just a comment I had 'saved': KitchenLab | Rebekah Zaveloff Interiors: "Typically glass cabinets like this would be supplied by the cabinet manufacturer who supplied the rest of the cabinets. However, I know that you can get just the glass doors through Hafele."

[https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-unit-a-modern-kitchen-wellington-phvw-vp~36675[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-unit-a-modern-kitchen-wellington-phvw-vp~36675)

Inspired LED: "I wouldn't recommend rope lighting unless you have a way to secure it, as we've had many customers complain about other companies' rope lighting being inconsistent and not distributed properly. I would recommend LED strips that have adhesive back that allows you to attach the lights to the trim (such as the products we have). They are light weight and our high quality LEDs will end up lasting much longer than most rope lights."

Timberlake isn’t a suitable cabinet line for an upper end kitchen with paneled in appliances. It’s an entry level builder grade. Your budget is already too low for your want list.

Hi Jen - If it were my house, I’d feel okay doing the glass cabinets & drawer dividers. I wouldn’t take on the fridge personally bc it’s too spendy if I get it wrong. You guys should watch YouTube videos on how to do some of the things you want to do, see if you have the tools and if not, how much they are and then see if you feel comfortable taking the projects on. Also you could have the kitchen installed and then do the upgrades later when you feel you can afford it. Maybe hiring a handyman to do the things you cannot? I do as much research as possible when buying new things, mostly because I’m doing an eco-friendly remodel. Why don’t you do some research on Timberlake cabinets, read some reviews and find out what the warranty is and what is covered before committing to them. Good luck to you guys, your home sounds like it will be lovely.

Is this a tract home build or a custom build?

An integrated panel ready fridge starts at $4500 before the cost of the panel. Make sure you are not overbuilding for your neighborhood

Have you compared the cost of a "standard" depth refrigerator with that of a counter depth, paneled refrigerator. Prepare for a significant surprise...

Not all cabinet doors are capable of having glass installed in the door panels, especially builder grade without having been upgraded up front.

I think its okay to buy a home in the budget you have and want it to look as beautiful and high end as possible. I just dumped $40k into upgrading my condo and gained $95k in equity immediately. if she upgraded her home, she gets to live in a home she loves and when she retires, will most likely gain from her investment. Not sure where you live but a $130k kitchen remodel is ridiculous for the average home and I highly doubt that is correct.

A built in paneled fridge isn't in an "average" home is the whole point. Neither are acres of cabinets and moldings to the ceiling with glass. Or zillions of upgraded cabinets with drawers and organizers. None of those things are "average" home choices. They are above average choices. Above average. With above average costs. They also need the whole entire upper end home that surrounds those upper end choices.

You never get 100% back from remodeling, or "upgrading" in a build. That is TV nonsense. If you gained instant equity, then you bought the condo at an undervalued price to start with. You don't buy a 300K condo in a building of 300K condos and ever get the value above 310K, no matter how much you spend. If you gained 95K in equity, you bought it 100K below market as a distressed sale. Your neighbor's comps determine your values. Not the amount you spend doing anything..

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2019/

I just finished a remodel and have a somewhat different take on some of the posts.

If you have drawers or lower cabinets, it is relatively easy to install roll outs in the lower cabinets and there are plenty of dividers and organizers for drawers. I did not have my cabinet maker install organization in the lower cabinets with the following exceptions: a built in knife block in a drawer; a drawer for my silver which has tarnish resistant lining and a roll out for the trash bin below the sink.

I had discussed other organization options with my designer and we both agreed that it was far better to wait until I actually lived in the kitchen to see what kind of organizational things I needed. I have just almost finished moving stuff back into the kitchen and we will be paying a visit to The Container Store :-) to get after market pegs of some kind for those drawers which hold my plates.

In terms of glass, it really depends on what you mean. The interior of my glass fronted cabinets is the same teal blue as my solid door cabinets. However, they have glass shelves as well as interior lights because my intent is to use them as showcases rather than for real storage. What is true is that depending on the door style, you can have a glass installer swap out the wood for the glass. I had this done with my interior doors because it was significantly cheaper to buy the solid wood.

