Yeah, I didn't think the idea of Durock on shims sounded too sturdy. Grrr. Time to call the GC for a chat.

Just a homeowner here. Good for you being proactive and seeking information before a potential problem.

I found it helpful to read the shower chapters of the TCNA handbook before having “the waterproofing talk” with my GC, who chose to quit rather than do the shower right. You can buy a download able version for under $40. Also, I read a lot of waterproofing threads on here and John Bridge. It doesn’t make you an expert but it does help to familiarize yourself with the terms and basics of building a shower (framing, drain, pre-slope, pan liner, floor, substrate, waterproofing membranes, thin set, flood test, thin set, tile, lippage issues, grout, silicone...)

Take notes during the meeting and confirm what was said and agreed upon by sending an email to the GC afterwards.

Not exactly your situation, but some parts of this story might help you prepare for the meeting.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5725013/what-to-do-when-a-project-goes-completely-south#n=13

I’m sorry I posted that link. I just saw that you already read it, so my post is redundant. Let us know how the talk goes with your GC. It helps to have another person there. Treat it exactly like a regular business meeting at work. If GC goes off on a tangent, always bring it back to asking the GC what his plan is for building your shower to comply with industry standards (local plumbing codes, TCNA, ASNI, etc), and manufacturer’s instructions.

https://www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications/218-english-publications/188-handbook.html

Thanks everyone. I spoke to the GC last night and he said without hesitation that they would be building a mud floor, with pre-slope, liner, final slope and then tile. The first words out of his mouth, in fact, were "how are you going to make a slope with Durock when you can't contour it?" No idea why this hadn't been communicated to the sub, but we should be on track now. Supposedly they are building the curb today so we'll see what gets done. The "foreman" is extremely slow, but at least that makes it a little easier to catch mistakes when they are still at a fixable stage.

Make sure they do not build it out of wood.

"No idea why this hadn't been communicated to the sub, but we should be on track now."

My concern here is that the sub thought at one point that the Duroc was the proper substrate...................................

You are doing your due diligence and that is to be admired. Isn't it a pain?

In my opinion, the GC should have been very concerned after talking to you -- concerned about his decision to hire the unqualified sub. Did GC not indicate he would be firing the sub and hiring a well-qualified new tile pro? My quit-GC hired a hack to increase his margin rather than hire a pro. It's quite common. Even though your GC used the "right words," it's quite possible he is hiring cheap to increase his margin at the expense of a quality-build for you. Whether it is intentional, or GC just isn't aware that the sub is not qualified, doesn't matter. What matters is that you don't appear to have a qualified tile pro working on your shower.

You might want to follow up with an email expressing your concern regarding why the GC is allowing the unqualified sub to continue working there when it does not appear he knows how to build a shower in accordance with industry standards and manufacturer's instructions. Keep your language super professional and make sure it's in email and save the GCs response.

Take lots of in-progress pictures, in the am, at lunch and in the evening, plus pictures of all the products, buckets and tools. Each evening transfer the pics to your computer and keep them in date-order.

My main concern here is that the GC is sticking with the unqualified sub. He has already proven he doesn't know how to do it right. The GCs job is to set schedules, hire qualified trade subs, ensure quality, handle issues, etc. That's why they get the extra margin in their pockets. He doesn't appear to be doing his job.

Good luck; I hope you get a real tile pro.

Agreed - this sub is a bit of a hot mess. They had words this morning and my GC told me that he will not be building the shower pan nor doing any of the tiling, so I'm feeling a little better about things!

Green Designs, what material do you suggest for the curb? I believe the plan was to build it out of wood, then tar paper/metal lath/mud over it to prep it for tile.

biondanonima,

AH! I was typing at the same time as you I guess. I'm encourgaged that the GC is taking action. However, I have been told by my tile pro in the past that wood has no place in buiding a curb. I'm not a pro, but I think he built it out of foam boards (not sure what brand -- maybe Kerdi or Hydroban boards?). On these details, I'm not sure, but I do remember him tearing out my ruined shower and shaking his head "no" when he saw the wood curb.

