Never buy s house that needs major surgery for you to be happy with it.

I think for your size family the spaces: family room, breakfast room, kitchen, dining and living all generally in proximity have good potential. I might consider initially how many of those walls are partition and keep an open mind , consider an offer and if you proceed....have wait period and then do a comprehensive plan of all those spaces . I can see more "open" than what you sketched, maybe double island kitchen. i'm not keen on breakfast rooms along with separate dining rooms. You can do quite a bit but the plan you show would not be my pick. Good Luck.

Your kitchen plan is functional for lots of people (as long as you want a closed kitchen).

The lack of any mudroom whatsoever would be a dealbreaker for me and my family is half the size of yours.

What are the dimensions of the kitchen?

Sorry it took so long to respond. As a homeschooling mom of six kids, the end of the school year is crazy and the days just fly by.

Emilyam819, that is an excellent point about the mudroom, and I hadn't even thought of it because I don't have one now and I was really focused on the size and number of the bedrooms and the size and location of the kitchen. .

Cpartist, the kitchen is 13'4" X 15'8". I attached a revised plan showing dimensions and the opening to the family room.

What really attracts me to this house is that each space is defined and yet also somewhat open to the others. I wouldn't like it half as much if it weren't for the 8' opening between the kitchen and family room, so it doesn't feel very closed to me, but I do see that it isn't as open as a more modern plan. I am attaching a picture that shows how the kitchen is a defined space and yet still open.

Not sure why photo of open but defined kitchen didn't show up above:

Speaking to the dimensions: It will work without the island.

Depth: 13'4" = 160"

160" - 25.5" prep sink wall depth - 25.5" cleanup sink wall depth = 109"

109" - 48" aisle b/w island and prep sink - 48" aisle b/w island and cleanup sink = 13"

13" is too narrow for a usable island (that would translate into 10" deep cabinets + 1.5" counter overhang on each side).

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Length: 15'8" = 188"

188" - 25.5" cooktop wall depth - 27" peninsula depth = 135.5"

135.5" - 48" aisle b/w island and cooktop - 48" aisle b/w island and peninsula = 39.5"

Again, 39.5" isn't really very usable.

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An island 13" x 39.5" would really be nothing more than an obstacle in a kitchen this size.

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Note: With 8 people, 48" is the bare minimum aisle width around the island.

In reality, no island would give you just enough space to move around in the Kitchen without bumping into each other.

Buehl, thank you so much for posting, you are a wealth of knowledge and I really value your opinion.

Here is my dilemma: last year, when I was trying to make a kitchen remodel work in my current house, several people were encouraging me to have 42" aisles. When I expressed concern that 42" is not adequate and quoted the NKBA guidelines on the matter (the width of a work aisle should be at least 42" for one cook and at least 48" for multiple cooks), many people responded that I should not fear 42" aisles even with a big family, as long as I don't go below 42". Now, after giving up on my current house with all its issues, and doing lots of house hunting, I have not seen a house in my area with aisles greater than 42". I have no doubt that greater than 42" would be better for us, but this may be an area I have to compromise. Is the aisle width the only issue you have with the kitchen?

How about the 60-80K to actually do this project? Plus all of the real estate closing costs and incidentals that add up to 10% of the purchase price of a home?

What about adding all of that up and see if doing a remodel/addition at that much greater cost level on the existing home would make it work better?

Or, chuck it all for old homes and build new. Remodeling is a miminim of twice as expensive per square foot as building new.

Regarding last year..unfortunately, since we were moved to Houzz, we've had people encouraging everyone to go against guidelines (and common sense). I know pros often do it in their practice b/c they're afraid of losing a client if they don't acquiesce to their client's wants/desires, but that shouldn't carry over here -- but it does.

With your family, I would never settle for 42", especially since you don't need to. Eliminating the island will free up space and make the kitchen seem much more spacious as well as allow traffic to flow through the Kitchen without having to detour around the island on one side or the other (and getting in the way of anyone working in the kitchen).

Even if you settled for 42" -- that would only add 12" to the island's depth, and you need at least 15". Standard cabinets are 24" deep plus 1.5" counter overhang on the front and back -- for a total of 27".

One of the reasons you see 42" and less aisles is b/c people want an island, whether their Kitchen can handle it or not...islands are all the rage right now!

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In my case, I also wanted an island and my KD did everything in her power to provide me with one -- even though she knew my Kitchen couldn't support it. She never told me that b/c she was afraid of losing me as a client. However, once I posted my Kitchen here, everyone very patiently explained to me WHY an island couldn't fit and I eventually realized they were absolutely right! This was in 2007. (I'll be honest, I'm glad it isn't today b/c of where I see this forum heading now that it's part of Houzz and no longer GardenWeb.) FYI...my KD admitted to me later she was very relieved when I abandoned an island -- so why didn't she tell me???? (I know why, but still...)

