Are you sure about that, KKNY? In the past, you have seemed absolutely giddy when spouting statistics about the percentage of second marriages that fail. Does your sympathy extend to those women?

And why is it SMs are allowed to pass judgement on moms who dont work, etc, but not vice versa?

Oh, I understand, becuase SMs got the man, so they are the better person/

Giddy, No.

But when SMs spout off about how much better they are than wifey #1, I do remind them that what comes around, goes around. And when someone moves in with a guy whose wife is 10 years younger, with no remourse, like a recent post, that is more true than ever.

Sorry, meant 10 years older.

Where did you ever get that idea from? Obviously it only matters to a SM when BM isn't working because SM is working to help pay support for the non working BM. You aren't giving support to your Ex are you?

And what is the world has it got to do with who got the man?

I think you should also write a book about avoiding the topic at hand and evading simple questions. You could sell them in a boxed set - double your profits.

Your refusal to address that there is a difference between death and divorce (not that one is better or worse, just that they are different), or acknowledge that going to work while your husband left you doesn't make you a better person than someone who takes the death of their spouse very hard and loses 30 pounds, or say that you were not trying to diminish DF's experience, just reinforces that you have no respect for anyone else's experiences or opinions.
How can you expect anyone to ever listen to you or give any credit to your experiences or opinions when you won't do that for them?
Oh, and you never answered my question about if you think you deserve a cookie.

Hey now!
~I~ said I perceive that you think you're better than other people! Not Colleen.
Don't go blaming (or crediting) other people for what ~I~ say! That's just like how I don't think TOS should have gotten a raw deal on this thread for you being a jerk on the "is this all my fault" thread.

"Obviously it only matters to a SM when BM isn't working because SM is working to help pay support for the non working BM. You aren't giving support to your Ex are you? "

I thought that judges dont take into account SMs income in support -- so it comes down to household income. So are you saying that SM wants more of household income?? And why household income matters to mom is things like college tuition, etc. Which is just as important.

And I see a lot of disrespect for moms by SMs when mom doesnt work, but I guess the opposite is different.

I think death and divorce are different, but both are painful. My dad died when I was young, and I watched my mom go through a tough time, so yes I do care.

I will pass on your cookie.

What precisely did I say that offended you ?

"And why is it SMs are allowed to pass judgement on moms who dont work, etc, but not vice versa?"

I think that seems to be the case because some of the moms who don't work (at least in our limited sample on this board) are collecting CS that should be supporting the child, but instead are using it to support themselves while pawning the child off on others to care for.
If CS was going to the dad and it was going to support an unemployed SM while the child was shuffled around and didn't see the money meant for their care, I'd have a big problem with that too.

What did I say on Is it all my fault that bothered you.

But aren't you already getting all those things? Not all of us make as much money as your Ex apparently does. And just for the record I don't think it is anyone's business who does or doesn't work. Everyone has their reasons.

But a little sensitivity from time to time is in order. Still that old cause and effect thing for you.

ceph. Take a breath.

ima started this thread and specifically asked kkny and tos what they are getting from being here. kkny answered that she has learned some things and specifically included the "No involvement with anyone until two years after divorce or death of spouse." You are actually the one to tell her she's wrong because of your dad's story, dirty followed with her mom's story. All kkny did was state that since her situation is different, she does not feel that your examples should cause her to change her opinion. She's not the one who injected her life into your situation this time; you're the one who injected your life into her situation, and then got offended when she pointed out that it doesn't fit.

And, I agree with her on the general point. While I'm glad for your dad and dirty's mom, first of all, in my opinion it is almost always an absolutely horrible idea for someone to date and/or marry because they can't take care of themselves (practically, emotionally, financially, I don't care how). When you *need* someone that badly, you pretty much have to accept anyone that'll have you, and it's rare that a situation like that will work out well. Second of all, while if taken literally the two year rule may be somewhat rigid, the idea behind it-- wait long enough that everyone involved (both spouses and any children) have time to accept and adjust to the end of the marriage-- is sensible.

Colleen, I hear that you dont think it is anyone's business who does and doesnt work. A lot of SMs here do.

A little sensitivey ? I hear a lot of SMs who think every mom is a ueseless piece of XXX. Why dont you ask for sensitity from EVERYONE.

