Thank you for responding

In my experience in SW PA, if you amend with mulch, sand and or topsoil, even if also added manure your tree will be one size smaller. A semi-dwarf will be a dwarf. Using bags of dry fertilizer is the only way to keep the size correct. If you dig the soil, without adding anything it will mound, if just fluffs up. After that anything you add will mound it more, if you add a bag of sand it will get as much higher as if you threw the bag on the ground.

I would suggest you find a horse boarding facility or hopefully a neighbor to get some manure Add 3 inches to the soil and when you're done mound another 2 or 3 inches as a weed block. Add an inch out beyond the mound. It'll disappear as the grass grows.

I was planning on putting in a Santa Rosa plum. But my health prevents me from enjoying the wine I was planning to make. Looking at my Stark catalog they all are good to at least zone 5. And they all need a pollinator except for Santa Rosa and the Stanley prune plum.

If you're putting in one tree you might consider hauling manure on your car roof in bags, if you have any kind of car rack to tie the bags down.

If you're on a hill the drainage will be better than it might seem. But you'll be fine if you amend it as above. My neighbor just built a house next door 5 or so years ago. There was a layer of shale a couple feet down, but I can't find it here, and there are no loose pieces uncovered as I dig.

Amending of planting hole back-fill was being seen to produce a reduction in plant response (rather than an enhancement) in scientifically organized university level studies by 1969. In short it is obsolete and dis-proven practice, no matter how many people who have not done the serious testing of it swear otherwise.

Amending of anything other than agricultural fields is for annual flower, annual vegetable and rock garden beds. In other words anything involving plants with tiny root systems, that may be replaced more or less frequently. And that is all - it has no applicability to plantings of subjects with large and/or long-lived root systems, that are to remain in the same positions for indefinite periods of time.

Well, I guess I'm not scientific. But I get excellent results using manure, and peat and leafs, and compost. It's an accepted practice which isn't done much anymore because corporate farming doesn't use mixed crops methods. It has long been a practice to allow cattle into mature orchards. FarmInc doesn't either have the animals or the orchards, neither do the universities.

I'd suggest you amend the soil in the planting hole and spread an inch or so of manure out to the drip line each spring, after forking the soil.

I'd like to see a link to s study that shows that manure, or compost is bad for agriculture. If I were planting 100's of fruit tree seedlings I'd punch a hole and drop the seedling in. If I'm planting a couple for my own use I'd spend a little more time and not redo the job while losing a year.

Notice I said

Amending of anything other than agricultural fields

Also notice that amending of agricultural fields does not involve amending of individual planting holes for long term subjects like trees.

This document shows a breathtaking lack of understanding of how landscapes function, especially over the long term. It takes an agricultural practice (annual organic amendment of crop fields) and misapplies it to permanent landscapes. It is devoid of the research which continues to show that improper soil amendment can cause serious problems such as soil subsidence, perched water tables, and nutrient overloads. This last point is especially important to anyone living near aquatic ecosystems, since excess nutrients always end up in the water.

Before you plant this year, find out what your soil needs before amending it. And remember that mulching is the natural (and sustainable) way to add organic matter to the soil.

Building healthy soils?

http://gardenprofessors.com/building-healthy-soils/

So, let's just ignore that.

Let's not just ignore that. The intent of these forums is to provide accurate information or advice to questions from new gardeners.....not just "this has always worked for me so it must be good"!! Why would you want to diss scientific data??

The ill-advisedness of amending individual planting holes has been well established for a very long time. Of primary concern are soil interface issues which slow or delay water movement. This can occur with any soil type but is most pronounced with heavy clay or poorly draining soils and the result are root rots and plant death. Or at the very least, weakly growing, stressed trees that are overly susceptible to pests and diseases. Trees or shrubs planted in heavily amended planting holes are also slower to establish and start performing well as there is no incentive for the roots to move out laterally as nature intended to seek out water and soil nutrients.

It is not that manure or compost are bad for plants. They are frequently used as a mulch or topdressing. But they cannot be considered fertilizers. And they can also be great soil amendments as well....IF used in moderation and IF the area being amended is sufficiently broad. LIke the entire yard, planting row or vegetable garden. Not for individual planting holes.

I posted what I think will help Tim in response to his question. You two are just arguing, you haven't posted one positive suggestion to help Tim and and any others who read this.