I love my Kitchen and every day I thank everyone who told me not to put in an island -- my kitchen would not be so wonderfully functional! I even had 16 Girl Scouts work on their Cooking badge in my Kitchen -- all working at the same time! (I have an open "U" with a line of cabs/appliances across from the base of the "U".)

Well small steps I would start with. If I were you I would pull out the island (do vinyl if needed ). Pull out the desk and put a beverage fridge so you can free space in your main one. What bothers me with the current plan and your suggested is traffic around the fridge. When it is open people would have to wait as not enough room to go around.

Mid America Mom hit on one issue -- I would increase the aisle b/w the refrigerator and the end of the peninsula to 48". Right now, you appear to have 40.5".

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Oh, one other thing...those aisles that you're showing around the island are actually 3" narrower than you think they are. You do not have counters factored into your layout. As I mentioned b/f, aisles are measured to/from the things that stick out the farthest.

In the case of your island (all sides) and perimeter runs, add 1.5" to each. So, the perimeter run is really 25.5" deep (not 24" deep as you show). Ditto the island - 1.5" all around the island for the counter overhang takes space away from the aisles.

Cabinet boxes are 24" deep. That does not include cabinet doors/drawer fronts, knobs/pulls, or the counter above. The 1.5" counter overhang above is designed to direct spills beyond the cabinet boxes and doors/drawer fronts.

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Other items...

• Where do you plan to put the MW? I recommend a drawer in the peninsula so it's near the refrigerator (where most MW'd food comes from) and water (cleanup sink). In addition, it's outside the main Prep Zone(s) so someone MWing won't get underfoot.

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• Double ovens...you have it in a doorway. That's usually not recommended b/c someone coming around the corner and running into the Kitchen may not realize an oven door is open and crash into it. I think the fact that it's off the Dining Room minimizes the chances of that happening, but it might be an issue b/c of the relationship b/w the front door and the Kitchen (going from the front door, through the DR on an angle, and into the Kitchen). Something to be aware of and think about.

Years ago (at least 70 years ago!), builders used to put the breakfast room between the kitchen and the DR. It often did double-duty as a quasi butler's pantry, one wall, being cabinets for the "good dishes". I had a couple of friends with such houses and they worked wonderfully! They were great for big holiday meals in the DR as there was a lot of space and table surface to put filled plates, sometimes even a buffet of food to then go into the dining room.

If I were going to gut this kitchen, that is exactly what I would do. I'd move that kitchen down into the breakfast area so there would be better placement of the stove and a sink with a window over it. I'd also move the opening into the LR from that area.

We bought a house 35 years ago that we knew was going to need a LOT of work. We had the money to do it. We only had one weekend in which to buy a house and we had to move by a certain date - lease was up on house there, and summer job for husband on the opposite coast.

But before we actually did anything, I contacted a realtor who was highly recommended for real estate in my neighborhood - in fact, she lived 2 blocks away. She told me that where remodeling/additions are concerned, to remember to never over-build the house or the neighborhood. She told me I really couldn't over-build the neighborhood, but if I were going to sink that kind of money into remodeling, I simply had to add square footage - my house had already appraised for the maximum per square footage in my neighborhood. That was very good advice and we added 800 sq ft to the house on the 2nd floor, by finishing the half that was unfinished and by adding a full dormer on the back. I've never forgotten that advice. Thirty-five years later, we still live in that house!

HGTV to the contrary, one only "adds value" to a house if they inherited it or bought it at a ridiculously low price. If they live in it long enough, the value may increase, but not quickly. Putting $125,000 into a remodel does NOT add that much value to the price one paid for the house! It may add SOME value, but nothing like the cost.

Flippers buy unsellable houses that are in such disgusting shape no one else would ever buy it. They do much of the work themselves. They use the cheapest materials/cabinets/appliances. And they still don't make a lot and possibly won't make any profit.

Many people in my neighborhood now automatically re-do the kitchen as it's "not their taste", but these are expensive houses and they do intend to stay for many years. They also can afford to do this.

I like Anglo's idea to move the kitchen up to where the breakfast area is now. In fact unlike Anglo though, I'd ditch the idea of having a breakfast room and a dining room and make one dining area. You still won't get an island as a U shape would still work better, but your kitchen and your dining area would both get larger and with such a large family that has to be a good thing

I guess my first question would be, can you build
Something that’s a better fit in your area?
We bought this house 3.5 years ago because it was in our favorite neighborhood, close to everything. But, the kitchen layout is completely dysfunctional and we knew coming in that we were going to have to move everything. In our area, this is a very expensive proposition. But, we live in MA and there isn’t a lot of land, so adding on or knocking down is the only option. If I could have built in a desirable neighborhood I think I would have, it’s just so much less disruptive.