Ceph,

I still want to hear what I said which was offensive to you.

KK, your first reply was fairly helpful. I was actually pretty impressed that you seemed to be addressing the issue at hand, not attacking her for seeing her husband while he was still married.

Then it went downhill...
In the last paragraph of your second post you seem to say that because she made mistakes in the past, she has no right to expect decent treatment.

In the next one you, without any real background about her 16yo, said you feel bad for him, even though Ima simply said the situation has probably had a greater effect on him than the grown children.

In the next one you told the poster she has no integrity and can never be trusted because she had an affair. She may have made some bad choices, but that's a helluva thing to say. Past mistakes don't necessarily dictate who we are today.

In the next one you put words in the poster's mouth that as far as can see, she never said. I could be wrong on that, but the post as a whole was rude and abrupt whether you put words in her mouth or not.

In the next one you threw her past mistakes in her face and said you don't think she wants to earn trust back. Since it's been a couple years since it happened, and they got married in the meantime, I think that's quite a stretch (not to mention, a very mean thing to say).

Your last post wasn't particularly rude on its own. It was just a little icing on the big jerk cake.

You aren't the only one who was rude on that thread. Other people were too. That poster wanted help to try to deal with an invasion of privacy and her adult stepchildren being very destructive to her relationship. Her past transgressions do play a role in these troubles she wanted help with, but we have no right to attack her for them.

I can understand why you have such problems with TOW or TOM. We all have a right to have our glasses coloured by our past experiences, but please try to be nicer about it!

You're quite right that I disagreed with the rule KK proposed... but I just wanted to point out that there are exceptions where it's better for the kids to not wait two years. I didn't mean to say that HER choice to wait at least two years is wrong, simply that those rules can't apply to everyone all the time. It may have come out that way though - oops.
What upsets me about KK is that I know it's OK for my situation not to fit her situation, but perceive that she doesn't know that it's OK for her situation not to fit other people's situations. My read of almost everything she has to say is that her way is right and everyone else's way is wrong. Maybe she doesn't mean it that way, but that's how it comes out.

Your point that dating because you *need* someone being a bad idea is an excellent point. I think it probably would have been overall better for my dad's emotional health to try to work through it on his own, maybe talk to a grief counselor or a close friend, and so on. But, to be honest, my dad isn't that guy. He started dating my mom when he was 17 and she was 15. They got married at 18 and 20. He had never been on his own and didn't know how to be, and that's OK by me. My dad isn't equipped take care of his own emotions, and at 16 I wasn't equipped to take care of them either, so I can't say his choice was a bad one.

Ceph,

I think you chose to read into my posts more than was there, as indicated by the language in your own posts ("you seem to say", etc).

My advice was not to push the email issues, not because I didnt think it was wrong, which I did state, but more importantly because I thought it would not be productive. Her DHÂs atittude (and his opinion is the one that matters most) of being cool speaks volumes. Her complaining re the emails is likely going to be viewed as defensive, etc. You may view untempered enthusiasm for someone as the most helpful; I see OP digging herself in a hole. And creating more problems. Difference of opinion. Maybe because I am older, I tend to recommend picking battles.

I did not throw her mistakes in her face; her stepchildren did. That is the problem here.

The reason I donÂt see her wanting to earn trust back is that she is making a bigger issue of emails than of adultery. If she wants to earn trust back, she must let the emails go.

I did not say the OP had no integrity, I repeated a statement I said to my X, in the context of sharing my own experiences. I think if OP were willing to look at the situation from the viewpoint of others, she might gain perspective. Obviously, you feel differently.

I think you are much pickier re my language than of the attacks by SMs here  why is that?

oh, I'm not criticizing your dad and stepmom if it worked for them and they're happy, then great for them. But it's not necessarily a solution that can be applied to anyone else. It depends pretty much on blind luck, and you can't expect blind luck to be on your side when you need it. You couldn't really give a new widower advice that to deal with his grief, he just needs to get out there and find his new wife. It won't work for 99% of the people. (ok, maybe 95%)

I'm process engineer and I deal with safety a lot. I tell people that I'm a big fan of blind luck when it keeps someone from being hurt or killed but it doesn't really make for a robust safety program. Same thing here; I'm a big fan of fortuitously stumbling on your ideal SO at just the right time, when it happens, but you can't plan your life (or advise someone else on theirs) assuming that it will.

