"Haha, shead, love "Well, I've never heard of rocket surgery...."

Let's pretend it was intentional humor."

It definitely was on my part ;0) Not so sure about DE's....lol.

Seriously, though, I don't know that I have ever heard that phrase before. Urban Dictionary was very enlightening (especially Definition #4).

Not 100% sure what that means...

I will happily explain it. There is no subcontractor who has such far reaching consequences as the framer. Poor quality framing can come back to bite you in the rear more than anything else.

I am going to need some real evidence if you are suggesting that you live in an area that violates the laws supply and demand. If you know of an area where poor framers demand the same money as excellent framers, please inform me cause that will be an easy publish and a world tour of guest lectures.

I have also GCed a few homes and am currently involved in two commercial developments. Good quality costs more upfront, always. Craftsmen don't work for apprentice wages anywhere, and since a bad framing job can have an incredible ripple effect it is not the place to see significant savings.

Depending on the location... It could be in the ballpark

That is immaterial to the case at hand. You are never going to cut a framing labor budget down by 45% in any area without a serious sacrifice to quality. You are suggesting that the framer submitted a bid to the GC at 183% of reasonable cost, hoping no one would notice. Then the G.C. passed it on as reasonable without getting another bid. It just doesn't happen. The framer may be inflating the bid a bit, but you are not cutting the bid in half without consequences.

ETA: The quality of some home you purchased in the past, for which we don't know cost information, is immaterial to this discussion on costs.

ETA2: It doesn't matter if it is an actual bid or unit costed by builder. You are not cutting a framing budget in half, without sacrificing quality. Do you really think a builder who is unit costing the framing missed it by double?

@ I will happily explain it. There is no subcontractor who has such far reaching consequences as the framer. Poor quality framing can come back to bite you in the rear more than anything else.

Unless of course, it is a foundation contractor or HVAC, or plumbing, or window and door, or drywall finisher ...

I personally never user "framers". I can not. My insurance would lapse the coverage. I use the outfit with the valid insurance certificate and the crane. Besides I work like a mad man, verifying dimensions and checking subfloor glue, verifying plumbing of every wall, remeasuring, leveling the kitchen. The outfit I use does not "violates the laws supply and demand", because we paid more than the national builder... and they are framing 100s houses per year.

All my subs are aware that I pay fast. They do not have to wait 30 days or 60 to get paid.

> You are never going to cut a framing labor budget down by 45% in any area without a serious sacrifice to quality.

There is a shortage of framers right now. This was not a bid line item rather a builder estimate. It may have been overstated to begin with. I do not pretend to know what DWF cost schedulers are.

bry911 do you presume to know the going rate for framers in the DFW area?

Yes, I thought that was rather obvious.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

D E,

That allowances are too low for me. For example, I'm planning to spend $10,000 for appliances, $9000 for windows, and $18000 for cabinets.

found this plan online and I like it. I meets my needs mostly. I would change the kitchen plan a little. Can the experts here review and let me know any issues you see?

https://www.frankbetzhouseplans.com/plan-details/Eldridge

What are your demographics (age, kids and ages, etc.)? Do you intend to age in place at this house?

the open to below areas would kill it for me.

I'm 40, 1 kido and intend to age in this house. Kido is special needs and he will be with us, not moving out when he grew up.

Roy, that Frank Betz home plan is fine, and probably would work for you and 99% of homeowners. I'd probably make a couple of small adjustments. It could use a powder room on the first floor, depending on how often the guest bedroom gets used. Also there's a coat closet near the garage entry, but nothing in the main entry.

Also, I agree with doc5md about the "open to below" areas. We had a 2-story foyer in our vacation home and renovated it to close it up and add an office on the second floor. Not only did it look bad from the outside, but it was wasted space. Those very high ceilings can make a room feel cavernous and they amplify sound, causing annoying echos. (Our 4-year old daughter called it "the echo house.")

Just curious about what changes you would make to the kitchen?

Roy Mathew "found this plan online and I like it. I meets my needs mostly. I would change the kitchen plan a little. Can the experts here review and let me know any issues you see? https://www.frankbetzhouseplans.com/plan-details/Eldridge "

that plan has several positive things about it, and if it works for your family then it is perfect! everything else is just personal preference. I , like the others, do not prefer an open to below area (cost)but ive been in some houses where they work GREAT

This has a lot of what you are looking for... I would put in an island with seating instead of the u-shaped thing. And move the pantry down next to the dining room, shoving everything upward. I do agree a hall closet would be useful or at least a short wall to put some hooks on or a small table. Your "porch" out front isn't that deep anyway, maybe bump that wall back a bit to allow for some extra space opposite the stairs. There is no wall space by the back entrance for a stool/bench or hooks or even a mat that doesn't end up in the traffic flow to your son's room. Bump out the garage in front if needed.

This is where I said, WALK through this plan in your mind. Think about the furniture you have - actually draw it on the plan. Do you have a dining room buffet? Perhaps consider a bump out to accommodate it and still leave enough room in your dining area for a table.

