Well I disagree here. Dye is something you are putting into your system that shouldn't be there. Adding a dye is completely unnecessary to find a refrigerant leak in a residential style AC system.

The main reason companies use dyes (on residential HVAC) is so they don't have to buy expensive leak detection equipment, but they charge you money for a test that takes many days to a week to perform and is expensive to perform due to the labor of the technique.

Dyes are IMHO only necessary on larger HVAC systems that hold over 50lbs of refrigerant. Because of the amount of the refrigerant, the unit is only allowed to lose so much refrigerant per year until leaks need to be repaired under EPA guidelines.

Because commercial equipment is so much larger than residential it can be very difficult to find smaller leaks. So the use of dye aids in that process.

In the video embedded below I show how I perform a Freon leak test. No dye is used. The video is long... so if you only want to see the leak test go to 3 min 25 seconds in the video. There is a lot of good information in the video below, it won't hurt you to watch the whole thing.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

"I did a little troubleshooting and found when I reset the breaker, start the system up again, it would work for about 15 min and then stop again"

When you reset the breaker and run the system for 15 minutes, does the AC produce cold air like it did before you had this issue? If it does then I don't see how it can operate with no refrigerant.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling this tech doesn't know what he is doing. Do you have the Evolution thermostat? If you do, then the first thing the tech should have done is go into the service menu and look at the diagnostic codes. That should give an indication of why the system is shutting down after 15 minutes.

Hi all,

Thank you for your input! I value it greatly.

tiger, so glad you responded! I am glad that you feel the dye test is what should be done, as I was unsure.

mike, the a/c was putting out a little air that was barely cooled when it did engage. When I said it turned on after breaker reset, I should have been more specific! I was just referring to the compressor/fan.

Austin, thank you! I did some research yesterday and did find your videos. Very helpful!

I just got off the phone with the service manager. He said when there is no refrigerant, there is no need to check the thermostat for codes, etc., as that needs to be addressed. He said I have two testing options. 1. the dye test: advantage is that system is running for the week that the dye is moving through the system; cheaper than option 2. 2. isolation test: they turn off system for 3-4 days, isolate the system into three parts (evap coil, line set, handler), fill with pressure, then return after the 3-4 days and see what part lost pressure. He says this test is 100% effective but costlier due to labor involved (no parts, really).

I did call another reputable HVAC company and they also use the dye test.

So, what should I do?! I would like to make a decision today to get on the books before it gets warmer...

Thanks!!

for the OP...i think it's obvious your evap coil will need to be replaced. Your dealer should go ahead and be investigating availability of the replacement. The recharge with dye will verify the leak and location plus get the outside condenser coil checked as well but should also allow you some quality AC until the replacement coil can be installed. Not sure how important that is to you and your family. I have recently had exactly the same situation and my AC (Trane XLi ) has been purring like a kitten until new coil will be installed. Well worth the cost for me.

IMO

Thanks, Tiger!! I am going to double check my warranty on the coil. I hope it’s 10 years and not 5. I will go ahead and schedule the dye test then. Luckily it isn’t too warm here yet (yesterday was hot but cooled significantly last night and today). I guess if this had to happen, I’d rather it now than in mid-summer!

Realize the dye test is not fool proof.

The electronic sniffer has a long wand to get back into equipment nooks and crannies. That is the difficulty presented in residential HVAC systems.

Using dye to leak search means you have to open everything up because you rely on visual pattern typically using a ultraviolet light to see the florescent dye. This can present a lot of problems with various configurations of residential style HVAC equipment.

Isolation method is very old school method. The problem with this method outside of the labor performing it is notation of the charge and then hoping that the conditions don't change the reading. (Temperature can change the reading, not to mention if you remove the instrument that is reading the pressure in the isolated parts of the system)

Nitrogen is common gas used to perform isolation test, the pressure can change 1 psi for every 10 degrees of change in temperature.

Under all circumstances: The person doing the work has to know what they are doing.

25%: The amount of knowledge needed to do air conditioning work.

75%: The amount of knowledge one does not have that leads to more work for themselves.