"I think you are much pickier re my language than of the attacks by SMs here why is that?"

I think you're probably right. I'm more critical of what you have to say and the words you choose to say it. I think that's probably because most of what you contribute around here is criticism. The majority of the other posters (not all) mostly contribute help or thoughtful suggestions and ask for help from others (with occasional criticisms or attacks)
We all say some rude things or criticize someone from time to time, but most people I see on this board appear to be looking to grow and help others grow. To be frank, I don't get that impression from you. So, as a result, I cut posters who I perceive as looking to grow more slack than I cut you.

Saying "I perceive..." or "It seems to me that..." or "I feel that..." is a way of fighting fair. It allows the other person the chance to stand up for themselves and say "No no, that's not the case - ____ is what I really meant"
When I say "I perceive that" or "you seem to say", I'm only telling you what I think. I'm not saying that the impression I got was the right one or the wrong one, just that it's my impression. If it's the wrong one, please, speak up and say "That's not what I intended and I didn't mean for it to come out that way". I can't read your mind, any more than you or anyone else can read mine.
Sometimes I get frustrated enough that I don't "fight fair" and get sarcastic (like earlier in this thread). That was quite rude of me and I'm sorry that I snipped at you, but I really do feel that you think your opinion and experiences are the only valid ones. And that's why I'm harder on you than on others.

KKNY I just found your last post deeply offensive.

"The reason I dont see her wanting to earn trust back is that she is making a bigger issue of emails than of adultery. If she wants to earn trust back, she must let the emails go."

Are you trying to say now they ever trusted her? You can't earn back what you never had, and letting the emails go and addressing the adultery isn't going to change a single thing. So what are you talking about? Why don't you just say what you really mean. Why don't we just brand her forehead with a big letter A and shun her for life. OH wait a minute then we would have to do that to your EX too.

I dont think my opinions are the only valid ones, and I listen and value a lot of what I hear here. I do think it onesided.

I thought previously you may have had some redeeming qualities, but now KKNY all I see you as is a mean jealous old lady.

kkny, you say you are speaking for the "older" set and does that mean you have more knowledge of financial planning for spousal health care? It may come as a surprise to you, but the laws are the same for first and second marriages (or third or fourth). Yes, the spouse pays for health care.[some divorce when their spouse becomes injured/ill, my dad is my step mom's third or fourth husband. There's no question in my mind that any of her prior husbands would have left her, just like her "loving" children did] And the reason most seniors choose not to get married is because they could lose benefits/Medicare. It's kinda like the same reason ex wives don't get remarried because they will lose their alimony. (so they have a live in BF so they get the benefit of ex hubby's money and the new BF shares expenses~ win/win)

and if your child objected to you having a relationship, you can choose to "put your child first" but really, that isn't what happens. If you had the chance to be with someone that loved you, wanted to share your life and take care of you when you are old, and you cut that off because your DD says she doesn't like the idea, then she goes off and gets married, moves away and has her own life, what happens when you are older and can't take care of yourself? You may have blood relatives and they may or may not be around or willing to help you. Are you going to go live with your DD & her family? She may love you and love the idea, but her DH may not and it would be a burden that I sure wouldn't want to put on my kids. I guess that's up to you.

and regarding SM's that criticize BM's for not working or vice versa. The only time it matters is when it affects you. In my case, my SD lives with us and I am paying for things that her mom should be paying, but her mom doesn't work and doesn't pay any child support. In the case of my son & daughter, I should be getting support from their fathers but I don't. I don't care if their wives work because the wives are not supposed to be supporting my child. and if I were sitting around doing nothing and collecting a larger support amount (because I didn't work) then they might have a reason to complain about me. If my children lived with their father and I am paying support, I still don't have a right to complain if their father's wife doesn't work, I only have a right to complain if their father doesn't work. It really depends on the situation, but in your case, your ex's GF isn't married to him and it doesn't affect you one way or the other. He pay you whatever he has to based on his income. If he uses the rest of his income to support a GF and a bunch of kids that aren't his, that HIS business. It only becomes your business if he stops paying you what he supposed to.

and as for "wait time" for new relationships/marriage, everybody is different. It depends on the person, the situation they are in and how they deal with it. The right reason to marry someone is up to the person making that decision. It's more important that both people want the same or similar thing. (ie. some guys know they are marrying a "gold digger" and they don't mind because they want a "trophy wife" and maybe that can work if they both know what they are getting into.)