Does the door in the back of the breakfast area lead to the backyard? What if you put a door on the side (near where the pantry is now) and had windows along the back wall to allow for better space for a small table. Good luck!

And I agree with much of what has been said about the upper catwalk. Very noisy, hard to heat. You could turn that catwalk into a wider hallway with storage on the LR side and have the LR vault to one side for extra openness.

Roy, have you indicated the compass orientation of the site/the house? If the many rear facing windows look south, great! If north, major winter heat loss.

Also, does the lot size or your own preferences dictate having a 2 story house? On another post, many people insisted that one could not age without a main floor master.

I still love the original plan I posted..... so, I revisited (so many times) and revised it. I was able to look at it with a fresh brain after all the ideas thrown out here. Here it is, ...that mudroom, bath area is the area that I'm struggling to manage. The main changes are:

The livable area sqft came down from 2829 to 2380 by eliminating kitchenette, dining room, and reducing the sizes of office and living room.

1. Converted the walk-in kitchen pantry and closet space into a 5.6 x 7.6 mudroom with a sliding door to the kitchen. We need this room to keep the snow and mud in Maine away. Is that space enough and am I placing the door from garage in the right place and orientation?

2. Reduced the office space from 10 x 14 to 10 x 12. It's used occasionally. So, 10x 12 is good enough.

3. Rearranged bathroom. Used the space from kitchen workstation and used it to create a 6 x 6 bathroom with a shower and a closet for the office. Please review and provide your suggestions there.

4. Lost my kitchen pantry and thinking about two options (red broken boxes). a) have a pantry (shelves) behind bath wall, which may take some space to freely move around away, or b) at the kitchen corner which was originally drawn for refrigerator, but I'll have the ref next to sink.

5. Reduced the Living room space from 14 x 15.2 to 12 x 15.2. That change will not affect the family room significantly as the Dining and Family room are in an open concept and the dining is 14.9 x 15.6 and I can "reduce" it to 12 x 15.6 to still keep the original size of family room.

6. I no longer have a formal dining room. One idea is that, if possible, I'll bump out living room 2ft to the front and will use the 12 x 18 dimension for a Living-Dining Combo room.

Let the ideas flow.....

.

Based on your demographics, is your desire for a two story house due to cost factors or something else? IMHO, I would think a smaller square footage but one story house could "live larger" and better suited for your future needs (aging in place and adult child living at home).

Obviously, your unique circumstances will determine your space and layout requirements. And FWIW, I have a child that will most likely be with us long-term as well so I'm planning our upcoming renovation/addition keeping that in mind as well. For instance, can this child function with some autonomy as an adult and therefore wish to have his/her own living quarters with a kitchen area, etc. or will the child need much more supervision than that? You don't have to answer that here but it's just something that I'm sure you know you need to consider as well as the possible need for live-in or occasional "help" if you are out of town, hospitalized, etc.

Generally speaking, having a master bedroom on the main level is better for aging in place unless you leave room to add an elevator. I'm not sure if your main level small bedroom is intended for you, your child, or guests. It's a little small for a future main level master.

Also, will your plan include a basement, which is generally cheap square footage? Is your site conducive for a basement? Maybe that is a way for your child to have his/her own living quarters as an adult?

shead,

I would like to have a two-story for the following reasons.

1) My son and we would like to have the bedrooms and day-time activity (cooking, watching TV, etc.) separated. So, a two story would be good.

2) Cost: Foundation is a crazy expensive business. So, I would like to have it two story. Our subdivision got a minimum 2000 sqft house size requirement. So, 2000 sqft level one only is going to be very expensive.

3. I agree that the office/bed space is not suitable for a master when we age. Our plan is to retire in this home and move out (next 25-30 years). So, I wouldn't worry if it's not master size.

I would like Also, will your plan include a basement, which is generally cheap square footage? our site conducive for a basement? Maybe that is a way for your child to have his/her own living quarters as an adult?

Yes, we will have a full unfinished basement (1100 sqft)

Your latest is still not good.

1. your son has to walk into the foyer to use the bathroom

2. Anyone in the dining room will be privy to noises in the bathroom

3. It would be much nicer for your son to have windows on two walls for light and cross ventilation.

4. 10' x 12' is quite a small bedroom and will be especially small feeling as your son grows.

5. 16' long is quite a long passage from foyer to living room

How large is your lot again?

I know you're worried about using an architect, but have you considered working with architectrunnerguy? Look him up. He's done quite a few remote plans and everyone seems to be happy with his work and I don't think he's charging anywhere near what you experienced with the architect you called.

I believe ARG does conceptual designs that clients take to a local drafter or builder. The cost should be comparable to purchasing online plans and modifying them to fit the site. The advantage is you get a plan tailor made for your site and family. You may also be able to work with a local architect the same way.

You mentioned you met with an architect you like, but the cost for full services was too much for your budget. Ask him/her what they would charge you for a conceptual design only.

Most architects like the conceptual part the best and would be more than happy to hand off the drudgery of producing contract documents.

