Yes, I do think parents may be harder on the first born. As more babies come along, we let up a little. There are just so many hours in the day. Nevertheless, the eldest does seem to have an advantage with all the special attention of being the only, and then oldest.

I believe it was Gardner who explained the 7 Intelligences, and some have been added since. The 7 Intelligences were math, kenesthetic, linguistic, self knowledge, music, Interpersonal, spatial. Reading a brief description of his theory might help you understand yourself and your child better.

With 4 kids, I think it natural for you to expect more from her. Lots of reading material on birth orders. I would encourage her to have her own friends and activities outside of her siblings. How is she at school? Often, a teacher or guidance counselor can "see" traits of your child that you cannot. Does she participate in after school activities?

It is tougher for me to judge as my oldest was a boy the next two girls. It's just not same same. Our first are truly experiments. We learn what works, what doesn't with them. As we feel success or maybe failure we change our parenting accordingly. For me with two turning out as I would hope for them the pressure on ME was less so it only follows my fears for the third were lessened and so I parented differently. My son wanted to be a boy scout. At some point the cost, the commitment from he and his dad drove us to INSIST ok then YOU WILL BE AN EAGLE SCOUT. He was all for that when he went from cub to boy scout. Not so much later, so we told him no eagle no driver's licence. Motivation goes a long way. A friend asked me "what will the girls have to do"? Fair question but the answer, not so much. When my son was my only one and he was a little guy he was shy. I was having none of that. You respond when people address you etc...I think the Boy Scouts backed up and encouraged more outgoing behavior. My youngest is most like him but she had an older sister to keep up with, compete with so her shy was more naturally and internally challenged. Truth is if THEY are happy who are we to insist on a mold? It's a dance. When my son wanted a toy kitchen (I picked on up for a friend at a garage sale) my mom told me 'maybe he will be a chef someday' and that it is a parental job to help a child develop their interests. He is not a chef but he does still love to cook. Socialization has its ups and down sides. 11 is the beginning of some very treacherous times. All she needs is one or two very good buddys. If she has that she will be content. I would look for extra curricular activities that tie into her skill set. Knowledge Bowl, Forensics, robotics she needs to find like minded intelligent people to hang with.

My oldest, like yours, is so much like me it is scary. Family and friends are always commenting on it. Because she is so much like me, it took me a long time to realize that she is unlike me in many, many ways and to celebrate that. Often, I would assume that she was scared of things I was or that she liked things I liked and I was kind of shocked when she didn't.

You're right to be self-reflective about it (so many of our parenting quirks go unexamined) and, I think, that's the sign of a great parent.

I teach young kids and know that many of those normal social behaviours come naturally to some and need to be explicitly taught to others. Maybe they won't ever come naturally to her, but she can learn them. Gentle reminders (emphasis on gentle) to say hello, to ask how someone is doing, or to look people in the eye, will take her a long way.

Gifted children develop asynchronously, which is exactly what you described. Help your daughter find her strengths. Lay off the deficits, or outsource those to a pro. Speech therapists can help your daughter with social speech. A few one on ones can open up a lot of options. You focus on helping her find herself. An educational psychologist and wise parent once told me my job was to find three areas my children excelled at. Ask the gifted teachers for advice on social speech support. They will know if your daughter could benefit from a pro boost and they will know who works well with gifted kiddos.

PS hang out with moms after drop off and listen to which child they are talking about most. It’s usually the eldest. All new territory.

I think we were tougher on the oldest because she was the first to break barriers-going to the movies with friends, driving, dating, etc. Just curious (hope I don't offend)-have you ever read about aspergers? From what you describe, its worth reading about. Some people are just wired differently.

Each kid is an individual, different from their siblings and from others, with different strengths and weaknesses, different likes and dislikes, needs, different personalities, etc.,

I know you understand that TG. I think you're over-analyzing the situation. Keep an eye on each kid, try to tailor what you do and what they do to their individual differences and needs, and share your time as equally as you can. Beyond that, it doesn't matter which one it is in the sequence, who you think they do or don't resemble, etc., It'll all work out. They're lucky to have parents who care and pay attention.