Cant we all just get along?

I think, in my opinion (just an opinion for clarity), that it takes all the posters, both good, bad, and indifferent, to make this interesting and worth while place to share. Even if it is for a laugh at the blatant narcissism, or fluff puffery that is often typed for our reading pleasure...it would not be the same without the delicate blending of people and their opinions that make it so groovy.

Don't be angry...just take what you want, and leave what you don't and enjoy the ride. Thicken the skins of our retinas to be able to handle whatever we see next.*

*this post does not impose any opinion expressed or implied.

I don't like it either when my cat catches a baby bird and toys with it claws out until she kills it. Don't lead people to believe there is any hope for being redeemed when there is none. That is just CRUEL. You want to play deathball? Let's go then.

Come out wherever you are KKNY. Apparently the fact that my husband's EX was homosexual and left him and he subsequently divorced her over that didn't get any kind of rise out of you. All you had to say was I support Gay and Lesbian rights. So what about that there KKNY. Didn't fit your theory of vixens stealing away older men?

You my dear KKNY are the person who is biased in her analysis of situations. You my dear KKNY are the one who goes after new marriages and even in cases such as mine where the EX "apparently" turned out to be gay ( as if ) and SHE in fact destroyed the marriage. What is your problem?

Just because you are too AFRAID to move along and have a life doesn't mean everyone is. Whatever. I am sick to death of hearing how your EX left you for a woman ten years younger. Doesn't mean a thing to me.

So what? So bloody what actually. AND now you are sitting there with your sanctimonious attiude that ALL second marriages are based on the some undefined sin. Well they AREN'T.

You are building yourself up a huge bank account of BAD KARMA there KKNY. And of course it wont be you who pays it. It might be a grandchild. THINK about that you selfish woman. Your unwillingness to forgive and move on is costing ALL of your family. So, stop fooling yourself.

Coleen,

Not that I support KKNY, but she did say that --

I dont support affairs whether heterosexual or homosexual, before going on to say she supported gay/lesbian rights.

I think there is an awful lot of anger/judgement going on here by a lot of people.

Are you OK Colleen?
You sound a little riled up there...

All KK said on that other post was that the SKids didn't trust the StepMom for valid reasons, and that focusing on the email and ignoring the underlying reasons for it was unwise.

And I agree with that --
(Do I need to look behind me?)

Ceph wrote:
"In the next one you told the poster she has no integrity and can never be trusted because she had an affair. She may have made some bad choices, but that's a helluva thing to say. Past mistakes don't necessarily dictate who we are today. "

While I'd agree that past mistakes don't necessarily dictate who we are today, I'd caution that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior -- so we'd be wise to pay attention to it. If someone has clearly learned from his/her past mistakes and made real changes based on the lessons learned -- then that's when they become deserving of our trust again. Trust, once lost, needs to be earned back.

"Trust, once lost, needs to be earned back."

That is my point. Did she ever have their trust? You tell me.

You sound an awful lot like Dr. Phil.

Did she ever have whose trust? Her husband's children? Did they even know her before the affair? If not, when would they have even had the opportunity to trust her?

The voice of reason finally. Of course they didn't.

--"Trust, once lost, needs to be earned back."

That is my point. Did she ever have their trust? You tell me. --

You are playing with semantics to no point.