Tim, follow my suggestion, find some manure. Dig 3 inches into a 3 foot diameter hole and then compare the soil with what you started with. Or just plant in that clay, it's your choice. If you come back after a week or two you'll find the amended hole has worms in it. Those worms are there because the soil is healthy, they are further improving the soil with their castings, poo. They are also drilling holes which improve drainage.

If you want to read long studies, I have a study on controlled pollinating of apples. It's about 140 pages long, but there are some colored grafts which add some interest. Good reading next winter after you've planted your plum tree.

Good luck, and I apologize for the reception to your question.

John, you posted what you think is helpful information.....we just pointed out it is NOT!! No argument at all....just pointing out incorrect and extremely outdated advice. And you never answered the OP's question either, which was what plum variety will work best in his location. At least Embo suggested inquiring with the local extension service office to get their recommendations. As with all other plants, location is an overriding factor in determing suitability...even within the same state!

I did research extensively and could find no specific plum recommendations. What I did find were cautions about where stone fruits would succeed and to avoid them in areas where winter temps drop below -20 or where one is subjected to late freezes. Plums are among the earliest of fruit trees to blossom and are very susceptible to late freezes during bloom season. Other than that, European plum cultivars are more cold tolerant than Asian plum varieties so would encourage you to focus on those. But getting local experienced and official advice would be best.

Tim

I googled "horse stables Butler Pa" and "horse stables Kittanning Pa." I found a lot near Butler, one near Sligo, and one south of Punxsie. Try the search near where you are. I expected most stables would be south of Butler, closer to the burgh.

Seems like we have a consensus on the Stanley prune plum. But I did want to try the Santa Rosa, but that's me. I know someone in Rimmersburg who might supply a few bags, maybe a pickemup truck load. If you know of an Amish farmer they will most likely have some, but they find it valuable in their fields, thus my suggestion of a stable.

I have a book from Miracle-Gro called "Complete Guide to Vegetables, Fruits, and Herbs"

Here's what they recommend for planting Plums on Pg 162

"Choose a sunny, protected location with deep, rich, fertile loam. If late spring frosts are a problem in your area plant of the north side of your property, otherwise a south-facing slope is the best site......

Spread a layer of well-rotted manure or compost under the canopy and cover that with a couple inches of mulch to the drip line, but keep both away from the trunk"

You'll notice they want you to plant in deep rich fertile loam, but you have raw clay. If you don't plant a fruit tree in that loam the tree won't grow to size you specified. dwarf and semi-dwarfs are really runts. But then on top of wanting the loam they want you to use manure and compost and then also use mulch.

On the cover page of this book it states: "Copyright © 2008 The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company"

It seems odd to me that Scotts can deal with growing plum trees using manure, compost, and mulch that a group of amateur or small farmers finds it so repulsive.

John, you are just a wealth of ill-advised and incorrect information!!

First, no horticulturist or even hobby gardener/home orchardist of any merit would give a moment's credence to anything published by Mircle Gro or Scotts!!

Second, if you read more carefully, they said nothing about amending the planting hole. The spreading of compost or manure around the dripline (avoiding the trunk) IS mulching and is a recommended practice - regardless of the product used - for any newly planted tree.

Do you actually think Scott's is growing plum trees?? Nope, they are too busy manufacturing products that pollute the environment and pushing them on unsupecting homeowners to their stockholders' profit. What they publish is just info gathered from other, unknown and perhaps suspect sources.

Tim, go visit your local extension service office (120 S Grant Ave #1, Kittanning, PA 16201) and get legitimate advice from local professionals that actually know what they are talking about :-)

The point is that a company who's business is selling alternatives to organic gardening can still see the benefits of natural products like manure, compost and mulch. These people have a more open mind than you do. If just once you'd try what you despise you'd find that they have benefits that we all can use.

John the miracle grow advice is opposite of what you suggest. They recommend manure on top of soil you say to mix it into hole. I would say their advice is good you should research why amending a hole, especially in a heavy clay soil can cause problems.

Amending soil does NOT cause problems. If you've never done any gardening you might believe this hype. You just need to do it. No one who grows this way would have a problem. What has caused problems with agriculture is reliance on manufactured fertilizer and herbicides. There is no soil improvement using this popular method. Once a month you side dress with more problems. The soil washes away with the side dressing, pollutes the water shed. If you incorporate amendments you add to the top soil. That's what I've done with my garden of 14 years. From pure clay to fairly nice black top soil.

