No-what you have described is NOT training in any way.

I myself,would have spoken up-immediately,no matter who was with me.

This dog,a "sorority" dog, is obviously abused regularly,according to its crouching "waiting for a blow to his head".

I would report this "trainer" to the humane society in your area.

I agree. That is not any kind of proper dog training methodology.....it is abuse, pure and simple! I would have intervened immediately but then I will not allow any kind of mistreatment of animals in my presence. And I tend not to be very easily initimidated, either.

I would have spoken up as well and would have no compunction about giving this woman what for. I also would have taken the leash in hand myself and shown her how easy it is to get a dog to obey simple commands in just a few minutes by using positive reinforcement. NOT abuse!!

ETA: Labs are very smart and just want to please their person. They are immensely trainable with just praise or treats.

The one looking after the dog allowed this?

Now that the incident is over, there is no going back to fix it. Moving forward, could you contact the woman who is taking care of the dog and have a heart to heart talk with her about what you observed and how you felt about the whole thing? Maybe she didn't say anything because she's a timid, confrontation avoiding type of person.

Her response to this conversation might give you some ideas of how to proceed. You could offer to walk the dog during your walks and then you'd be more in control of the situation if the "trainer" tries to interfere.

It's not really a solution, because it doesn't solve the problem, but maybe she could leave the dog at home if the "trainer" is going to be there.

If she won't do anything about it, you can contact animal control, tell them what you saw and hope they'll do something about it.

Since you've seen the true colors of some of the people in your walking group, you are also going to have to decide if you want to continue being part of the group or if you want to leave the group. Next time you get together to walk, you could try speaking up again about what happened, but if no one sides with you, I don't think that will help much.

Best of luck, nicole. This is not an easy situation to find yourself in. Please let us know how it turns out.

That is no way to "train" a dog. First I would have made a video of the abuse then I would have been in her face. And if she didn't stop, I would report her to the SPCA with the video to back you up. Maybe publicly shame her on Youtube. I have no tolerance of people who abuse animals, because it is a pretty good bet that they also abuse their children.

Dawn....I've left the walking group. This happened Monday. LM emailed me and said I didn't know how to train a dog....she used to be a professional trainer. No one else minded her training the dog...it was just ME. She is right about that.

I feel if someone else can validate it WAS NOT training....next time it will embolden me to take the dog leash away from an abuser. I don't own a cell phone....I carry a water bottle.

If it had been "my" dog....my "property"....I would have done things differently. The owner was THERE.....approving ....

I have had excellent professional dog trainers when I had my Great Danes. That is absolutely NOT in any way proper dog training. It is counter productive. You are creating a scared dog not an obedient attentive dog. Personally I would have taken the dog leash from her and walked away with it. The fact that she was not the owner and did this to someone else's dog she is lucky that person did not deck her. Unbelievable behavior. Unacceptable behavior! I would talk to the person who had the dog and let her know that was abusive behavior!

A video is a great idea, caflowerluver. Everyone has cameras with them these days. That alone might have been enough to make her stop what she was doing.

nicole, we were commenting at the same time. Good for you for leaving the group. That might give them something to think about. As far as validating that it's no way to train a dog, I think everyone posting here is in agreement on that point.

I knew with such large dogs I would have to be able to control them at all times. Especially around children because children are so attracted to Danes. Luckily Danes are in general very friendly loving dogs and they love children. I paid hundreds of dollars for the best training at home and never ever was that kind of treatment applied. It's not a punishment and torture it's a rewarding process! Done with love.

I did not read anywhere in that OP of animal abuse. ?? I think you must be overreacting.

Dog training used to be done that way 50 years ago, although not quite so violently and with the addition of praise when the dog got it right. It was the “jerk and praise” method. It is now considered inhumane by most trainers.

My heart breaks for puppers.

