Two completely different trees, in size, soil ph and Fall colors. Miyabe is very short fall color duration.

Miyabe Maple:

Sugar Maple:

Introducer's page on Rugged Ridge (came up at or near the top when when I searched miyabe rugged ridge):

http://www.jfschmidt.com/introductions/ruggedridge/

I hadn't seen the page where it talks about a short duration, so that's good to know. We have an ash where the leaves barely turn yellow and then fall overnight, still half green. It drives me nuts and I don't want another tree like that. Miyabe was attractive because it seems unusual.

Sorry, short duration was something I found earlier in my research. HERE:

The bark is very interesting and unusual.

Another consideration for you might be Sycamore:

Thanks for the links. I'll look into Sycamore. I am also researching Cork Tree, there is a newer one called Eye Stopper which looks like it has good yellow fall color. I think I have room for two medium-big trees, esp. if we end up losing the ash (emerald ash borer has invaded our town).

Bur Oak can have a gnarly, finned bark which is more conspicuous in some specimens than in others.

You might have some fun with this: TREES for your Yard:

You are in MN so do you know if the Twin Cities is 4b? I think it is. I am wondering if either Yellowwood or Tulip Tree would work, or if those would be taking a risk. I have never seen a Tulip Tree in any nursery around here.

By Tulip Tree I mean Liriodendron tulipifera . If anyone has any input about Sugar Maple cultivars, or has had an experience with Miyabe maple please chime in. Our old house had a beautiful old sugar maple tree with yellow/gold leaves but these newer ones look more red. I don't want it to look like the red or freemannii maples that everyone else has. But the cultivars might have improved wind resistance, disease resistance, faster growth rate, etc.

Yes, the Twin Cities would be 4b...and maybe 5a if you're in the urban heat zone.

Yellowwood has proven to be z4 hardy, but Tulip Tree is marginal. I wouldn't say it's impossible to grow it, but if you're looking for something to stay put, I'd consider something else. Yellowwood develops warm yellow-gold fall color. There are some nice specimens growing in the Twin Cities.

I love the habit of Cork Tree except for their tendency to spread via seedlings. I can't say this is a major problem in Twin Cities metro, but I've seen seedlings popping up around the collection at the U of M Landscape Arb. It's something to think about.

If fall color is paramount, I'd suggest one of the Korean x Japanese hybrids. These are small to medium trees with nice form and great color. They're not inexpensive, but readily available. Knecht's Nursery in Northfield, MN, had some nice container grown stock at reasonable prices last summer.

It's been so long since I've live down in the metro, it's a whole different world than it was back then. My 3b and sometimes 3a location limits me greatly. :o(

A plant with interesting bark, good fall color and hardy in the Twin Cities is Acer triflorum, 3-flower maple. While not common, I do see it sold is some nurseries here.

I was looking at Knect's and that's where I saw the Cork Tree, the Miyabe, etc. It also has three flowered maple. I need to drive down there and take a look. We are in the southeast suburbs so not in a heat zone. Bill_Minn I can see how that zone would be frustrating, you are so close to an area where more things would grow.

Crossing Tuliptree off my list. Still debating Yellowwod but I'd really like to get a couple large trees to put near the street, one on each side of the corner. The three flowered maple looks interesting but it also looks really slow growing. This big front yard is basically bare, other than the ash trees which we're probably going to lose. I started putting in small trees, like a Prairie Fire Crab, a honeylocust, the serviceberry. The honeylocust is the only one that will get to be a good size, but it hasn't grown at all since I planted it fall of 2017.

Pennlake, nice Three-flower specimen. I crudely transplanted mine from the old place seven years ago and it has not done well over the past few years. I've considered removing it, but I'm not ready to pull the plug. Like an old dog who's failing, I just can't let it go.

Bill, how are your hemlocks looking? My weeping hemlock, which has southern exposure, is showing some winter burn. Hopefully it comes back nicely. I'm looking forward to a thread where we can show how our more temperamental trees fared this winter.

My Eastern hemlock browned pretty bad above the snow line. Won't know how bad it is for a while.

Cork tree - as in: Phellodendron amurense ? Hmmm, zone 3 -7, might work! :o))

http://www.campustrees.umn.edu/cork-tree

yes, its very intriguing but I've hardly seen it anywhere. People at nurseries didn't even know what I was talking about when I asked last year.