Thanks AJCN. I do remember reading somewhere about using Kerdi boards/rigid foam for the curb, but I assumed wood would be okay as long as it was properly mudded, membraned and tiled. I'll ask my GC about it.

I'm not a pro, so anything I type is highly likely to be wrong. Hopefully a pro on here will explain what the acceptable methods are.

Things are chugging right along with the remodel! My contractor said he does usually use 2x4s for the curb, but is fine with using a rigid foam if I prefer. Any recommendations on brand? I have called around to some local shops and the only one I am finding in stock is Wedi, which luckily seems like a good product (comes already sloped toward the drain, notched at the bottom to allow the pre-slope to come under the foam, etc.). Any better suggestions?

There is no preslope with Wedi. A prelope is required in a water in water out system which the water proof liner is below the mud bed and the preslope beneath the liner to guide water to the drains weep holes.

A bonded system will be topical without the need for a preslope. The mud bed remains dry instead of saturated. There are many systems on the market. Laticrete, USG, Wedi, Schluter and many others.

You need to simplify this. Inform the contractor that the shower build needs to conform to TCNA (Tile Council North America) specifications. IPC and manufacturer instructions. Spend $35 and get yourself the TCNA handbook. Green Design posted the link above. Now the contractor can simply give you the detail he/she is following. You will both literally be on the same page. I expect the both of you will learn something. A good amount of confusion and misinformation on this thread. Good luck.

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

Creative Tile, we are not using a bonded system for the entire shower. The contractor clarified that they will be building a mud pre-slope, then the PVC/CPE liner, mud on top and then tile on top of that. However, they typically use wood 2x4s to build curbs and after researching a bit, it sounds as though there are many better options available these days, including the rigid foam curbs made for bonded systems. Is it not appropriate to use just the curb piece from Wedi/Schluter/Durock?

There are details for a wood built curb. (not pressure treated)

biondanonima you are the one who brought up Wedi.

Unfortunately it sounds like you are becoming the GC. Not a good scenario

"we are not using a bonded system for the entire shower." Only for part??? How does that work?

What will the waterproofing on the walls be?

Like I said. A lot of confusion and misinformation. Get the Handbook and go by specific details. You have been given the sources to protect yourself. Whether you choose to use them is up to you.

Gathering opinions on a public forum is very risky. I'm suggesting approved methods in writing.

I am not becoming the GC, but the research I have been doing over the course of this project has turned up a number of comments from various sources that because it tends to expand and contract at different rates from tile (and because it is not waterproof), wood is no longer the preferred material for shower curbs when waterproof alternatives like rigid foam are available. My GC seems to be a bit old school on this and still uses wood, so I am trying to research the best alternative. Do you suggest another material for curbs when building a mud pan (keeping in mind that this is a second floor bathroom - I have seen suggestions for brick/granite/masonry curbs but typically only for bathrooms on slabs)?

By the way, the walls will be waterproofed with RedGard before the tile is installed.

"turned up a number of comments from various sources" That's the problem!! YouTube is a dangerous place. As much bad information as good.

A curb constructed of wood IS a approved method. I'm not saying it is or isn't my choice just stating a fact.

'wood is no longer the preferred material for shower curbs'

Many would say water in / water out systems are fading into history. Liners and pans are becoming obsolete. Topical waterproofing (Bonded System) eliminates a saturated mud bed. Now what will you do? Instruct the contractor to change systems? Seriously

OK Redgaurd. Now who will be using the film gauge to insure the proper mil. thickness is achieved each coat. To thin no warranty and inadequate waterproofing, to thick no warranty and a good chance of cracking.

What wall board? Will it be above the mud bed with a space for sealant or buried in the mud allowing moisture to wick up the wall?

"I have seen suggestions for ……." The only suggestion I have is the TCNA Handbook and follow product manufacturers instructions which supersede the handbook.