It looks like I shouldn't buy the house - or I at least shouldn't remodel the kitchen if I do buy.

I wasn't expecting it would cost 60-80K to do this remodel. A friend of mine who works as a kitchen design specialist at a Lowes did a mock up that estimated 20K for the Kraftmaid cabinets and solid surface tops - and that was before applying one of the sales that come along all the time. I didn't think appliances and labor would add 40-60K to that, especially because I wasn't planning on changing the flooring and walls! But getting rid of the island and removing the pony wall in front of the fridge means a greater cost because now flooring has to be replaced and a pony wall demoed.

Like Momofthree, the house is in a great neighborhood for us because kids can walk to so many of their activities. I'm tempted to buy the house for the location and the greater space we'd have, and to just limp along with the kitchen as it is. At least it has more counter space and storage than my current kitchen, but that means giving up on the two sinks and two dishwashers that would make it so much more enjoyable for us to work together in the kitchen. Sigh!

Thank you, everyone for telling me the truth - as difficult as it is to swallow. I continue to learn a lot from this community. I especially loved Mid America Mom's idea about pulling out the desk and putting in a beverage fridge to free space in my main one. I was totally scratching my head over the desk area, and that is a brilliant idea! If I do decide to buy the house and limp along with the kitchen as is, I'm at least going to do that!

Cabinets average about 1/3 of a total kitchen budget. There’s s LOT more to it than just cabinets. Here’s my numbers from the past 5 years. This doesn’t include budgets with structural changes. Those are budgeted separately from a like for like kitchen remodel.

This is what you have today:

To merge the desk area, were you planning to leave part of the desk wall up as a pony wall and then work the cabinets around that voided space? (BTW...it doesn't have to be wasted space, you could put a cabinet in that space facing into the Breakfast Nook for linens and similar storage.)

What is the floor material in the Kitchen and Breakfast Nook? Are they the same?

Buehl, yes, my hope was to keep the pony wall so as to keep costs down. I figured the removal of the pony wall would be a bit of money in itself, but it would also require new flooring, which would significantly add to the cost. I don't care much for the pony wall or the floor, but I am a homeschooling mother of six who has to prioritize function and cost, and my priority is to have two sinks and (if possible) two dishwashers because I'd like two or three people to be able to work in the kitchen at the same time, and as cost effectively as possible.

So, yes, for cost reasons, I was hoping to work the cabinets around that voided space, either with cabinets or a beverage fridge facing the breakfast nook. I rather liked the idea of the fridge because it would look more intentional and it would keep the traffic for the main fridge down. And when I say "desk" I mean it's currently just a bit of counter with a chair, no drawers or anything, so sliding a fridge under that counter would work if I decide to limp along with the kitchen as is. If I keep the kitchen as is, the laminate wouldn't bother me in the least, and the cabinets are builder grade garbage, but at least there are a lot of them; the killer for me is that I fear that everyone will be crowding and bumping on the side of the fridge/sink/range while no one uses all the counter space on the other side.

I attached two photos that show that your guess of 36" desk width is close to the mark. And you can see the tile floor is the same in the kitchen and breakfast nook. It also shows the pinch point in front of the fridge really well :-(

Tile -- yes that would be more expensive to patch/replace. I was hoping you were going to tell me vinyl b/c then it wouldn't be that expensive to replace!

Do the previous owners have left over tile? When we put in tile floors we got an extra box for future repairs (which have come in handy as one of our tiles broke when something heavy was dropped on it.) If you do have extra tile, it may not cost that much to remove the island and patch the floor with the extra tiles.

If they don't have extras -- what about putting different tile down where the island is -- make it a focal point or maybe look like a rug or some such?

Another thought...

What finish were you thinking for the new cabinets?

You might consider replacing the perimeter cabinets now and painting the island, if needed, to complement the new cabinets. Then, someday, when finances aren't so tight, you could remove the island and patch or replace the floor.

I'd lower the pony wall so you can run the counter across the top and have all one level...it would be really convenient for staging food for the Breakfast Nook or for a party. I wouldn't put a seating overhang there, though, b/c you don't have enough room for seats at the counter + table in the Nook.

I seriously doubt that the current owners have any leftover tile as this kitchen was certainly done by the builder two owners ago. And I absolutely would lower the pony wall if it wouldn't add to the cost much, as it I think it would both function better and look better that way.

I'll keep you all posted; my realtor says that the house is just sitting on the market because of the outdated kitchen. Almost all the kitchens in this neighborhood have granite tops, sleek pulls, newer appliances, and wood floors. We have decided to buy this house only if we can get a deal on it after the seller gets tired of it sitting too long, so that we have money to make the changes that would suit our family. Even if we get a deal, though, the changes to the kitchen will have to involve compromises to keep cost down but improve function. I can't justify $60-80K on a kitchen renovation when I have six kids to put through college!