The door from garage to mudroom swings the wrong way. You'll have to open it almost to the wall for more than one person to enter at a time. Consider changing sliding door to regular - easier to use when bringing in groceries, etc.

cpartist

Your latest is still not good.

1. your son has to walk into the foyer to use the bathroom

At this point, I don't think he will use that bedroom. We will have a master and bed room on he second floor and he wouldn't use the bedroom on the first level. It will be mostly a guest room or as needed for us.

2. Anyone in the dining room will be privy to noises in the bathroom

I'm helpless here. I have a limited budget. Cant dream more than that.

3. It would be much nicer for your son to have windows on two walls for light and cross ventilation.

4. 10' x 12' is quite a small bedroom and will be especially small feeling as your son grows.

Same as answer to point 1.

5. 16' long is quite a long passage from foyer to living room

Again, my options are limited for the budget I have.

How large is your lot again?

0.88 acres

Summit Studio Architects

I met with an architect, but he was too expensive for me. I may consider contacting ARG to get a conceptual plan if it's affordable.

You can do better. Please do yourself a favor and get in touch with architectrunnerguy. It doesn't hurt to at least have a conversation with him if nothing else.

Your architect's price was likely for a full set of drawings. Ask if he's willing to do a conceptual design only. Conceptual design usually takes 15-20% of the time a full set requires. You would need to find a drafter to complete the drawings but it should be much less expensive than having the architect do it.

Whether you use online plans or drafter you will need engineering for local conditions.

Using ARG is also a good approach. Ask them both.

Limited budget should be the reason for good design, not an excuse for mediocre design.

Any idea how much ARG charges for a conceptual design?

contact him.

That allowances are too low for me. For example, I'm planning to spend $10,000 for appliances, $9000 for windows, and $18000 for cabinets.

Roy: I would highly suggest you pick out what you want (then don't second guess your decisions) and specify it on the plans. Allowances can really throw a monkey wrench into the budget. Another idea is once you have a builder, ask them if they have any relationships with supply houses. The plumber I hired allowed me to use his 25% discount at the local plumbing supply.

$9000 for window - could be really low....

I suggest contacting ARG as well.

Here is another option … I only say this because I really think you are going to have a problem budget wise. Have you considered a build on your lot plan? They may or may not have those where you live. Just an idea. You might be able to find what you are looking for and it probably would fit in your budget. It’s not custom … but you can still get options and upgrades.

"...a build on your lot plan?"

Er...isn't that what they all are? I mean...where else would one build except on one's lot?

I think he meant modular homes. It's a thing in Maine. We checked it out, but I didn't like it.

Build on your lot plan is basically a production home built on your own lot. (Not in their set subdivision or community.) You use one of their plans and can make small modifications as needed. The cost savings can be quite significant.

Huge builders (and not so huge builders) do this all over the country. These are not modular homes. These are not custom homes. But it is a home build by reputable builders with that usually buy in large quantities or “bulk” … so that can lead to savings. Oh, I’m not a he.

" Build on your lot plan is basically a production home built on your own lot. " - I used to work for one of em. The [fraud] trick that you get the shell nearly at the cost. Everything else.... is a pretty penny.

Here is am example: https://www.schumacherhomes.com/house-plans/mwr/fieldcrest-f/

Who would not want to have this beautiful house for less than 100/sq ft. I do not think schumacherhomes.com is a bad builder, but price out the house the way you want it to see the real prices.

stumpydarby, In our case, it's a subdivision in rural Maine, but the lots are owned individually and you have to build your own. So, it's a house owner driven process. There are couple of big buiders there but they are too expensive ($210-250/sqft for a medium quality house). Common practice is to hire local small builders. One good thing is that, there are lumber stores like Viking Lumber, Hammond Lumber, etc. who provide all the materials to local builders and provide some basic house packages with plans.

In our case, it's a subdivision in rural Maine, but the lots are owned individually and you have to build your own.

Which is what build on your lot builders do. I am personally not a fan, as you are really getting a slightly more expensive tract house, but they do build on your lot.

Hello everyone, I used the following site for approximate cost estimation. Is there any other site or software available online that I can use?

https://www.costtobuild.net/

Cost to build calculators are notoriously terrible as far as accuracy is concerned.

Just ran through it for my build and it was 58% of the contractors estimate. so you have an idea of how accurate.

In fact, it came very close to what my builder estimated... for example, HVAC, Painting, Flooring, cabinets, windows, door....etc. You need to do a good job at selecting at the granular level.

I think it is rare that on-line estimating services can montior and keep up with local materials, labor and overhead expenses, which vary from locale to locale. Much better sources are the local general contractors whose livelihood depends on staying current with local prices.

If you’re using that as an estimator, then you are really underfunded. That calculator is a big joke. Sell the lot and buy existing if you want cost predictability this far out without going through the process. Or look for a spot that allows mobile homes. Even those are going to be tight. Mobile homes have gotten expensive.

"In fact, it came very close to what my builder estimated"

An "estimate" unfortunatey worth what you paid for it. Maybe he used the same program?

I was good about picking appropriate (read very high) levels of finishes and everything. Still only 58%. Just a warning for all lurkers