Remember. Facts vs Opinions

Thanks again, Creative, for your input. I actually called a supplier of foam curb overlay today to see if they had product in stock, and he told me that they have mostly stopped carrying the overlay (meant to go over wood 2x4 curbs), because the bonded systems have largely superseded the old-school mud method. I am honestly fine with either method, as long as it is done properly. I have been asking questions on the John Bridge forums as well and given their input and yours (along with the page you posted, which is much appreciated), I am much more comfortable with the wood curb my contractor is planning.

My contractor actually fired (a couple of hours after my last post) the sub that has been working on the bathroom up until now, and assured me that he will have his best tile guys building the shower and setting the tile. I will be sure to ask them how they plan to apply and measure the thickness of the RedGard (I know a priming layer mixed with a couple of parts. The subs hung Durock cement board in the top half of the shower today, leaving the bottom open for the membrane. I will make sure that they leave a gap between the cement board and the mortar bed so that moisture cannot wick up the board, and that all changes of plane are caulked, not grouted. If there are any other potential pitfalls I need to be aware of, please do let me know - I really appreciate your help and willingness to be detailed with your responses!

I'm not a pro. Creative is a pro. He is right that you are getting a lot of confusing info here, but it is also true that you are getting confusing or no information from your contractor. Why is he not in charge of all this research you are doing? Why are you calling suppliers and trying to decide what products to use? Does your contractor not have trusted suppliers and skilled trade subs? And does he not know how to build a shower to local plumbing codes, industry standards and manufacture's instructions? This is very worrisome as far as the contractor's knowledge and abilities to mange the project.

AJCN, I thought I was confident in my contractor's understanding of how to build a shower (and supply trustworthy subs), until this yahoo sub that just got fired showed up. He kept talking about building a shower out of Durock, with screws through the membrane, no waterproofing on the walls, etc. etc. When I mentioned this mess to my GC, he assured me that this idiot would NOT be building my shower and that his best guys would be building the mudded pre-slope, liner, mud then tile construction we discussed when we originally met (he was the only contractor I met with who was able to describe the waterproofing process clearly and accurately), but the fact that he hired this sub in the first place has certainly shaken my faith. Hence my desire to learn as much about the process and how it should be done as possible. Trust but verify, as they say!

Creative is right in that I should have bought and read the TCNA handbook right away; if I had, I would have known that wood is an approved curb material for a mudded shower on a wooden substrate. I definitely see the advantages of foam overlay or other curb materials, but as long as his new crew is competent I am sure the old-school method will be fine.

Isn't it frustrating? Why do homeowners have to suddenly tranform themselves into quasi-GCs? Why can't GCs do their jobs? The only times I've had real bad issues happen on projects are the 2 times when I had to hire a GC - kitchen and bath. And believe me, we've done many dozens of projects; only 2 required a GC, and those are the ones where things went wrong. The issues involving our kitchen remodel got resolved after the GC fired the meth addict. That GC was honorable, and did always come back (dozens of times) and fix things, but he would have made more money if he had hired well in the first place. The bathroom quit-GC (the gone South project) hibernated after I asked waterproofing questions. The quit-GC hired a hack, either because of ignorance or to increase his margin. It is so frustrating that regular homeowners can't put their trust in a GC to hire qualified, experienced subcontractors.

You can buy a dowloadable version of the TCNA handbook; it's quicker than waiting for the paper copy.

With the combined methods you describe there is a common error to watch for. With us old school mud guys transitioning to bonded systems is difficult. In our minds a liner below and Redgaurd on the top is double the protection and we shall sleep well. Give credit for the concerned thought process. Unfortunately it raises an entirely new problem by creating a moisture envelope with the mud bed in the middle. Ask how GC's best guys plan to waterproof the shower floor. If they state what I just discribed then you will know the level of experience.

What is acceptable.

1) Preslope, liner, mud bed and Redgaurd on the wall board only.