Hard jerking on a choke collar can do permanent irreparable damage to the dogs esophagus, trachea and thyroid. My vet refused to have an animal in the clinic with a choke collar on! So yes that was abuse.

https://peterdobias.com/blogs/blog/11015137-choke-prong-and-shock-collars-can-irreversibly-damage-your-dog

Perhaps sharing some articles by vets about the dangers of the type of abuse that dog was suffering would help her understand? The owner I mean. The other woman is just wrong but won't accept that information.

And you are under reacting, chessie, clearly. I hope you don’t own a dog. I would have video taped the behavior and gone to the police. That dog needs to be removed from the people abusing it

Chessie

I did not read anywhere in that OP of animal abuse. ?? I think you must be overreacting.

Did you read what Nicole posted? How does anyone NOT consider this abuse??

Nicole, I don't know how I would have reacted, but good for you leaving that group. They sound like awful women. The perpetrator is not an animal trainer, she is an animal abuser posing as a trainer. And choke collars are horrible, they should not be legal. We trained our doggies via a harness and leash and commands sweetened with treats. It worked well without trauma or injury to the dogs. I feel so sorry for the dog, especially since the person who was supposed to be his guardian let this woman mistreat him.

Nicole, please start carrying a cell phone when you walk for your safety.

It was abuse. If reported to animal control if they interview people who hang around with the abuser girl doubtless there will be some animal lovers who will speak up and validate the treatment this dog gets, I'm sure this was not a one time thing. For leverage I would contact the sorority involved as well as the university that the sorority is attached to, and say you plan to contact the press.

Some people would arrange to have the dog get a new home. That presents a myriad of ethical and legal problems, but Nicole I believe you and that dog is being abused. BTW, a research of 'trainers' including police and other professionals, will uncover some who use exactly that sort of hanging as a training aid.

The problem with legalities although the law is changing is that most animals are regarded as property, not as beings with needs and feelings. Many times if evidence is shown that the animal has food water and shelter, that is all that is checked. Think of all those horrible Amish beating their animals with impunity.

To me personally, those women who tried to downplay the cruelty are as equally evil as the abuser.

OMG, i am sick to my stomach.... i absolutely agree with the others that this was abuse, plain and simple.

the dog should be taken away from the owner and the "trainer" should have her license revoked & not be able to have any dogs. she is horrific.

we adopted a retriever mix and he is such a pleaser, so sweet and gentle. we can't even get angry when he does something wrong, which is rare....gentle but firm correction is all he needs. then we kiss him which probably undues the correction but he gets it :) hehe........ he's such a cuddle love bug. light of our lives :)

"Did you read what Nicole posted? How does anyone NOT consider this abuse?? "

I did. Maybe I missed where the dog was struck...or maybe she edited it out? I I'll read it again.

Hmm...I wish the OP had taken a video. Quite honestly, I think many people do interpret discipline or training, to be abusive. I have taken my BF's lab out for a walk and absolutely had to pull her up hard. She is hard-headed and weighs a ton - you can't let her boss you. This sounds very similar to what this person was doing.

If the OP thinks it was abuse, then she should not walk with those ladies anymore.

Chessie the dog was HUNG and SLAMMED ON THE GROUND.

"Quite honestly, I think many people do interpret discipline or training, to be abusive. I have taken my BF's lab out for a walk and absolutely had to pull her up hard. She is hard-headed and weighs a ton - you can't let her boss you. This sounds very similar to what this person was doing."

Chessie if you are screaming, hanging your BF's dog and then slamming it on the ground repeatedly I think you too are guilty of abuse. We KNOW Nicole, she did not misinterpreted this abuse.

No living, breathing, sentient creature should ever be treated like that.

Some people are rotten. I just wish those people wouldn't have children. Or animals. Or take it out on the elderly or people/critters who are unable to fight back.