In terms of paneled appliances, you can have paneled appliances that aren't integrated. My Bosch dishwasher and Kitchenaid counter depth refrigerator are paneled. They were the same price as the equivalent appliance with stainless steel door. Since the doors were made by my cabinet maker, there was the fairly minimal cost for the actual panels. I don't think you would be able to do this if you are using semi-custom cabinets although you could check with the cabinet manufacturer and find out what the cost of the panels would be and compare to what it would cost you to go through the builder. Integrated refrigerators are a completely different breed and the least expensive option would be twice as much as my KA refrigerator. I think I paid about $3200 for my KA counter depth refrigerator which is far less expensive than the least expensive integrated refrigerator choice. Although my refrigerator isn't integrated, I think it looks pretty good - my cabinet maker fabricated wood panels so the sides that protrude are the same wood as the rest of the cabinets and I built out the depth of my counters as much as possible so that the refrigerator is "more" counter depth.

live_wire you are wrong. my neighbors bought their condo for around $400k, over 3 years they did a ton of remodeling themselves and sold for $770k less than 3 years later. They spent less than $70k in upgrades esp bc they did it themselves. Here is the Zillow price history - not estimate - actual priced for paid/sold. Listed for $700k and it sold for $70k over asking price - the actual price they paid for the upgrades. They had a bidding war and didn’t even accept the highest price They agreed to $770k bc the buyer waived inspection and let them live there for 2 additional months for free while their house closed. HGTV is popular for a reason - diy upgrades and fixer uppers work

Zlow is notoriously inaccurate. But, any real 300K increase by flipping in a multi family building is only possible by first buying under market value, then not counting any of the hours put into that remodel, and also doing it il legally.

The ONLY way that flip was a legal remodel was if they are licensed contractors themselves. Multi family buildings have much more stringent remodeling requirements. The first is for permits pulled by licensed professionals.

You should really be worried about the quality of work they did. Yours is connected.

live_wire you are wrong. my neighbors bought their condo for around $400k, over 3 years they did a ton of remodeling themselves and sold for $770k less than 3 years later. They spent less than $70k in upgrades esp bc they did it themselves. Here is the Zillow price history - not estimate - actual priced for paid/sold. Listed for $700k and it sold for $70k over asking price - the actual price they paid for the upgrades. They had a bidding war and didn’t even accept the highest price They agreed to $770k bc the buyer waived inspection and let them live there for 2 additional months for free while their house closed. HGTV is popular for a reason - diy upgrades and fixer uppers work

No Mandy you are wrong. You are right for your neighborhood but you bought a resale. Not a new build. And your market appreciated over several years.

In a new build there is no guarantee that will happen in the next 5-10 years. And one doesn't upgrade in a new built neighborhood above what the neighbors are building.

So say the OP is paying $400k for her new home and other homes that are the same model are selling for the same price. If the OP puts in a paneled fridge and all those upgrades she wants and she winds up spending an additional $10-$15k for those upgrades, she is not going to get $415k when she goes to sell. She will get whatever the market bears in her neighborhood.

If the neighborhood builds in value and prices go up, they will go up for everyone and it will have nothing to do with whether you spent more on upgrades. In fact if you did, you probably won't get that back.

I don’t agree. In 3 years if there is a basic build next to an upgraded model for sale you most certainly are going to draw a higher price for the upgrades.

live_wire I sent the actual purchase and sell prices from Zillow so not sure what could be inaccurate with that. Everything in our building & contractors used needs a sign off with the association, so you are just being silly with all your gloom and doom but thanks for the concern. I am in no way saying most homes will skyrocket like ours - I live in the land of Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Starbucks etc. I am saying you most likely will profit from upgrades. Two cars on a lot same model/year do not sell for the same if one is basic model and one has options.

You don't have to agree. You are still wrong. Ask any realtor except one that is trying to con you into make no "improvements" for resale so they get a quick sale for the same price. They will tell you. Highly homogeneous neighborhoods like tract builds or condos share virtually identical across the board pricing.

Differences in pricing have to do with square footage, corner units, parking spaces, and condition. Condition will only cause deductions, not additions in value. A unit in poor condition can be valued at half the cost of one in good condition. It doesn't work the other way. A unit in great condition is worth the same as any other. That's what people expect.

Very very little of an appraisal valuation has anything to do with "upgrades". Square footage and condition is 95%. Upgrades get you a quicker sale, but for very little more than anyone else with the same house or condo. People who extensively "improve" their tract home or condo need to do so for their own pleasure, not because they will get any of the expense back at resale. They might get a 5% bump. No one is going to pay 50% more for the same condo, no matter how decked out it is. The banks and the appraisers will never let that happen.