2) No preslope, No liner, mud bed and the entire shower coated with Redgaurd.

following

Creative, I do understand that RedGard on top of liner creates a mold sandwich, so I will be sure to ask and specify no RedGard on the floor if a CPE liner is present. I actually don't love the idea of using RedGard for a full surface membrane largely for the reasons you described in a previous post (too thin or too thick is bad, etc.), but I'm fairly certain they are planning a CPE liner.

Before you tell them what to do. Ask their plan to test the knowledge of their best installer.

That was the point I wanted to make. He/She may be very knowledgeable and help put your mind at ease. The next tile setter coming in knows they are following someone that gave you a bad experience and you will be on top of them. Don't prejudge. Keep in mind a professional tile setter with years of knowledge is going to tell you how it will be done not the other way around. Just ask questions and verify methods. Sorry for getting long winded. Pros see so many homeowners in bad tile situations it gets very frustrating. Condemn the hacks but appreciate the trade professionals. They are out there but unfortunately greatly outnumbered. In progress photos and manufacturer instructions will be your best defense. You can always send a photo to the manufacturer and get a response in writing. Eliminates room for argument. Hope all works out for you.

"... and he claimed that the manufacturer of the liner makes an epoxy or glue that is meant for dipping the screws so that the punctures are re-sealed when the screw goes in."

Thanks for the laugh to start my morning.

Dipped screws, waterproof duct tape, tube of caulk and run the liner under the curb for ease of installation. Keep liner on walls lower than drain to save $$ on liner material.

Never say you've seen it all.

May as well give Joe and others another chuckle.

“Keep liner on walls lower than drain to save $$ on liner material.”

Leads to a whole new take on a flood test, eh? Quite the humor filled suggestion thread at this point...almost a primer in what to watch out for.

Creative - yes, I will ask about their plans. That is, after all, how I found out about the original sub's screws-in-glue plan! :) Any suggestions for dealing with the "don't you worry little lady, your pretty princess bathroom is going to be all sparkly when I'm done!" misogyny that is frequently part of the answer? Luckily my GC is not like this, but both the fired sub and another guy who was on site earlier in the project made several such remarks (in addition to other fun stuff like "cement board and thinset are waterproof"). I have no problem deflecting such and returning the conversation to topic, but it really is amazing how openly misogynist some of these guys can be.

By the way, here is a diagram of the bathroom (ignore the measurements, which are off by a few inches, and the exposed brick chimney - it has been furred, Durocked and will be tiled). The curb is a neo-angle with two bends, which I would assume presents some special challenges in terms of getting the membrane wrapped just right. Any issues I should watch out for?

Tell the GC to tell them to treat your home as a work site and to use professional language. Because the work site is your home, many bubbas use overly familiar, and sexist language with the woman of the house. You should not have to confront the subcontractors yourself. Tell the GC that they need to talk to you the same as if you were standing in a regular office building.

If they still do it, you can nip it in the bud on-site, and then ask the GC to have another talk with them.

"don't you worry little lady, your pretty princess bathroom is going to be all sparkly when I'm done!" I'm sure you're right about that, but will it leak and ruin my walls and floor? What waterproofing method and materials are you using? That's the most important thing here, don't you think?

Here's one I heard from someone else on this forum:

"I know you. You always have to have it exactly how you have to have it." I have no idea how I'd respond to that one!

"You're too hard to please." So, if it's is too hard for you to build a waterproof shower, what are you planning to build here, a non-waterproof shower?

Sometimes conractors talk like this just because it's just a habit, and the person just doesn't know any better. But other times it is a "soft" form of bullying and intimidation; a way of "putting you in your place" so that you will shut up and stop asking questions.

The quit-contractor on my botched bathroom job said things like this and it was definately a form of intimidation and buillying because they knew they were not waterproofing the shower correctly and they were angry that I had asked questions about it. I was usually only home for a few minutes in the morning, to greet them, ask any questions and then I would leave for the majority of the day. So I only had a couple of minutes each day to talk to them. It's not like I was breathing down their necks asking questions all day long. I was almost always gone. Each and every response coming out of the contractor's mouth was meant to bully and intimidate. This type of bullying is pretty effective most of the time, so there is a lot of incentive for them to use this tactic.