I walk a dog three days a week in a dog walking area along a trail that hugs the river. There are paid dog walkers, there are dog trainers, there are regular people walking their dogs and there is a doggy day care taking the dogs out for a quick walk and pee and I have NEVER seen that kind of treatment from anyone. The paid dog walkers use treats for positive reinforcement as do the dog trainers, the doggy day care uses firm voices and/or pats. (Penny always used to get a firm voice because she'd harass the other dogs by barking at them and now she gets pats when she doesn't) The dogs are loved by all and treated with respect.

The kind of dog that is being created will not be a happy one.

I am no dog training expert but that is clearly abuse, no matter what claims that LM has to the contrary. We have owned a lot of dogs, several labs, and many we have trained on our own, the labs being so trainable. I would still report that a dog is being abused under the guise of ‘training’. And yes, if you are on good terms with the woman keeping that poor lab for the summer, I would have a private chat with her about it.

"Chessie the dog was HUNG and SLAMMED ON THE GROUND."

I did not interpret it like that. (You don't have to SCREAM all caps either.) I read:

it's feet almost left the ground, hanging the dog

That ^^ would in no way "hang" the dog.How could it? And if the dog was not lifted off its feet, how could it be "slammed to the ground"??

Now, If she did more than that, and truly slammed the dog to the ground, then certainly that is abusive - I completely agree. I fail to understand how the entire group of women would all ignore that. That just does not sound right. As I said, I wish she had taken a video.

And please - don't be offensive by suggesting that I have abused a dog. That is quite rude and uncalled for. Thank you.

I take reports like this with a grain of salt.
My first question would be whether the dog was actually on a choke chain or a pinch collar. What may appear abusive to someone not familiar with anything out side of treat training may not be abusive at all. There are often posts here that I myself find abusive to animals. The Fuffies, Muffins and Toodles who are not trained at all, can't walk properly on a leash, run out of their yards, aren't socialized etc.

There are two very well known canine training centers in my area that train dogs for the police, protection etc. Those dogs are loved, and become soulmates of their handlers and owners. They are obedience trained to be safe on or off leash in every situation. Correction as described is commonly used. Since we weren't there there we don't know if the "scream" was a loud sharp heads up "YELP", cut it out, or an actual screaming AT the dog (there is a difference). We don't know how long the dog was up off it's feet and the "blow to the head" sounds like it never happened but was more an "imaginary" outcome since the poster never said the dog was actually hit.

Whatever happens, I would remove myself from that little group.

I have had 3 dogs in the last 40+ years and never had to resort to that level of physical abuse to train them. I will admit that when we got our first dog, chain choke collar training was what they taught in dog obedience classes. it never made sense to me and I would use treats to encourage good behavior instead. We had the first dog for 14.5 years, the second, which we got a year later, lived 18.5 years, and the third and final lived 16.5 years. They were well behaved and got along with everyone. And the last was a Dachshund, known to be stubborn and difficult to train and yet we got her to be a very well trained dog with treats, praise and love.

watchmelol/wildchild....the scream ....was a nonsensical noise. Just very loud. LM said she was establishing herself as Alpha. That's why it wasn't a command. LM seemed to be enjoying the attention. Every time she screamed and yanked....we all flinched.

The dog had a leather collar on. The choke chain was the old fashioned kind. A chain through a ring with a leash attatched. When she pulled on the "chain", the chain was above the leather collar by about 4", because the dog would rear it's head, point it's nose in the air trying to get air.....or get above the chain...?

And please - don't be offensive by suggesting that I have abused a dog.

Chessie I am so sorry. What I said: If you are screaming, hanging your BF's dog and then slamming it on the ground repeatedly I think you too are guilty of abuse.

What I meant is if you are in fact doing all those things, you are in my opinion guilty of torture.