No, she never had their trust. However, she did actively, by her own behavior, lose their trust, or lose the possibility of their trust, or lose the presumption or benefit of the doubt that one would normally extend to a stranger that they may be trustworthy. However you want to describe it. If she now wants their trust, she must earn it (is it better if I don't say earn it back?). And if she wants her relationship with them to improve, she should perhaps recognize that the children might be spying on her because they do not trust her, that she has given them ample reason to not trust her, and that understanding why they don't trust her and actively trying to earn their trust would be more constructive than blaming them for going inappropriately overboard in their behavior in response to their distrust of her (and probably distrusting their father's judgment in respect to her). I thought kkny and sweeby were both making pretty thoughtful responses regarding what the stepkids are probably thinking. And I'm the one who was arguing (discussing) with kkny some time ago on a different post that stepmoms who were the other woman actually can earn forgiveness from the stepkids. The point is earn it. You don't just get to say "oopsiee, committed adultery, broke up your family, my bad. ok, forgive me now and lets start over." Doesn't quite work that way.

Keep in mind that OP is not only TOW, but she also cheated on their dad. It is another reason to not trust her. They might think she will have another affair and leave their dad one day for someone else. I am not trying to judge her at all, but making a point that she needs to work hard to earn their trust.

This thread wasn't about kkny's response to OP in the other thread (I actually think she offered some good points), but I was responding to one line from that thread where she stated:

"What I find perplexing about this site is all the SMs who talk about children not taking responsiblity, but apparently it is OK for SMs to not take responsiblity"

and I found that to be a judgmental statement from someone that hasn't accepted responsibility for her own situation. (and I added tos because I believe tos does not accept any responsibility for her situation and those of us that do, get it thrown back in our face for past mistakes or criticized for the faults we have admitted to). Or instead of offering valid advice or opinions, they attack someone else's advice or opinion. (or launch personal attacks) and I know it's not only them, but they are the ones that I really see that have not opened up and shared their problems, faults or mistakes with anyone here. Correct me if I'm wrong because I know they have been here longer than I have and maybe I missed something. I can admit if I'm wrong and if I am, then I apologize.

I asked a couple of questions and while kkny has answered part, she still hasn't said if she wants to help others. It's just my opinion, but she seems to believe 2nd marriages are all doomed and nobody should bother, but in some cases, it's ok to get married again, but not others. It's not really consistent and I don't get her stand on it.

I wasn't "blasting" tos for anything to do with the other thread, it was more that I was asking her the same questions about what she hopes to accomplish here and if she gets anything out of it.

The bottom line, do they genuinely want to help or just pass out their misery to others?

Ima - Are you saying that KKNY and TOS need to "accept responsibility for having been left"? That had they been "better wives" their husbands wouldn't have left?

That's sort of what it sounds like, so I'll ask you to clarify -

I hope it is not what iammommy meant because it is a pretty rotten thing to say. Hopefully she meant something else. And I think that woman who was left by numerous men who also left their children, would not say that about other women.

I understand when people leave spouses because they are no good (just a hypothetical situation) but we are talking not about simply ending bad marriages, we are talking about affairs and cheating. My X just left his 2nd wife for TOW, and he also had a live-in GF in between. So all these marriages and relationships ended because women had to be better wives for him? There is no justification for affairs. And it is nothing to do with a person who was cheated on. Those who cheat don't stop, they will cheat on their new partners at some point.

No, they were left and that isn't their fault. It takes two to stay married. But it rarely is one sided. I hear TOW get blamed (especially by tos) when it's the husband that broke his vow to her. I don't think they are to blame for that, but admitting that there were other problems besides getting too old or not being young enough, etc. I don't think many marriages are simply wonderful and happy until one day they wake up and one decides to have an affair.

Everybody has faults and does things wrong (unless you are perfect) and when they come to a forum where people they seem to despise (second wives/GF's) come to get help and insight into their problems, they speak as if they have never made a mistake in their life and many times blame us just because we are the step parent. The first thing kkny ever said to me was "are you exH's GF?" because I didn't agree with her. We don't have to agree but there's no reason to personally attack people. That's why I asked if they really want to help. I have noticed a difference in KKNY's posts and they aren't as negative as they used to be.

It really isn't fair that they read from us admitting our problems and shortcomings and then use it against us to make their point when they want to blame someone or just discredit someone because they don't like the opinion they have. If you complain about your child or step child, it's a given that one of tos's children did that and it's the (step)parent's fault or the step parent is being mean or picking on the kid. and if you are frustrated with your step kids and vent, then you must hate them and wish the first family never existed.