My new contactor was totally professional and never, ever, not even once, said anything different to me than he would have to my husband. He was also very very professional and pleasant with the other members of his team. It was the first time ever that I had that experience. The professionalism not only made the whole atmosphere much more pleasant, it enabled great communication between us which helped the whole project go smoothly.

Different situtations call for different approaches. If I had a great pro doing awesome work and he had been professional all along, and then one day let slip a remark, I'd probably just let it slide because things are not black and white in this world. On the other hand, if it's happening all the time and is the go-to response every time you ask a question, then the contractor's appoach is starting to affect the communication between contractor and customer. Anything that diminishes the communication is bound to have a negative affect on the overall project. If the customer is feeling intimidated, or made to feel stupid for asking questions, she will probably ask fewer questions, which may lead to misunderstandings and overall negative affect on the work. If the remarks are intended to shut you down, then the contractor will be happy his tactics worked.

Think about your regular job. If you had a new team member join in on a project, and everytime they asked you a question about the project, you shut them down with a remark which is meant to make them feel diminished or stupid, would that team member be learining anything? Would the communication among team members be improved? The project would suffer. It's the same thing no matter if you are at an industrial plant, and accounting office, or in your home.

Just an update - we are chugging along with this shower build but unfortunately, I am having to babysit every step of the process. I asked the sub on day one to explain to me how he was going to build the shower floor, and he said "I put the liner on the subfloor..." UGH. Anyway, I showed him the various TCNA diagrams and he has been following those instructions, although not always without a fight. He mentioned to me that he has only ever had one other client request a pre-slope. Honestly, how do these people think gravity works???????

Furthermore, both he and the GC continue to insist that Durock and grout are waterproof, and it is clear that they are only applying RedGard to the walls to humor me, but whatever, as long as it gets done correctly and no one murders any one else before the project is complete, it will be fine. Lesson learned though - when interviewing a bath contractor, first question should be "is Durock waterproof?" I never would have hired my current GC if I had known he thinks it is!!!!!

I’m not a pro, but I have heard some people say that some backer boards are themselves technically waterproof, meaning that water won’t destroy the backer board itself. And this description can lead to confusion. Water won’t destroy the board, but the board doesn’t stop water from getting to your wall cavity/studs. The red guard or other membrane is what stops the water (or poly behind the board, or other approved waterproofing methods). I think sometimes people are confused when they hear or read that a particular board is waterproof and they think nothing else is required.

That said, it doesn’t sound like your installers have read the manufacturer’s instructions, or have any knowledge or appreciation of industry (TCNA, ASNI, etc) standards, local plumbing codes or building codes. I hope it all works out for you, but if they are so reluctant to do it right why are you still employing them? I don’t think I’d be able to catch every little thing, and there are a lot of little things that have to go right in a shower build.

AJCN, that is correct - water won't destroy the board. On the Durock website, they refer to their product as "water-durable," which is true. They also clearly state that if "waterproof" is desired, to use the roll-on membrane they make for the purpose.

Anyway, they have been reasonably good natured about following the TCNA guidelines I showed them and seem to be doing a good job on each step (once they are convinced to DO said step), so I have allowed them to continue because I think it will be the most expedient way for me to get this project done. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that any other contractor I might find to take over would be any better, and as you learned, finding someone to take over mid-project can be an expensive hassle (if you can find anyone at all).

Good to hear they are at least willing to look at the instructions and such. I’m sure you’ll be so glad when it’s all complete. It is hard to find good contractors before and mid-way, ever! Seems no matter what, it’s a struggle.

Please take many many photographs of this process and follow up your conversations with emails to the GC so everything is in writing... just in case...

Ditto what Debbie said about photos, as per my “Gone South” story.