I have grown on pure clay. I planted Country Gentleman corn in pure clay doing nothing but mowing, punching a hole and dropping in a kernel. It grew 3 to 4 foot tall, runty little cobs

I worked up a new plot last fall using manure, a little lime and a bit of potash. This plot was a lawn with a trace of top soil in the sod. I dug in two inches of manure and the sod, and then I dug in another two inches working the other way. I did mow in whatever leaves were in the area.

"Amending soil does NOT cause problems."

No one has said it does. You need to read a little more carefully. While it is seldom a requirement (depends heavily on existing soil conditions), amending soil over a large area - the larger the better - is generally not a concern. It is when you amend an individual planting hole that you get into problems.

And that fact has been thoroughly established for a long time. You can choose to believe it or not but it has been fully documented and publicized. Or perhaps you are working from a better knowledge base than the countless numbers of soil scientists, university professors and horticulturists who have conducted field trials establishing this fact and published their results...........????

And no one has disputed the benefit of mulching after planting, whether you choose wood chips, bark, compost or manures or any other organic (biodegradable) mulch product. A mulched area surrounding anything that is newly planted or on established beds helps to keep weeds to a minimum, helps to reduce soil moisture evaporation and moderates temperature swings. Although in any edible gardening situation, manures should be composted or well-aged before using as they can be excessively nitrogen rich and burn young plants as well as introduce pathogens when fresh. Manure and compost are not interchangeable terms - they are two very distinct materials. I have used compost for many years to mulch all my gardens. In time as it breaks down, it does improve soil structure, as plant roots, rainfall or irrigation and the activities of soil biology pull the organic matter down into the soil profile. That is really the most desirable method of improving soils but it is a long term proposition, not an "instant" fix.

gsrdengal48 said

"Amending soil does NOT cause problems."
No one has said it does.

melikeeatplants said

"John
the miracle grow advice is opposite of what you suggest. They recommend
manure on top of soil you say to mix it into hole. I would say their
advice is good you should research why amending a hole, especially in a
heavy clay soil can

cause problems."

The Miracle-Gro instructions for planting Plum trees above wants you to plant the tree in "deep, rich, fertile loam". There's a reason why they tell you that. Because if you don't you're dwarf or semi-dwarf tree won't grow as promised.

There's no reason why improving pure clay will be worse than planting in the raw clay on the site.

And, if you reread the third post in this thread you'll see that I also recommended "mound another 2 or 3 inches as a weed block. Add an inch out beyond the mound. It'll disappear as the grass grows." So why are you arguing with me about mulching.

Stark Bros recommends:

"

You will need:

• A bare-root tree
  • i.e., an apple, peach, pear, or almond tree
• Any soil amendments, like Coco-Fiber Growing Medium, that you plan to use
• Refill the hole with native soil (what was removed at digging time), and any other soil amendments."

Oh, I give up!! Are you being intentionally obtuse?? Re-read this thread carefully. Any cautions about amending were specifically directed at individual planting holes. Period!

Amending over a large area can be beneficial, especially in very sandy soils. But it needs to be large....ideally your entire garden or at least the anticipated root spread of the tree at maturity. Never, NEVER the individual planting hole!!

Read THIS. And pay close attention to the bottomline, especially the last two comments.

Fedco Trees recommends: as a fall preparation method

"For building high levels of humus, also add:

2 lbs. alflfa meal

2 lbs bone char or bone meal

2 lbs kelp meal

2 lbs blood meal

100 lbs compost (1/8 yard)

BioDynamic preps (optional

In the spring pull back the mulch and plant your fruit tree, incorporating the compost into the hole as you dig."

That's from their 2019 Fruit Tree catalog, pg 68

gardengal48

I read in your link near the bottom:

"This outdated practice is still required in the specifications of architects, landscapers, and other groups associated with landscape installation. It is still recommended by garden centers and gardening articles."

So what it sounds to me is that the people out in the field who actually accomplish the work and who are required to warranty the job don't agree with the professors who stand in front of 200 students and pontificate.

You will find advice to amend individual planting holes all over the internet. It is a gardening myth that was promulgated many years ago and is slow to disappear from many publications despite scientific evidence to the contrary. Often it is promoted by retail nurseries to sell amendments but just as frequently repeated by landscapers, plant vendors and even a few extension services that have not kept up to date. Just because you can find this myth repeated frequently in print does NOT mean it is accurate or valid or even very widely accepted currently.