A cleanup sink and dishwasher by the pass-through would greatly increase function. Good luck on a lower price!

Some of your comments have larger than average wants attached. That’s moving you from an average cost kitchen towards an upscale kitchen cost. 135K. Plus the 10% costs of selling and buying and moving.

You need to look at your big picture here. Moving costs money, even if you do nothing to the new house and it doesn’t even need window treatments. And that’s not realistic.

New old houses always need something. And that something is usually not cosmetic. Like new HVAC, or a new roof. Or both. There went more than half of the average 65K kitchen Remodeling Budget, just on home maintenance.

Figure up that 10% moving costs. Figure up that 140K cost of an upscale kitchen that you are creeping your want list towards. What would that buy you in your existing home? Or, given that you seem to want to move, what would that extra 130K added to your budget buy you in a new to you home? Would that get you a kitchen and a home that is “acceptable” to you without doing renovations more than a paint job?

If not, the issue isn’t the renovations “needed” or the costs of the homes. The issue is you swallowing the HGTV marketing about everyone getting their “dream homes” with an fake and unrealistic budget. It makes for good TV drama. It makes for a lousy and broke real life to chase that fantasy.

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2019/

emilyam, yes, I agree. I am thinking I don't want the house at all unless I can increase function that way, esp. after everyone has helped me see the flaws like the pinch point in front of the fridge.

GreenDesigns, thank you for keeping me realistic. And you are right about the HVAC - we checked the age, and it is original to the house, 2006. The house would have to come down very seriously in price now for me to want it. But I have to admit that I still want it because of its size and location. Sigh.

Question for Buehl (and anyone else who'd like to share their two cents). You recommended lowering the pony wall to run the counter across the top near the breakfast nook but not putting seating. Would you recommend lowering the wall on the side with the family room? There is counter jutting out for seating on the family room side now - though the current owners aren't using it that way in the picture below. I think lowering the wall to have the counter all one level makes the kitchen more open and gives you lower, more comfortable bar stools. But then the clean up sink (and everything else in the kitchen) would be more visible to those in the family room. Thoughts?

is it possible to install the two dishwashers on either side of the current sink (at a reasonable cost)? Put an undercounter fridge where the desk (!) is. Remove the island totally, fill in with what tile you think will look great (or if it doesn't look great use an area rug). Would that make the kitchen better than what you currently have? Would the cost (in your area) be low enough to make this worthwhile? Are the current owners willing to leave any window treatments? Are they willing to purchase a home warranty for the new owners? even if this doesn't give you the 'dream kitchen' will it vastly improve your current situation?

Thanks about my mini fridge idea. We have had many years of living in a house with 5 or 6 folks and those drinks - milk - pop - juice - beer .. take up way to much valuable space. We are currently 5 with the main fridge and a mini. No room nor need for two fridges here with this. I would not write this off until you !get a handle on the costs! and I do not recall your dilemma with current and all that and I admit not going to dig. It sounds like you got cabinet cost GOOD start. SO. People will tell you such and such will be so much. Well that depends on a bunch of factors. Are you ok with doing a kitchen for YOU? Ok with not so expensive finishes to get into the area/house you want but with more function? So not stone but maybe butcher or laminate counters. Do a not too expensive floating vinyl plank floor (easy to replace and demo). backsplash wall - well folks have had painted gloss walls for years or try removable wallpaper- again really easy to change to tile or repaint when you can do it. Can you do some work yourselves? Want a contractor? We had our contractor walk through two of our homes before we bought so we had a good idea what it would cost to do the changes and negotiate. Act as your own contractor? Bring trades in to say how much another sink would cost, update electric, lay down a new floor. We did not have a contractor for three of our kitchen remodels. We hired trades. Rent a dumpster and do demo as a family. Borrow and rent tools to help with that. Save money by NOT removing /cutting down walls nor replacing any working appliance. If no need to go down to studs then don't. If worried about pinch at fridge well--- maybe move that into the breakfast room space. Is it a pantry now? If so is it wide and tall enough (add electric and a water line if you like ice). Yes it is outside the main area but then a fridge should not be in the middle of the action - sinks are. Do the mini fridge with a small drawer cabinet next to it in the space. Remove the overhang on the family side at least. So I would highly encourage you to find what is the min. thing that is acceptable, get that priced and work from there (too much than non starter but if less - do more bells and whistles). It can be time consuming and frustrating but also enlightening ... if you pass on this you might visit other homes that need some of the same work. At least you have some idea based on your standards/goals. OH- Has anyone even tried to get a contract on the house? Some folks might have gone in and said yes I would buy it but knock off x due to the kitchen based on "industry or average costs in this area" BUT not YOUR numbers. Yours might be more palatable to the seller. Just saying.