Call the police. In Illinois, they have access to state approved humane investigators and can help enforce state laws and protect animals. (Worked with someone who is an attorney and professor of animal law.)

https://www2.illinois.gov/sites/agr/Animals/AnimalHealth/Pages/Approved-Humane-Investigators.aspx

Nicole, from the way you described the dog I could literally see its cuteness in my minds eye. My lab has that joy factor when she’s happy too and she’s the love of the neighborhood because of it. Ugh...that stupid woman is going to break it’s spirit and that breaks my heart. Some people really don’t deserve to have or even be around dogs, that’s all there is to it.

Sadly, I have a situation I’ve never been able to unsee too. Several years ago, we went to get our dog her shots and ahead of us was lab that was about 6 months old. She was skin and bones, obviously hungry and malnutritioned. Her “owner” was this filthy old man who was so unkind to her. I watched and waited for the vet administering the shots to speak up but she didn’t and I didn’t either until after he left. I think about that puppy all the time and wonder if she’s ok, but more importantly, I learned a hard lesson and I won’t not ever speak up again, regardless of the circumstances. So kudo’s for speaking up to them, it was the right thing to do. I think I would have probably started filming her with my phone and told her flat out, it’s abuse and if she didn’t stop I’d take the video to the police and file charges.

the scream ....was a nonsensical noise. Just very loud. LM said she was establishing herself as Alpha

The nonsensical noise validates what I believe she was doing. She wasn't screaming at the dog. She was using a common training maneuver in basic, not new age, obedience training. She may or not be very good at it. But the maneuver in itself is not abusive. Is she abusive.? We can't really know by what was posted. There was little to on because emotions were brought in instill of simple facts. I don't see how one who is handling two dogs at a time could possibly slam one of them into the ground. I m not saying what she was doing was right and I'm not saying she was wrong. Too much perception and not enough facts to go on.

I don't use choke chains. I tend toward the belief that they maybe should be banned (outside of training facilities) because of their misuse. I prefer pinch collars. But yes my current dog was a time or two corrected by being given a quick upward jerk nearly taking her off her feet. Actually once she was taken off her feet for a moment. It was because she showed aggression to another dog on a pack walk. Pack walks as in training walks, not out for a stroll with the other doggies.

My dog is completely bonded to me. She wears a pinch collar when we go out. Training is forever. It may not look like training but every time I am out with her she is in training even if it's just re-enforcing basic manners in public. At home and with close friends and family she can be a spoiled, high energy, out of control goof. But when we go out she is expected to behave at all times.

My goodness....how did I ever raise several well behaved, happy dogs without screaming, choke chains, pinch collars, quick upward jerks nearly taking them off their feet? Clearly, I did it completely wrong.

What people consider good behavior or well behaved is relative. Otherwise we wouldn't have children running through stores as if they were at a playground. Their parents believe good behavior is anything short of having a total meltdown.

It sounds like this woman has higher standards for what she considers good leash behavior. Imagine the consequences if the one dog getting ahead of the other became an intense squirrel I see squirrel moment and goes from walking a few step ahead to lunging ahead with the other dog joining in and the poor women sledding along behind or worse letting go and dog or dogs run across the road and get hit by a vehicle. I am not saying she was right. Like I said we don't know. But seems if she were truly being abusive the others present would also be appalled by her behavior. Either they didn't see it as abusive or they believe in pack walks with behavior instead of walkies.

I consider dogs who follow verbal commands to be well-behaved and to have good behavior.

Choke collars were the norm years ago. Only one quick snap & release, no lifting off the ground.

I feel better. Monday seems like a long time ago. I'm dealing with it = my inability to keep this dog "safe".

Thanks everyone for your replies! Abuse is not training....I'm not the dumb non-dog owner, that thinks training is abuse. Abuse is just abuse! Got it!

Nicole, I'm sorry you had that experience because I know how much you love animals. I think part of the problem is the shock of it happening and then no one backing you up. It's easy in hindsight to say what one would do, but in the shock of the moment, your leaving was probably the best solution. It sounds like the "dog trainer" was not a regular of the walking group? It's really unfortunate that the woman responsible for the dog allowed it to happen.