Jen S, where the builders make a lot of their profit is in the upgrades. you know that. so if getting glass doors on the cabs is what you want, (as mentioned above) it may be easier to have them do it for you. Paneled fridge? those aren't really a thing now. I'd skip that for the amount of money it would cost.

if you want to save elsewhere, then do the backsplash tile after you move in (please, no 4" piece up the back of the countertop). This way you can pick what you want instead of paying through the nose for something that costs them pennies.

Ditto if you want to upgrade the slab. the builders show you their granite 'upgrades' and charge quite a bit more. I can tell you that those choices are still entry grade. so if you want to save, put in the cheapest laminate they offer. after you move in, go shopping at a stone yard and spend 5K on a true upgrade, something you like and something that you can see the entire slab (instead of a tiny sample). Built-in shelving and other trim work and molding will also cost you 3x as much if they do it. Pick and choose where you can in order to save.

I’m not trying to convince you I’m right- I’m going off what is truly happening in the market. THIS IS FOR PURCHASE/SALE info - This is a unit in my building that was on the top floor & larger than the decked out one. This one had no updates since the build in the late 90s Huge difference in price and they sold within days of each other. This was in no means beat up, just all original AND bigger too. Maybe where you live this is not the case, where I live, it is.

OP-- if your cabinets are standard sizes, it is pretty easy to install drawer organizers, and cabinet pull outs, or roll outs, or even Ikea-style drawers behind the doors (which can be purchased from other sellers than Ikea, but Ikea tends to win on price). Although they may not look as perfect as some specifically made by the cabinet manufacturer. But, getting drawers instead of doored cabinets from the start is a better choice, if you can.

Do look carefully at the builder, the quality of the work, and the surrounding homes and neighborhood (including what it will be like in 5-15 years) before you decide to go forward. Greendesign's comment about the cabinet manufacturer is worth noting -- I would question what I am getting for my $$.

I personally wouldn't spend money on paneling the refrigerator, considering that the life span of most appliances is on average 10 years nowadays.

Champagne taste, beer pockets. Don't over do in a neighborhood with all others at builder grade. Period.

All the world is "comps" beds, baths and school systems. Pick the pecking order.

Adding rolling shelves is doable. We did it on our 35 year old kitchen, as we were not yet ready to upgrade. We did not spend a lot of time doing it perfectly, but I have been using it for 2 years now and it works well. You would probably want to do it more carefully with a new kitchen, but it is certainly doable if you have some DIY skills.

I am not sure what you mean by panelling the fridge. If you mean having a panel on both sides, you can probably do it. If you mean having an integrated fridge with paneled doors, you may want to wonder whether it is worthwhile as it would probably mean that you have to buy a new fridge and install it. Same for dividers in drawers. What do you mean?

Not sure for doors with glass. You may want to figure out how much it would cost to do this, or if this is really something you want to do in DIY. I am not sure this is something I would do myself on a brand new kitchen.

Good luck.

Talk to a realtor. You still don't understand how flips work. One unit that sold higher years ago still sells higher today isn't unusual. You aren't accounting for something in its market appeal beyond being flipped. An older unit in poor condition will of course sell for a lower price than one that is just remodeled. That's the deduction for condition mentioned. Banks have loan guidelines that they won't break. They won't loan someone 600K for a unit valued st 400k. If someone wants to pay over market rates, they have to do so with a LARGE cash infusion over and above the downpayment.

352/420 and 684/770 isnt the difference you seem to that it is. Spending 70K remodeling actually puts them in the hole compared to the other apartment. If they counted their hours, it's an even bigger hole. 332 worth of appreciation vs . 350-70=280 They would have cleared 50K more if they did nothing.

You just proved the point that remodeling loses money.

You just said units sell the same regardless of upgrades...now you are saying “one unit sold higher still sells higher today”. Anyway, this isn’t really what the OP asked. She asked how hard upgrades would be as a DIY. I’m out.

Mandy - your two examples actually disprove your point. The house with the improvements was purchased for $410k in mid 2015, and sold for $770k recently, for an increase of $360K minus $70 k for improvements. So, "profit" was $290k (using the term "profit" loosely since it doesn't take into the normal costs of owning a home). The other condo was bought for $352k in early 2016 and sold for $684k, so "profit" was $332k with no renovation costs. Both condos increased in value by roughly 90% (actually, the cheaper one increased by a bigger %). That's all about the rising market, not about any value added by upgrades.