Our kids have a wide range of personalities. All are adults now but back in the earlier years as now, the younger ones might quip from time to time (in a good natured way) that we sometimes treat the first born more favorably. I don't know if that's true or not but also then as now, I'll remind them I try to be fair but I accept that they're a better judge of how well or poorly I do that than I am.

I was just wondering about mentioning Asperger's Syndrome, which is part of the autism spectrum and then saw Lisa mentioned it. I have a grandson who is very much like you described your daughter. It sounds very typical of high functioning Asperger's. Lack of social intervention is one symptom. This does not mean your daughter has it, only a professional can diagnose. They don't call it Asperger's anymore, just autism. Work with her, does she make eye contact with others? If she doesn't, carefully work with her to start making eye contact, small steps will be more effective. She will be OK.

Asynchronous development is a hallmark of gifted children, but it is often that they act their age while their cognition is ahead. You say your daughter acts younger than her age? It could also be a means of compensating for her advancement. But it could, in fact, be a social development issue that a speech therapist might be able to address. Are you other children gifted as well? It often occurs more than once in a sibling set. Does your school have a counselor with training in working gifts children? I rue the day our elementary school eliminated the position of "gifted counselor" and forced the person filling that role into retirement. The other counselors simply didn't have the training to address the particular needs.

As for raising children differently, YES. Our two are 5 years apart and different in their natures. One is a wordsmith, the other is a mathematician who also has great facility with words.

and I'll just put this out there: have you ever been assessed for giftedness as well as for ASD and others? We had our one son assessed in high school. It was fascinating and helpful. And I wish we'd had our other assessed, as well, but there was no "need" (and it's expensive; the school paid for the other's complete assessment by an outside professional.) Now I'm interested in what such an assessment might reveal about me.

I was shy as a child growing up and I always promised myself that if and when I had children I would try to avoid that for them. When my kids, I have two sons who are 20 months apart, were toddlers we would go over to the playground and rather than sitting on a bench by myself I would force myself to introduce myself and start a conversation with the other moms who might be there.

Eventually the older one would run up to other kids at the playground and say "Hi, my name is D and this is my brother S, do you want to play with us?" I have no idea if he was modeling my behaviour or if he would have done this anyway.

Is your daughter old enough to start doing a little volunteer work? Something at the school helping a teacher or being assigned a younger child to read to - something that is done on a regular basis once or twice a week. Something where she would be modeling behaviour from an adult.

Our older son doesn't have the same issues but was a little immature compared to his friends and by the time he was 12 he was referring soccer games for the 5/6 year olds. That sense of responsibility was such a boost for him.

In a sense I feel for your daughter - I am the eldest of 6 and wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I think some people are just wired differently. I was very gifted as a child, all the special classes, etc. but I couldn't make friends and I was also bullied. I still have problems to this day with making and maintaining friendships. I have one good friend still from high school and that's really it.

My brother, while smart, was not gifted, and he's a social butterfly that can walk into any room and leave with a bunch of new best friends.

We are only 18 months apart so I don't think we were raised very differently.

First off, you are a caring mom. Do't be hard on yourself.

Some kids have a difficult time finding their "tribe."

Our middle school and high school is very small in our town. This means fewer kids to make friends with. My two daughters are two years apart.

There was a time when my youngest wasn't socializing in elementary school. We actually sat down and went through the class directory and wrote down the names of girls that she thought she could ask for a playdate. I made sure to be super flexible and available. This worked! From that one friend, it became five more from of that's girl's circle.

I was also a Girl Scout leader for both my girls. This gave an extra built in social life and both DD still have friends from this group of girls.

Your daughter is 11. What more are you expecting from her?

I think you can ask her about friends and what she thinks. An extra curricular with equally bright kids? Special science programs, chess, computer?

I agree, people are wired differently. But just to talk about one aspect of this, I believe some of the inherent personality tendencies that can be obstacles to having social interactions and public comfort as others have can be tempered. And not doing so can adversely affect one's life.