You are free to do whatever you want but it is not of benefit to anyone else for you to continue to perpetuate this myth nor encourage anyone else to follow. You are not being helpful.......you are being counterproductive.

"So what it sounds to me is that the people out in the field who actually accomplish the work and who are required to warranty the job don't agree with the professors who stand in front of 200 students and pontificate."

Not exactly....that is a very simplistic interpretation. Nurseries recommend it because is in their best interests profit-wise to sell as many amendments as they can....often unneeded amendments. Landscapers recommend it or follow it because they are laborers, not horticulturists, and often have no horticultural education at all and minimal plant knowledge.

And the information was developed by researchers, not just teachers (although many of the university researches do teach as well).

btw, most plant warranties are at most a year long. The issues that can develop from amended planting holes often take several growing seasons to manifest.......long after any warranties have expired.

I don't care to pursue this debate any longer. You are obstinate in your views and refuse to accept any methodology that is not your own, despite all evidence to the contrary. Any further comments are just beating a dead horse.

Stark and Fedco, and others sell and guarantee a large dollar value in plant material. Youré saying they don't care how much they lose in plant material that dies. I think they have a vested interest in recommending the best practice for their customers. How much does the professor who taught you this have on the line.

You are not having a discussion when you resort to saying " perpetuate this myth nor encourage anyone else to follow. You are not being helpful.......you are being counterproductive."

A great method for the professor to protect his name, sounds kind of medieval.

Sheesh!! Read the damn guarantee details:

Stark Brothers: "If for any reason you are not completely satisfied with your purchase, let us know within a year of delivery and we will send you a free one-time replacement or refund your full purchase price."

And even more limiting, Fedco: "Occasionally, plants incur damage during shipping. If limbs or tops are broken, prune to the next good bud. The plant will do fine. We guarantee to ship you a plant that is healthy, will leaf out, and is true to name.

We expect that you will care for the plant from the moment it arrives, plant it in a timely fashion, water it (about 1" per week after bud swell) and protect it. Because we have no control over growing conditions such as weather, SOIL, cultural practices, pests, wildlife, or weed whackers, we cannot guarantee a plant’s survival past leaf break.

If you see no sign of life, scratch the outer bark with your fingernail. If the inner bark is green, the tree is still alive. Some plants take longer than others to break dormancy, so you may need to be patient.

If you have thoroughly cared for the plant and it dies, we will refund the cost of the plant. In some cases, we may choose to issue a partial refund. We cannot offer replacements.

Inevitably, some plants die through no fault of yours or ours. If a plant dies during the first growing season, don’t hesitate to contact us. We will work with you to determine what went wrong. We are partners in the endeavor of filling the planet with plants and we want you to succeed.

Claims must be made no later than July 31st of the year the plant was received."

None of these have a guarantee policy that extends beyond the first year. And issues with amended planting holes do not necessarily - in fact, seldom - show up in the first growing season. It takes time - several years - for a tree to establish and develop a proper root system and any encumbrances to this development - like a heavily amended planting hole - will also not become apparent immediately. Except perhaps with root rots from an amended clay planting hole. Those can be quite rapid to manifest. But not at all the vendor or nursery's responsibility.

I have more to say but when someone resorts to calling others morons, I'm done.

I deleted those comments.

I worry about your reading comprehension. At no point anywhere in this thread did anyone call you a moron.

gardengal48 said:

"Nurseries recommend it because is in their best interests profit-wise
to sell as many amendments as they can....often unneeded amendments.
Landscapers recommend it or follow it because they are laborers, not
horticulturists, and often have no horticultural education at all and
minimal plant knowledge."

Landscapers hire laborers, but it does not follow that landscapers are laborers, and while many may have no horticultural education, it also does not follow that they have minimal plant knowledge.

I could criticize people like you have done, but I won't stoop that low.

Anyone reading here that IS interested in accurate and modern gardening information should check out the Garden Professors blog pages I linked to above.

john how can you quote me and not get it right? This thread is comical and sad at the same time. Sorry for the op it turned into this.

melikeeatplants

I copied and pasted what you said, I did however put a carriage return in the quote to highlight what was said didn't happen here. If that bothers you I apologize.

I would also like to say that I have known people who had no education and no professional experience whose knowledge of gardening, and growing and plant reproduction I deeply respected. The only landscaper that I knew well enough to have respect for was over a discussion about raising cattle.