Before I re-did my kitchen nearly 3 years ago, I called a realtor who lived in my neighborhood and knew it better than any realtor in my town. She told me that while a new kitchen might help me sell my house more quickly, it would not bring me a penny more. She said our neighborhood had become so affluent that buyers were tearing out 2 year old kitchens as they "weren't their taste".

I still re-did my kitchen but for a very low price that I could afford, and I did it for myself, not for re-sale. I was able to re-use much of what was already there, really only removing a detested soffit, moving the location of the refrigerator, and replacing all the cabinets.

It's not easy having champagne taste and a beer budget! As an interior designer, working solely with very high end fabrics, furniture and wall coverings, I definitely had champagne taste. But my late husband was a secondary school math teacher, so beer was expensive for us. I just made what I had look as good as possible. And little by little, over the years, did small upgrades. This is how I was able to keep down the cost of my kitchen - small upgrades over the years that were re-useable.

That same realtor gave me very good advice when we first bought this house and were doing a major remodel. She said one must never overbuild a house or a neighborhood. In my case, she said it would be hard to overbuild my neighborhood, but I sure could do so with my house. I've not forgotten that advice.

okay this is my last post about this bc 1) i cannot resist and 2) you dont get what im saying. if the condo on the 3rd floor did an upgrade, they would have gotten a higher price/profit at least comparable to the $770k sale, not the $680k they got. There is no way this is not correct!

No, they would have lost money, just like the ones who remodeled did. Spending money on remodels is for pleasure. It is a loser as an "investment" financially, and your own figures prove it. The math isn't lying. You're just not understanding what it's saying. The remodelers took 50K less out of the sale than if they had done absolutely nothing with the condo.

Mandy - you need to distinguish between "price" and "profit." The whole point is that an upgraded house may well sell for more than one that hasn't been upgraded, but in many cases, the increase in sale price will not cover the costs of doing the upgrade. The owners of apartment 1 got a better price for their apartment, but a substantially lower profit than the owners of apartment 2. Their renovations cost them more than they received in return: if they'd done nothing, they would still have received that 90% price increase that the owners of apartment 2 got because the increased value of both apartments was set by the rising market and not by the upgrades. And if the owners of apartment 2 had chosen to upgrade to the level of apartment 1, they would likely have had to spend much more than the increased price would have covered, DIY or no DIY.

That is, I suspect, very much the case with the OP. She is unlikely to recover the extra costs of panelled fridge or glass cupboard doors so she either does it for herself with no expectation of increasing her house value, or she just makes the kitchen more functional for herself by doing the drawer inserts.

This sub-discussion reminds me of the people who (used to, I hope not anymore) believe that they "need a mortgage for the tax deduction"; not realizing that they are usually shelling out more in interest payment than they recoup from the deduction.

I don’t agree. In 3 years if there is a basic build next to an upgraded model for sale you most certainly are going to draw a higher price for the upgrades.

No Mandy you will not. What will happen is if you price the house the same as the others in the neighborhood, yours will be the first to sell versus the non upgraded home. Sorry to disabuse you of your info. How many homes have you sold?

This sub-discussion reminds me of the people who (used to, I hope not anymore) believe that they "need a mortgage for the tax deduction"; not realizing that they are usually shelling out more in interest payment than they recoup from the deduction.

No we need the mortgage because mortgages are at a historic low. Investing the cash instead of paying off the house will yield a higher percentage giving you increased savings.

My mortgage is below 4% yet my investments are earning 5-7% this year on average.

You’re all wrong. I’m not and havent been talking about comparing these two homeowners profits. If i bought my condo 20 years ago for $50k, of course I would have a higher profit than if I bought it 2 years ago

-I am saying an updated 1 bed w den on the second floor sold for $770k in April ‘18

-An original non updated 2 bedroom top floor sold for $678k in April ‘18

I am not talking about how much my neighbors made off the sale per person. I am talking about how much more an updated home sells for compared to a non updated one

I used the Zillow prices to show you the difference in sell prices and called out the $770k example because it was a great investment they made.

These sales do not solely rely on a hot market. These both sold the same month. Now give me a logical reason why there is the price difference? UPGRADES.

This has nothing to do with when they bought their condos and their net profit. This entire convo is about if making upgrades is worth it

Let me ask you again - why did the smaller unit on the second floor sell for almost $100k more than the larger one on the top floor the same month/year?

One reason upgrades. You all need to take a breath (and possibly anger management classes) and mentally process the words before going off the deep end with your responses.