An initial reticence or discomfort with certain situations can become easier to handle successfully with experience and guidance on how to deal with them. An 11 year old may not be ready for coaching to develop better interpersonal skills but a 14 year old may be.

For developing comfort in social situations, speaking to strangers and having a comfortable personal "presence", I think highly of:

For kids - A high school Public Speaking class. If your high school doesn't have it, push them to start.

For adults - commit to joining and regularly attending a Toastmasters club. Yeah, really. It's not the Moose Lodge and all welcome women as well as men. They have a regular curriculum and structure to develop confidence in public and public speaking. It's fun and it works.

Your dd sounds just like my little neighbor across the street. I'm good friends with her mom and she has moved Heaven and Earth to try to help her become social and learn various cues. She too likes to talk on and on about a subject that interests her--usually something "science-y" or something about video games/shows she's interested in; otherwise she doesn't talk much. For some years she really didn't have any friends either and it was so difficult on her mom, who is very friendly. Mom tried her out in various sports (few) and other hobbies. Without going into much detail, it seems she clicks best with kids like herself. So if you can get your dd into after-school groups in something she enjoys, it may help her make a friend. Please know this is not at all uncommon, though families who deal with this do so in silence, so it just seems like your family is different.

As for whether we treat our oldest differently, I whole-heartedly think many of us do; most of us don't know what the heck we're doing with our first kids and feel the pressure to bring them up well. My first dd is much more comfortable around people now most of the time, but is keeping her wedding small for the reason mentioned above. I wish I could write more of my thoughts but can't do so on a public forum. I will say that she has some resentment against us now, but we're all trying to treat each other respectfully. I wish I had known to lighten up and not to worry so much about her, but that's easy to say in hindsight.

The key is to remember not all people are alike or follow the norm, and that it's perfectly OK not to have a bunch of friends, or even one for a while. Your dd will most likely find "her people" at some point, and your angst over it now will be seen by your daughter and stress her out. I hope you can approach her about the subject and see what her thoughts are. Watching a few of my friends become disappointed with the direction their dds were taking that wasn't conventional made me realize I stressed out my dd without even knowing it. I wish I could take that back.

Oh yeah! I'd like to recommend the book, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. It made my dd soooo happy when she read it in her early 20's! (She is in her early 30's now.) Extroverts of the world, it's important to realize there are millions of people that are not wired to ever feel perfectly comfortable around people, and THAT'S OK! They will still lead happy lives.

You remind me of me. I have three daughters fairly close in age all grown up now- 44, 42, 41. I wanted my children to be happy and avoid pitfalls. I did not want them to be hurt by the outside world or be sad; I wanted life to be easy for them. I tried to to protect and lead (push) them, especially the oldest because she is most like me, in a direction that detours around the challenges and weakness I perceived that may have caused me challenges or unhappiness as I was growing up. I became aware of this as the eldest entered adolescence, yup about 11 years old. I think that there must have been times when my attitude came through as judgement and disapproval of who she was. Despite me, she/we progressed through the teen years normally, I eventually realized (most likely later than ideal) while I could encourage her and introduce her to opportunities, I could not change her or steer her course. She wanted to be in charge of her direction, all normal for a teen. It was very hard and sometimes frustrating to be the bystander at times. However, after she had graduated college, I heard her tell her sisters that they should listen to my advice and not challenge it because 1. they would eventually come to the same conclusion and 2. it would save time. I guess that her sisters would agree only 50%. After all, eldest is still like me but better.

Since no one at school has spoken to you about social disorders, there is no reason to label your daughter as having a syndrome. She has a peer group at school and I would begin there and suggest gently getting together with a classmate. Maybe one has similar interests. One mother in my granddaughter's group hosted a mother and daughter get together for a small group. This was around the holidays so the theme was a gift exchange. Maybe host a spring tea and dying eggs or planting bulbs or seeds.

