankless (and you kinda seem to be), I'm not going to argue with you. I'll just say a couple of things and then I'll bow out. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on these matters. They just interest me and I hope to be more energy independent in the future, so I read up on them. I always welcome corrections from knowledgeable folk. First point: IMO electric resistive heating of ANY kind basically just doesn't play nice with PV, off grid or on. The only time it really makes sense is when you're off grid and your system produces more energy during the day than you can store in your battery. This can also apply to some extent if you're intertied and your utility pays you wholesale or less when you sell your power, essentially penalizing you for conserving. Either way, dumping your excess PV energy into water heaters is one way to store it for later use. However, it should be obvious that to store that energy, you have to use traditional storage water heaters, not tankless. Second point: Peak demand matters. It matters to your electric utility, and it matters to your bill. You probably know more about CA rates than I do, but it appears to me that right now California is more into time of use (TOU) metering than peak demand metering. However, more and more utilities are adopting peak demand metering for residential customers (they've had it for business for ages). So even if you're not dealing with it now, it may well be in your future. Demand based metering watches your power (not just energy) usage. The higher it is, the more you pay for all your electricity. In one demand scheme, you pay a surcharge based on your peak power usage (in kilowatts), In another, the price they charge you for every kilowatt hour you use depends on your peak usage -- the higher your peak, even if it's only once in the month, the more you pay per kWh that month. Let me give you an example of the second scheme. Let's say your house's big energy hog right now is an electric range.. Most of the time, you just use one or two surface units at a time. So your peak demand is relatively low, and you pay (say) 14 cents per kWh most months. But when you cook Thanksgiving dinner, you have all the surface units going, plus the oven, and a microwave. On that one day, you have a much higher peak demand. Your utility takes note. And that month, you pay 20 cents per kWh for EVERY kWh you use all month. So even though that month's usage is only a little higher than usual, the final bill for the month is MUCH higher. Now imagine what could happen to your bill if you add an appliance that increases your peak demand every day of every month. Guess what: when it comes to peak demand, tankless electric water heaters are MONSTERS. Think about it. With its mild climate, California is a great place for heat pump storage water heaters. That's what I'd get if I were you. Not tankless, and definitely not electric tankless. And that's all I have to say about that....See MoreDiane Sacchetti
4 years agoJake The Wonderdog
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agoDiane Sacchetti
4 years agoDiane Sacchetti
4 years agoJake The Wonderdog
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agoDiane Sacchetti
4 years ago
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