I guess just once, it would be nice to hear them answer someone's call for help with "I had the same problem with my dd and this is what I did". I guess I'm looking for the human element (to error is human) from them to prove they are not just here to hand out negativity and judge. I've asked them both repeatedly what they get from it and kkny has given a vague answer that she values some of the things she hears, and her honesty that she feels it's one sided is appreciated. But her opinion would be valued more if she shared some of her experiences that brought her to form those opinions. I guess that's what I meant. (and to realize that the people here are from many different backgrounds and socioeconomic status, not just hers)

I agree it has nothing to do with the person cheated on and I don't think it's their fault. But in both of their cases, he cheated after 20-25 years of marriage. Was he always a cheater by your theory? TOS blames it on depression and there may be a point to that, but could there be other factors? Like having a lot of kids, feeling financial pressure, etc. that led to the depression? It's not that I would like them to admit they are to blame, but that perhaps their lives are not so perfect and they have made mistakes or have problems.

A lot of the things that are said, sometimes come across as if they are above it all and looking down on everyone else. I just think it's wrong. Having money, being a professional or being married for twenty years, does not make you better in and of itself. Of course, if you are a professional in family law or a therapist, sociologist or in something relating to the subject being discussed, then sure, it might matter then.

Ima,

At the risk of encouraging you with this almost comical thread, you started the thread with the title

" Judgmental BS (kkny & tos)"

and then start off with "KKNY, in response to your post on "Is it all my fault?" (Trust) it is draining to come to a forum to get advice and instead get your judgmental BS. (and theotherside) "

I gave you my answer, that I see the childrens feelings from a different viewpoint. I think that can be beneficial.

Ima, all I see is you feel free to express your opinions constantly, but get annoyed when others have different opinions. Too bad, that is a blog. I dont think my profession, which is not in the social services field, makes me any less deserving of being allowed to write comments than yours as a process server.

In response to what I have done wrong, I am not certain what to say, no I never had an affair with a married man nor had successive children out of wedlock. I did let my auto registration expire and have to get it taken care of next week. For a while, when I married, I missed going to the dentist every 6 months, but am now back on track. My DD is a B student, but is working harder to get As, at a difficult high school. This is my life. I have never used drugs, smoked or abused alcohol. I would like to lose some weight.

I dont believe all second marriages are doomed. Statistically some will survive. What does annoy me is when wife #2 assumes that failure of first marriage was all wife #1s fault, based principally on what DH says.
Colleen,

Just what do you think I am doing to build up bad KARMA.? I encourage DD to see her father on the infrequent occasions he is available. What would you like me to do? And how do you think this KARMA would effect a future grandchild?

I have to agree that if one person can express her opinion on absolutelly everything, others should be able too. As about professional experience. I was told not to talk about raising children since I only have one, not three or four and my only one is not troubled. If now we are permitted to express our opinions because of our professions, I am sure qualified to talk about children, especially difficult ones.

As about people cheating when marriage is bad, it is true but there is another option: leave. So maybe women who were left for TOW were not perfect, but their husbands could leave and yet they chose to cheat first.

One poster justified her cheating on her 1st husband because he was no good. OK, I can see how horrible husband would drive her into affairs. But then she cheated on her 2nd husband, who is apparently a nice man. I don't think that cheating happens because something is wrong with your partner. "Leaving" happens because your marriage does nto work, but cheating happens for other reasons. Maybe I would cheat if my DH would be horrible, but then it would still be my choice to leave instead of cheating.

kkny,

This thread was starting (and I referred to the other thread because that was where you wrote the line I thought was judgmental on your part) but I wasn't clear in my original post. I have quoted the line that I meant from that thread and I thought it is ridiculous that you are basically saying that SM's have a double standard regarding responsibility when you apparently have never made a mistake, except letting your registration expire. Maybe you are more perfect than I thought, so I apologize for thinking you might have ever done anything wrong or that your DD was a normal teenager with problems that normal teenagers have, I guess I am wrong there too. It must be nice to have a teenage girl that doesn't get moody, talk back occasionally, or do anything wrong, except get B's. Now, I envy you a little.