I think advice to consult a speech therapist is a good one. They run social groups; I know because my oldest (they one most like me) is a very successful speech therapist. This girl who was quiet, reserved, cautious and hesitant to join and try new things employs over 50 therapists, consults with educational consultants, lactation specialists, doctors and dentists, reassures mothers whose infants do not eat, leads a national association.

Advice I would have appreciated as I was raising my daughters is accept them as they are; guide them and introduce them to new ideas or ways gently. Don't see the traits that I wish I could have changed in myself as flaws in my daughter. Often something that troubled me, was not a problem for the kid. To grow and develop, one has to struggle a bit. I turned out okay; my girls turned out better than okay.

I know you a bit from your posts over the years. I always enjoy and appreciate your insights about family. I think you are doing okay.

Of course, sjerin. I get it. I have friends and family members who aren't as comfortable as others in groups or with strangers, who need quiet personal time to recharge afterwards, etc., There's no problem with that and I think it's awesome when people can recognize what works for them. But they know when they need to suck it up and act a bit beyond their comfort zones when the situation requires it.

To rationalize the okay-ness of such discomforts to the point that nothing is done to try to develop more comfort and abilities, to deal with it, to remedy the negative effects on interpersonal relationships and how these tendencies can produce career obstacles, isn't such good advice.

Thank you everyone for your insight.

I'm aware that gifted children can develop asynchronously, which is what I think her issue is. Saying she is like a toddler was an exaggeration on my part. Her and her sister, 19 months apart, get mistaken for twins all the time. They are the same size but, more than that I think it is the social behaviors.

Since she doesn't really have friends, most of her socializing is with her sisters, which are all younger and I can't help but wonder if that is exacerbating the issue.

I don't think it's an autism spectrum disorder, though I'm obviously not a professional. None of her teachers have ever mentioned anything like that. She doesn't have a problem making eye contact and she isn't shy. She just doesn't seem to get the give and take of conversation. It's like when her brain gets stuck on a thought, she can't stop talking until she has verbalized all of it, regardless of who is listening.

We have had countless conversations about the difference between talking and conversation.

I had never thought of having her see a speech therapist, would they really be able to help her even though she doesn't have a speech disorder?

Her sisters have all been tested, well not the youngest yet, she will probably be evaluated next year. The others are advanced and bright, but not gifted. My husband and I were both identified as gifted when we were in school so there is definitely a genetic component.

She is involved with a local youth choir and does gymnastics so we do have her in extracurriculars. At choir she gets in trouble for talking when they are supposed to be practicing.

She's just a chatty cathy, and she seems to prefer talking to adults over other kids.

I wish our schools employed a counselor for the gifted kids but they don't. The gifted program is run by the librarian at each campus.

I'm trying to arrange playdates over spring break for all of my kids but she is at an intermediate school now where there is no standing around visiting at pick up and drop off. I've encouraged her to get the contact information for some of the girls she likes and talks about so I can arrange something, but I have no way of getting in touch with their parents.

It's just so frustrating. She gets sad when she sees her sisters being invited to things, I am trying to coach her on approaching others but I can't do it for her.

I will see if there are any speech therapists that run groups dealing with social skills, give and take, etc.

Thanks again!

Is she challenged in the gifted program? I'm just wondering about getting her involved in something that might further challenge her such as chess or robotics club/summer camps,

If you're referring to me, TG, I didn't say speech therapist, I said public speaking class.

Maybe a counselor of some kind would be helpful. A psychologist, family therapist, etc., someone who could talk to her, understand her point of view, give her suggestions.

One of the things I learned with my kids - they start life with a completely blank slate. No tools in the toolbox, no notes in their notebooks. Situations that adults have learned to handle, or insights and approaches most of us have picked up over time, they don't have. Sometimes, and with situations, all they may need is some conversation or a hint or two to get started and they can take it from there. But even if they sense something isn't as they'd like it to be, they may not know what to do about it.