Garden Lady, you may want to consider Aesculus 'Autumn Splendor', which is also a of U of M introduction. I planted one last summer and looking forward to watching it develop. Supposedly has very nice fall color and better resistance to leaf scorch than most buckeyes. Gertens, which I'm sure you've been to, would have this one.

We're really close to Gertens and I'm surprised they don't know me by name by now. I looked at the Autumn Splendor but read somewhere that Japanese beetles like them. Our yard was attacked last year. There were even swarms of them on a small spruce I planted. Do you have any insight about this?

I'd go with the Sugar Maple. I have about a dozen red Maples and they're all a yellowish color in fall, except for one which I'm led to believe is a male. I think the sugar has a much better fall color than either.

I know you won't be sugaring but I tried it two winters ago. The reds have maybe half the sugar content than the sugars. It took me twice as long burning out in the cold to get the same amount of maple syrup. So maybe this is coloring my opinion. WAIT the fall color is doing that!

' I've hardly seen it anywhere '

GL,

It's on the Invasive Species Plant List.

If you want better fall color, definitely go with the sugar over the miyabe. But make sure you have good drainage in that spot where you plant it, especially with your clay. Sugars don't like to have wet, soggy feet for too long of periods. I'd buy a cultivar over going with a native seedling if fall color duration is a must. Cultivars have been specifically selected for their outstanding fall color tendencies and longer duration of color change, among other traits. (Sometimes they don't always flame out early enough to reach their color peak though before the temps turn wintry. But maybe that's a 4A and northward problem only....? ) Where I live (zone 4A), to find a sugar maple flaming out pure red in the fall is not that common, but the soil in your yard and your local climate will dictate that. Most tend to be brilliant shades of orange and yellow more. I don't know if that is different elsewhere.

Green Mountain and Fall Fiesta are both very good options. They both have thicker, more leathery leaves than your typical sugar. Growth rate is similar. Fall Fiesta, at least in youth, tends to be more upright oval with superior branching, more consistency of orange fall color (in my experience.) Green Mountain is broader, supposedly hardier and less likely to frost crack, with more varying fall color. Again, both excellent choices.

Eye Stopper is a male clone that should be seedless (although I've seen a couple stray seeds produced on His Majesty which is also a male).

If you're looking for relatively large mature size and faster growth State Street Maple would probably be preferable to Rugged Ridge (which to me looks a lot like hedge maple). Fall Fiesta has very nice fall color, and I prefer it to Green Mountain, though I've seen frost cracks on FF in clay. If your soil is mostly clay and somewhat higher pH you could also consider black maple.

arbordave - I've heard about Fall Fiesta frost cracking on the south side of the Twin Cities' metro area but I've not once seen it where I am on the northern side. And I grow trees in heavy clay. Maybe that's purely the result of zone 4 vs. zone 5? What zone are you in? Did the trees you've seen cracked have winter trunk protection on them?

Our first house was built in the 1930's and had the gigantic sugar maple in the front yard...massive trunk, beautiful gold fall color. Never had an issue with it other than the somewhat obnoxious roots, not as bad as the silver maple which was next to it. People would stop on the road and take pictures of the tree. Then we moved to house #2, built in the 1990's and it also had what I believe was a sugar maple. But I didn't recognize it as a sugar maple because in my mind, sugar maples are yellow. That one was mostly orange with some red and yellow mixed in. Could it have been a Green Mountain? If I remember, it changed pretty late, but the red maple was even later. I don't remember any cracks on it. That one was planted in sand. The first house, the maple was planted in clay. I think our current yard has fairly decent drainage in that area., and it's sloped toward the road. The backyard drains very slowly. I dug a hole one day after it rained heavily, and it was filled with water, and two or four hours later it was still filled with water.

From looking at mature sizes, it seems like Rugged Ridge is much bigger than State Street. So I'm confused.

I also don't think the (Green Mountain?) at our last house had very good color until just a few years ago when it reached about 25-35 feet tall. For the first 8 years we lived in that house, I didn't pay much attention to the tree. I just kept wishing we had a "sugar maple" even though I think it must have been a sugar maple. I wonder why? Does the color have something to do with the soil and age of the tree? Maybe since it was planted in a beach it survived and grew but just didn't look great and now the roots have hit more water? Unfortunately for the new owners, someone planted it about 15 feet away from the house. They're going to have fun with that.