With that said, even electronic leak search can present false positives. So you still have to know what you are doing.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Thanks, Austin. I appreciate your advice. I do know that the dye test isn’t 100% foolproof. We debated doing isolation test for this very reason. We decided on dye test bc it is slightly cheaper and we will have a/c while test is performed. The detection rate seems high. So we are going to pray it works!! I’m not sure if it’s my traditional old school area or what but it seems like the companies around here mostly use dye test and isolation test.

Tiger, I did confirm that our main hvac components have a 10 year warranty, so that’s good. Of course, if leak is in line-set, that is out of warranty

They are coming today to put the dye in. I’ll let you all know what transpires.

I think you're going in the right direction. You obviously have a leak (these are sealed systems and shouldn't lose refrigerant). 90% of leaks are from evaporator coils, 9% from condenser coils and less than 1% from linesets (providing they are in a protected location). If the dye test works, great. If not, you'll have to go the isolation route.. Figure around $1000 to replace the evaporator coil, maybe a little more for a condenser coil (assuming the parts are covered by warranty). In the unlikely event it's the lineset, hopefully, it's not concealed inside interior walls................

this is where the dealer tries to get the homeowner with ridiculous labor charge. The evap coil itself should be a warranty replacement.

IMO

Sktn, line-set exposed so that’s good!

Tiger, I assume that’s the case with labor but not much I can do. I live in a HCOLA. Such is life. At least with this knowledge you all assist me with, I feel somewhat empowered. Thank you!

So, an update. They came to do dye test. But when they found out there’s no refrigerant at all, said isolation test would be better. There were two guys, an elder and a junior tech. The elder said they’d have someone come out in the morning. But in meanwhile, he told younger to put some nitrogen in to see if he could hear any visible leakage. And he did. It’s the compressor. He took a pic. Oil leaking, etc. So, good news is compressor should be under warranty. Bad news is I don’t have a/c until that comes in. And it’s a holiday weekend. Blah! But hopefully this will get resolved very soon!

Know your HVAC terminology...compressor or outside condensor coil?...

Tiger, definitely the compressor.

compressor terminal plug blew most likely, while rare it does happen. I'm surprised they didn't figure this out on the first trip though. Those are pretty easy to detect most of the time.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Thanks, Austin. I did ask why the first guy didn’t even bother to look. Really irritating. It was super obvious once the guy took a/c cover off.

for OP...any idea yet on your out of pocket?

TD

I came to respond no, but then she called. So, compressor is covered. She will call Bryant today. Of course labor is not. She said that when they install, they will have to do a nitrogen test as well, which could take up to 7 hours. Basically, my out of pocket could be up to $1800. Disappointing but not sure what else I can do.

not surprised but that price is ridiculous!...they have got you!...I would want to know what warranty you are getting for new compressor, probably one year...

IMO

It is ridiculous. She said the test could take up to 7 hours. So the $1800 is (hopefully) worst case scenario. One of the downsides of living in a HCOLA!! I will be sure and ask about the warranty for the new compressor. I appreciate your assistance!!

That's still outrageous. The pressure test should be paty of the compressor replacement labor - $800 to $1000. Of course, prices are regional and arbitrary. They aren't doing you any favors!

Sktn, totally agree.

I see why they do these old fashioned leak search methods now. I doubt I could ever make that work where I live. (Katy, Texas)

But why are they going to do isolation test if they already found the leak in the compressor? It's extremely rare to have more than one leak.

I think they are just looking to camp out at your door to try to sell you something more, because an isolation test is extremely hard to pull off without more questions than answers as I explained earlier.

Austin, they said they aren’t do isolation test. They told me when they put on compressor, they have to do a nitrogen test on the compressor to make sure it is secure (or something to that effect). I questioned it too and they said it is not the isolation test.

So, here is the update! It was the compressor. They ordered it from Bryant and came to install it. It didn't take as long as they said (about 3 hrs). Two guys. They did a nitrogen test to make sure it wasn't leaking. All is good and a/c is working well! All refrigerant was gone so there was the $$$ - needed 13 lbs. of refrigerant. At $87 per pound. Ugh. So total with labor and refrigerant was $1850 ish. Ridiculous and expensive but not much I could do.

Thank you again for all your help! I am so appreciative of this forum. It has saved me time and again!

comfort yes but highway robbery...gives the industry a bad name...