We all have a right to express our opinions and disagree. It is more about the personal attacks against moral character. and I don't think your profession (or socioeconomic status), regardless of what it is, has anything to do with deserving to express your opinion, but perhaps it has been the way you write "I'm a professional" that makes it sound like you are saying you are better than the next person that isn't a "professional", when your being a professional has nothing to do with your opinions on step families. Some of the sleaziest criminals were "professionals" but that didn't make them better than the honest guy picking up garbage for a living. My careers have had some direct influence on my opinions because it's what I have experienced that caused me to have the opinions I have. And it's also my life experiences that I have learned from that formed my opinions, so that is why I have shared them. I made mistakes many years ago and I'm not the same person, I have learned and grown from it. I've been very open and honest about my life. I don't see that you are as open and honest, yet you lump SM's into a group and judge.

finedreams,

I don't think you were told not to talk about children, but if you only have one (that is problem free) and you use her as an example, then you should realize also that all kids are different. If you work with kids or have other experiences, then use that as an example.

and I agree with you on cheating, it is never right.

Is it really necessary to personally attack each other?

You already know that my life is not perfect, that I am living just above the poverty level, that some of my kids have learning disabilities (and not all A's and B's), and, in your opinion, my exH is a jerk. I have made lots of mistakes, including going out on even a second date with my exH, not to mention quiting my job and moving when he wanted to a couple of decades later - and my exH regrets quitting and moving as well. However, I didn't realize that these were mistakes at the time, or for many years afterwards. I have never cheated on anyone. I am not sure how it is relevant whether or not financial issues affected my exH's depression, but if so, I suspect the impact paled in comparison to the impact of the murder of our young relative. I don't understand how you can claim that I ever said my life was perfect.

My teenage kids have all been occasionally, or frequently, argumentative, unenthusiastic about doing their chores, etc., but fortunately drinking and drugs were never a problem. I don't drink, smoke or use drugs either, nor does my exH, or even his current wife, as far as I know. Both my exH and she ARE at fault for committing adultery.

I have quite a bit of experience with children, and may have more children than just about anyone else here. Imomommy is right that all children are different, but that doesn't stop her from making generalizations.

I am new to this thread, but some of you make very valid points.

I hate to tell you this, but you can blame everything on the other woman, but quite often, she is just someone who picks up the pieces. Often she is just the one who an
unhappy man turns to when he finally decides that his marriage is over.

Listen, if a man is willing to leave his wife for another woman, then she is meeting a need that is not being met.

You can be in denial all you want, but if a man just wanted a play-thing, he would just play around and not leave his wife.

You should have taken care of business on the front end.

People do not have affairs because something is missing in their marriage. People have affairs because something is missing in themselves.

Integrity. Self-respect. A strong sense of self.

What they do often have is self-loathing, and feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy.

I don't know if it is correct and generalize and say ALL people don't have affairs because something is missing in their marriage, no matter how much reading or research has been done. Each case is different and deserves to be considered on its own merits (or lack thereof, as the case may be.)

However, I agree that all three things you mentioned have to be missing from someone who would have an affair.

We will have to agree to disagree on whether infedility can wreck a marriage, but in any event, I beleive that if someone is unhappy in a marriage, and believes not salvageable, then they should discuss with spouse and reach a termination while treating the other party with respect.

Having an affair isnt the way to go.

And having an affair is likely to result in issues with the children and make a settlement more difficult.

I agree with you 100%, KKNY.

When you have an affair with a married person, of course the children of that person are not going to trust you , and they probably arent going to like you very much. In their eyes, you stole their family. CHildren, for the most part, are not able to see the underlying faults of the marriage that may have led to the affair in the first place.

The part that is making me laugh here is the assumption that those kids should jsut get over it and learn to have a relationship with that person.

When you break someones trust, you have no right to demand that you be forgiven. Its bordering on idiocy to expect that the people you hurt just pretend it never happened, because you want to be friends with them.

Many men who cheat, when caught, say the same thing. Things like......Yah, honey, I cheated on you with the babysitter, but Im sooooo sorry, just get over it. How dare you check up on where I am and what I am doing?

In fact, that is one of the more common problems when people try to rebuild a marriage after an affair. The person who cheated demands forgive and forget, but the other person just cant do that.

Its very arrogant, in my opinion, to expect other people, especially children who were betrayed, to forgive and forget according to your timetable,