I am a retired middle school teacher. I assume from your daughter's age that she is in 6th grade? Is this her first year in the intermediate school? If so, she and you are undergoing a big transition and adjustment period. In my area, the middle school begins in 6th grade and has many more students than the elementary school. Friendships change as the kids mature at different rates and meet and develop friendships with new kids. The teachers and counsellors are very aware of the adjustment the kids must make and have many strategies for helping kids make a smooth transition. If the school has not already shared this information with you, ask about it. Does your daughter have a team of teachers? Have you had any feedback from your daughter's teachers about how she interacts with her peers at school socially and on school work? Is she alone? Does she have girls to eat with in the cafeteria? Your daughter's counsellor does not have to specialize in gifted children to be an effective counsellor. In my area, the counsellor runs tons of groups to help kids including friendship building and social groups.

Does the PTA publish a student directory? In my area, the parents receive the directory as part of their membership. Parents find it invaluable, and the kids like it too. It includes names of students, parents, home address, parents' phone and email address. Parent volunteers spearhead the publication. It really facilitates social interaction.

She doesn't like to be challenged, which is another problem we deal with. She's a perfectionist, if she can't get it right the first time, she wants to quit, which we don't let her. But no, I don't think the gifted program challenges her much.

That's a big problem too, there isn't much that challenges her, except time management and learning how to socialize!!

Elmer- someone else had mentioned a speech therapist.

I do feel she may need outside intervention though. One of my other daughters goes to a counselor for anxiety and impulse issues. This counselor is great, she specializes in kids like mine, unfortunately she won't see siblings. She may have a colleague she can recommend though.

Happy2b- yes, she is in 6th grade. I'm on the PTA at her school, we didn't do a directory because others felt it was pointless (I wanted one but was overruled)

The problem is, our district has grown so much that grades 5 and 6 are on one campus, grades 7 and 8 on another, grades 9-10 on another and then 11 and 12 at the final campus. So there is a lot of changing schools, new groups, every other year.

I think I'll schedule a meeting with her team of teachers to ask about how she interacts with others.

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/

If you want, this can help you get in touch with pros who really know their stuff when it comes to social matters and very gifted kids. You may need to be able to pay substantial amounts and travel to get the most thorough assessment and help.

Years ago, my son studied with two girls, sisters who were "world class geniuses," not just smart but cloud-high achievers across the board. I remember, for example, the seven year old was always closing her calculus book about the time we arrived to study with them. They (whole family) had gotten assessments and counseling found through Hoagies. They were wonderful kids, really nice to be around.

The therapist was making the correct ethical decision not to see siblings. Referrals would be appropriate and helpful.

I work in mental health and have some insights that may be beneficial. Since I see your DD through your eyes only, I will speak in generalities. The transition to middle school is a stressful time for most kids and it's difficult to separate normal childhood behaviors from pathological ones. Some children are just hard-wired to be more anxious while others are more relaxed and able to take things in stride. Your DD may have perfectionist tendencies that cause distress when she is not able to meet her self-imposed high standards.

When stuff happens, we have a choice to be empowered or victimized. For example, if she dances and falls on stage, she can make the fear-filled choice to never dance again. Or she can choose empowerment, recognize that the event is not part of her, it's outside of her, something that happened, but now it's over. And the show must go on!

Naturally, this is easier said than done. Empowerment is a choice--even though she may not know HOW to get past the fall, she must choose to move on by taking active steps to recover--surrounding herself by supportive people (" That must have been scary and you were so brave to get up and save the show!") , developing an inner strength based on positive self-perception ("I fell, but I got up!") and refusing to let the fall define her (Hey, I went on to win DWTS!) A victim will relinquish all her power to the fall, ruminate, start to feel helpless and may even get reinforcement from pity or concern from others. This can create a dangerous cycle as it provides an unhealthy form of attention.

Hypothetically, even if your DD chooses not to dance again, don't pressure her. Hopefully, she will realize that her fear is keeping her from having fun, being the center of attention or keeping her from something she really wants to do. She will need to come to that realization on her own and this will build her self-esteem.

Be aware of your own choice of reactions—your child is watching your every move. Even if she’s not a direct witness, she’s picking up on your emotional response. Try to model behavior that sends empowering messages and helps her develop a wider emotional vocabulary.