Green Mountain isn't know for consistent "great" fall color. It can be a muted yellow in some years. Its an outdated cultivar in my opinion.

Too bad you can't plant all the suggestions mentioned!

Here is one of the hybrid maples mentioned above with a tulip tree.

If consistent long lasting fall color is your priority Fall Fiesta is hands down the best option.

Can you spot it in this pic? I posted this one to show the difference with a Freeman maple.

mntreegrower - the few Fall Fiesta's with cracks were all in seasonally wet ~clay soils (not particularly heavy clay). One had been in the ground at least 8 years. Damage was on the south/southwest side; no trunk protection. Not sure if it is more a factor of extreme temp fluctuations or soil conditions(?) If the OP's site "has fairly decent drainage in that area" then FF is probably worth a try for its exceptional fall color (as whaas noted above).

"... it seems like Rugged Ridge is much bigger than State Street. So I'm confused" Just based on my initial observations (Rugged Ridge hasn't been around very long) it looks like State Street is probably a bit faster and as large or larger at maturity than Rugged Ridge.

I looked at some pictures and I think the maple planted at the last house was probably a Green Mountain. I think maybe it didn't color well in that site but at this point I'm more impressed with Fall Fiesta. At first glance it looked like the over-planted red and red/silver maples around here. But now I see more orange. I think it would look great if I also get something yellow, like the eyestopper corktree. My husband and I both think maples are overplanted but since this is a sugar maple and not a Freeman maple or red maple I don't feel as bad about it. No one in our immediate vicinity has much color in their yard. When does the Fall Fiesta start to show color relative to other trees, like ash or birch?

Next door neighbor has an oak that doesn't change to anything but a dull brownish yellow and a manchurian ash...same. Our small Sunburst honeylocust didn't do anything at all. Across the street there's a maple but it colors very early. Not sure what type it is. Other direction, a linden that just turns kind of yellow brown. Behind us, an ash that's probably going to die and doesn't really change much either. The only nice color is our tiny serviceberry, tiny crabapple trees, and a large birch behind us, but the neighbor says they are going to remove it because the trunks are spreading apart.

So we will probably get the sugar maple and maybe the cork tree. My next concern is, what happens if/when our ash dies. The ash is right in the middle of the front yard and I would need to plant the maple about 30 feet away and the cork tree about 30 feet the other direction. I am going to try to treat the ash, but if that doesn't work, would someone be able to take down the ash without damaging the newly planted trees? It's pretty tall with a 18 inch trunk. (luckily not too wide).

Fall Fiestas here in the Minneapolis area tend to flame out right around peak weekend, in relative to all trees, or a good week or so after. So not early at all. Many green ash, in comparison, are bare a week or two before then. But green ash in my area doesn't always get the chance to color up fully anyway. As soon as the first good overnight freeze hits, all the ash tend to bomb away all their leaves within 48 to 72 hours. And many native sugars can be bare or half-bare before the Fall Fiesta have even begun to go into peak. But that could be different in other areas of the country.

A good, professional tree trimmer should likely have no problem removing that ash and not hitting your soon-to-be-planted trees. They'd use climbing gear, ropes, etc. to safely bring the tree down in smaller sections.

That's good to know. I was worried it would be difficult or we would get charged more money if they can't throw branches all over the place.

I have noticed some ashes here with very nice fall color and others like ours and the neighbors fall half green. I think it must depend on the cultivar of the ash. The one on the side of our house has a rounder shape and it's color is still not great, but it is later and lasts longer than the one in the front. Same thing with the honeylocusts. Some of them look great but our Sunburst was a flop. Luckily the spring color makes up for it. It sounds like the Fiesta would have color around the same time as our Serviceberry (which was one of the last in the neighborhood to turn). I wonder where Corktree would fit into the picture. Anyone have one or see one in fall?

Likely order of fall color for the specific cultivars mentioned.

Fiirst Serviceberry

Second Corktree

Third Sugar Maple

In my experience Fall Fiesta starts to turn somewhere in the middle but tends to hang on to the point where Oaks start to turn.