That is quite a bit for 410 refrigerant, (I am assuming 410) but I am glad you are back up and running. The price to be cool.

You were charged $1131 for refrigerant and $719 for labor and materials? Why do HVAC repair companies do this? Do they think it makes them look better in the eyes of the customer?

I normally would not recommend this, but you can buy a 25 pound canister of R410A on Amazon for $140 with free shipping. I would have offered to buy the refrigerant and told them they can keep whatever is left over as a gift. They would of course object to this. You could at least make the point their pricing scheme is absurd. You are going to pay $1850 in either scenario.

Glad to hear you are keeping cool and hopefully this compressor will last a long time.

I agree with all of you. Highway robbery is right. I need to befriend some local HVAC guys- then maybe they’ll charge me a good rate!

Even calling around, it seems all the pricing is similar. I’m over a barrel.

By the way, do you think it matters if I have an authorized Bryant dealer do the servicing in the future? My installer, who also did this repair, is the only local authorized Bryant dealer. I would love to use someone else but want to be sure I’m not shooting myself in the foot somehow.

Take what I am about to type with a grain of salt, this is my personal opinion on this matter. I buy my own equipment and have HVAC guys I know do the braising and vacuum of the system. I could care less about the warranty, here is why. I recently paid $1200 for a 4 ton 16 seer Goodman for one of my properties $748 for the furnace and $300 for a boxed coil. The unit it replaced died in the middle of a hot Texas summer. I paid a HVAC guy I know $1000 cash to stop what he was doing and get over to the property and connect all this and vacuum the lines. Point being I can buy a whole condensing unit for cheap, pay a tech anywhere from $500 to $1000 dollars to connect it and be done with it. To hek with the warranty. Even if he completely botches the install, it is still cheaper to just buy another unit than deal with replacing the compressor. I also keep caps and contactors in my garage even spare fan motors. I don't like to be hot nor do my tenants, but I am not paying the inflated prices that the "PRO's" charge.

^^^^^^ Sad but true. Unfortunately most homeowners don't have your wherewithall, so they are stuck getting robbed blind by HVAC companies.

And before you cry foul, Austin, you may be the exception to the norm.

Well you can attempt to do whatever you want, but what happens if the tech makes a mistake and burns your house down?

That tech doesn't have insurance for such things, he blows into the wind.

Just to be clear anyone with a driver's license and $20 can become a 'AC tech' in Texas.

With that said, you could cross the street without looking several times and get away with it. Until one day...

If you hire unlicensed, uninsured contractors... you are the GC and are ultimately responsible for anything that goes wrong.

Austin, you are one of the few guys who seem to be fair. Unfortunately the vast majority of HVAC companies I have encountered are not. I run two businesses and in neither of my business ventures do I get to charge a 500% + mark up on my services. I have overhead just like any other business. Rent I pay for my office and warehouse, insurance, employees, fuel, maintenance etc etc. The system I cited specifically in this thread, my cost $3248.00 installation included versus the 13k to 17k I was quoted with out even looking at the property in question.

The Techs that work for me do the manual labor lifting, brazing, putting on mastic and crap like that. All the electrical and gas connections I do myself so I know it was done properly. I have done this for well over 20 years. I know what I am doing, but I don't call myself a PRO. I do it because it benefits me greatly. Do I run into problems that stump me, sure. That is when I call my guys.

"Just to be clear anyone with a driver's license and $20 can become a 'AC tech' in Texas. "

Yea, I have seen some techs, I would not let some of them work on my lawn mower much less let them into my properties. The guys I use are good quality men. I just did not choose them at random. In fact one of them approached me and he has been a great asset to me for over 10 years. I pay my guys well and they do good quality work. If the property burns down because of brazing or any other reason that's why they are insured, we will just prey no one dies and property damage is the only casualty. There is not much argument anyone can give me as to why I should spend 13k vs 3k for the same exact thing and chances are they were quoting the "cheap stuff".

I realize not everyone can or even wants to do what I do. I don't particularly care for hanging out in attics, crawling around on rafters when it feels like 130 F up there. At the end of the day when I am successful, I fell pretty good about fixing it and the fact I kept my money in my pocket.