Make your home a "soft spot" for her to land. Continue your discussions, mainly keeping your ears open and mouth closed. Do reflective listening and challenge her negative thinking patterns.

Most importantly, let her know she can always count on you for love and support.

Yes, speech therapists can help with social speech. There are caveats. My DS3 had articulation issues and was a bit quirky. His speech therapist was awesome at helping him understand how he worked (highly gifted boy whose mind was always three steps ahead, so the words coming out of his mouth did not mesh well with where the conversation was going.) I was so happy with the one on one coaching he got from the therapist, I signed him up for group social speech during the summer. Big mistake. All the children in that group were on the spectrum and since mine was not he was used as an example of what to do for the others. He learned nothing and became a bit of a brat because he was allowed to do whatever he wanted in that class. So he hated the class and got some bad habits we had to break. I would ask specifically for a speech therapist who gets gifted kiddos and get a few coaching sessions with her.

As for perfectionism, that is a bigger priority, imho. That can hold you back forever. Remember the whole Carol Dweck growth mind set thing. Maybe you should watch a TED talk or even read that book together. Reward your daughter for failing. Highlight all the ways you fail and try again. Gifted children know what they expect of themselves and it is far too much sometimes, so that disconnect is hard to navigate. Hoagie’s is awesome. See if there are any gifted groups in your area. Lots of gifted children homeschool, so they are plugged into lots of cool activities.

Computer programming courses, playing a musical instrument but nothing as ordinary as a piano.

These suggestions come from my sister who has a very gifted 12 year old who is a little socially challenged as well. This isn't quite the same situation as yours though. My sister had this guy very late in life and his two siblings are 13 and 15 years older than he is. He was basically raised with 4 parents and became somewhat precocious with the continuous adult attention. Anyway turned out the little guy is very gifted and these suggestions of looking for challenges outside of school that aren't tied into assignments and grading and success/failure come from her.

He plays the Cello., and loves his robotics courses.

Elmer, it doesn't seem that she expressly needs a public speaking class (but it could be worthwhile on other grounds). Public speaking doesn't really teach the ability to hold give-and-take conversations with others, especially peers. Which seems to be where the specific concern lies.

It's been decades since I took public speaking in school but I seem to remember a focus on delivering time-limited, succinct speeches.

I know some adults that had a bad case of "run-on mouth" and learned how to interrupt them. None of them have resented it, one even told me that it was fine to just walk away from her while she was talking!

A good public speaking class covers essentials of communication and other similar peripheral topics, along with what you'd expect of basic techniques for successfully giving different types of presentations. I'm not suggesting this as the only way for TG's daughter or any other to improve comfort and confidence but rather just as something everyone, young and old, can benefit from in regular social settings too.

The high school my kids went to had an excellent public speaking course that all took with my prodding. None of them had any particular social relationship difficulties or challenges but all emerged from the program with significantly more self confidence with interpersonal communications and better listening skills. One even had a well paying, college sponsored part-time job during undergrad years as a public speaking coach for foreign born grad students. A job they needed to "audition" for. I thought that was great and spoke to the quality of the HS class.

I doubt that this is a truly "gifted" program - just probably the way the school district "tracks" children. We have the same thing her locally. As she gets older, she may find other truly gifted students and will be better able to communicate with them. Believe me, they have VERY lengthy, incredibly nerdy conversations quite often! I've seen this with DGS1.

I only have two children and each always thought I favored the other. I figured that meant I was probably treating them pretty equally. Ha!

I agree both of my children thought they were the least favorite. Totally untrue.

I could not be hard on my eldest with his disability issues. We are hoping that round 1 million of medications will at least control the migraines a little better and then maybe I can be hard enough on him to push him to have life outside of home and so on. I'm hoping that science has caught up with his illness.

My daughter was always hardest on herself. She as always being a very self-disciplined person whom I had to keep reminding that there was fun in life. She now intersperses her hard work ethic with hard travel and enjoyment. I think my work is done there. :-).