Looking at the pic above there is a Homestead Buckeye that has long lost its leaves. Populars have mostly lost their leaves. A Firespire Musclewood is fast approaching peak.

Frontier Elm, Freeman Maple, Grace Smoketree, Korean Maple and Fall Fiesta are mid peak.

Molly Fordham Hybrid Maple, Crimson Spire Oak, Starburst Maackia and surprisingly the Tulip Tree are still green. Gold Rush Dawnredwood is still yellow.

My Madison and Dakota Pinnacle Birches complimented the timing of my Fall Fiesta for a yellow. Neither birch can be put in a stressful environments otherwise it increases their chances of a borer attack.

That's very interesting, esp. considering our experience last fall. The autumn brilliance serviceberry in the front was still green when all or most of the other maples in the neighborhood had lost their leaves. It coincided with the oaks that turn red. It was one of the very last trees to turn. The one in the backyard changed about a week earlier for some reason, but was still late. The Dakota Pinnacle was the very last tree to turn and stuck out like a sore thumb with bright yellow leaves when everything else on the street was bare. We live near the Bailey Nursery headquarters where they have a bunch of trial plants surrounding their parking lots with labels, and i drive past a lot. Their Dakota Pinnacle birch also didn't change til everything else had lost leaves. And their Sunburst (which is extremely enormous, like an old oak) looked like ours, leaves turning a kind of olive/copper green then falling after frost and snow. They have something labeled as a Japanese maple but I think it's a Korean maple. Japanese maples aren't hardy here. That was one of the first trees to lose leaves.

Fall color and timing is quite variable year to year and area to area but generally you should see trends for similar timing between species in the upperwest. I could be wrong but I just always remember Autumn Brilliance turning early with Musclewood.

Yes I rarely if ever get fall color on Acer palmatum & shirasawanum due to the late season frosts. I only select them for spring and summer foilage color. I'll only see fall color on Korean maple (and its hybrids) and Acer japonicum

A sore thumb or a bright thumb? lol

Yes, a bright thumb, it was a truly awesome spectacle and I'm sure everyone in the neighborhood noticed that little tree, whereas they wouldn't have otherwise. At the time, I felt like buying 10 more! It also held onto it's leaves and color for a very long time before they turned brown. I want to focus on trees that do that, since trying to figure out what colors coincide with each other seems like a pointless ordeal. I'm trying to save a little space in my back garden in hopes that someday someone will make something like a Bloodgood Japanese maple (with nice summer color) that can survive here. Hopefully it won't take too long.

State Street is a Chicagoland Grows item and is based on an old tree of some size at the Morton Arboretum.

http://www.chicagolandgrows.org/trees/miyabemaple.php

True Miyabe maple produces large hairy leaves and should not resemble hedge maple other than in also having rough twigs and maybe similar crown outlines. (And yellow fall color, of course). Small leaved "Miyabe" maples looking just like hedge maple probably are.

If I remember correctly, I don't think my Autumn Brilliance turn color that early either. That tree/shrub doesn't seem to do that well in my soil/location.

I haven't tried Rugged Ridge so I can't give you a comparison with State Street. I just planted my second crop of State Street last spring. Curious to see how they look after this last winter. I had losses with the first crop.

Interesting--what were the losses from? Autumn brilliance doing well here planted in full sun and clay soil. But I only put them in last year, so long term...who knows. They seem to be budding out nicely.

"Interesting--what were the losses from?"

I am not ready to chalk it up to a hardiness issue. The ones that died did so after the first winter. The remaining were fine and grew bigger with no problems from subsequent winters at all. That may have been the result of a number of things. Heavy clay can be unforgiving. Bare root transplanted trees can suffer root damage or drown if the disturbed area keeps getting pounded by heavy rains and drainage is fairly slow. It's possible too that they were planted a little too late in spring with not enough time to fully root in before the heat of summer arrived. Our winter is not kind to first year trees that might be struggling still into the fall.

Well, back to the original question...now that the tree has leaves and flowers, I believe it's a spring snow crabapple. I was thrown off because of the smooth bark, all if them having 4 trunks, the lack of fruit in the fall. Thank for the discussion.