Goodness this thread has derailed off into selling debate considering the OP asked a DIY level of difficulty question...

Back to the OP.... depends on how handy you are. If you are already somewhat familiar with doing home DIY, then something like a glass door or oomphing your cabinets might not be so hard... but you haven’t ever done something DIY before, these projects might be a challenge.

another little tangent -- Hawk Construction: "We requested the cabinet be prepped for glass, ensuring the cut-out was available, and then the homeowner installed the fabric. Great way to add character." ... The designer indicated she has seen it stapled to an inside piece of trim.

OP you could probably DIY pullouts, cabinet glass maybe not so easily.

The whole discussion about upgradeds and sale price later doesn't sound like your reason for trying to DIY some kitchen stuff.

The best thing you can do is to learn about options for the cabinets the builder is using and then investigate costs and process for the DIY you're considering.

Others have described why most of the things that you want to cut really should be done at the factory (matching interior and muntin doors) , changed to something else(drawers not pullouts) or not done at all (paneled appliance). Things that I agree with, BTW. So, I’ll focus on the cabinet choice itself.

Timberlake is the same cabinet line as are American Woodmark and Shenandoah. Same assembly lines. Same product. That’s the least expensive semi stock lines sold at Home Depot and Lowes. It’s re-badged in name for builders. It is fine for an entry level fairly basic project, if the less expensive choices are picked.

I term it “semi-stock” rather than “semi custom” because the ability to customize 2-3 things like cabinet depth is very misleading compared to what a real semi custom line allows.

For a more complex project in a more expensive home than a starter home? It won’t work. You can’t really do custom panels, or custom anything. It’s not designed to do anything but a basic kitchen. The “nice” doors or paint options really up the price beyond what another line would cost. If you want upgrades, you’d be better off starting with a higher grade cabinet line from the beginning.

But if you’ve already exceeded your allowance in Timberlake and are looking to cut? You should take a hard look at the rest of the allowances, and the home itself. The typical builder game is to make a home to seem more affordable than it is with very low product allowances.

Most allowances won’t buy what you really want, and are inflated in price to “upgrade”. Builders then make most of their money on the 150K of “upgrades” that it took to get the model home to look like it does. It’s a version of bait and switch that catches the unwary by surprise. Be very careful.

cpartist, you are correct - for some people with some rates. Unfortunately, this is a common idea also when mortgage rates are higher, including much higher, and the average person also unfortunately probably doesn't take that money from the tax refund and invest it.

Sorry for joining the off topic discussion, OP!

Agree with you raee. And also agree using the mortgage for the tax deduction may or may not be a good idea.

Back to the original question, I would spend the money now for the glass doors that you want so the interiors are done correctly. Skip the paneled refrigerator. Pay more to get drawers that pull out rather than cabinets because they are so much more functional. But don't pay extra for interior dividers. You can add that later after you see how you use the space.

well, that point is moot since we can no longer deduct the interest from mortgage loans.

One can deduct mortgage interest IF you have enough other deductions to make your total greater than the new standard deduction. To state that you cannot deduct it is misleading or indicative that you do not understand the new tax laws.

Agree Michelle! I was able to deduct mine on my 2018 return. Made a HUGE difference!

well, pardon me Michelle. I was told standard deductions of interest on a mortgage loan was no longer allowed. maybe in my case it isn't. I will double check w/my tax guy. I've been deducting the interest for the past 30 years. I no longer have a note on my primary, just a rental property.

The new tax laws made it a bit more complicated as the y lowered the total amount of principal on which mortgage interest can be paid to $750,000 which is relevant to HCOL areas.

Also hit hard are HCOL stats such as California, NJ, NY since total of property and income tax deduction is capped at $10,000.

Since the standard deduction for 2018 was raised to $12,000 for singles/$24,000 for married couples, a significant number of people would not have more than $12,000/$24,000 in deductions and therefore the issue of mortgage interest deduction is moot since they don't have enough other deductions

Helen - exactly! It is not the case that mortgage interest is not deductible. What has changed (in addition to the significant modification to exemptions) is the standard deduction and the cap on property/income/sales tax deductibility, but mortgage interest continues to be deductible *if* your itemized deductions add up to greater than the new standard deduction limit.

Helen -- Add the DC Metro area to your list for both state/local taxes (high) and housing (high).

Unfortunately, what's "middle class" in places like DC, NY, and CA are "upper class" in other parts of the country! The Federal tax laws do not take that into account -- they're based on the lower cost of living areas.