growing douglas fir on the prairies
wayne
5 years ago
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Collin 2b Regina
5 years agowayne
5 years agoRelated Discussions
Douglas Firs up to 465 Feet tall.
Comments (59)Fellow tall tree lovers: Let me quote this entry from way back in 2009 radagast(US east coast) "For more information regarding accurate tree measuring, please visit the website of the Eastern Native Tree Society (ENTS) We have lots of information regarding east coast species as well as some on west coast species. There are also plenty of article about accurate tree height measurement methods, historical tree height claims, etc." The work of the Native Tree Society on tree measurement is outstanding, if not "revolutionary." The common measuring technique "of the past" ( I hope it is really "of the past") is what can be called the "tangent method." This involves measuring the distance to the base of the tree from the "observer," and then taking a clinometer reading from the same point to measure the angle to the top. If the ground is not level, a similar measurement of the angle to the bottom must be made, and another tangent calculation. Then addition, or subtraction. The NTS has checked some of the height measurements of the trees listed by the American Forests in the past as national champion trees, and has found errors of as much as 30% or more in those measured by the tangent method. The reason for the errors is not simply errors in the use of the "equipment," but in the fundamental assumption behind the calculations. This tangent calculation assumes that there is a right angle created by the "facts" of the observation, but this is often not the case--in fact, it is virtually never the case exactly. There are two reasons for this. First, IF the actual top of the tree is sighted, it is most likely not directly above the base, as must be assumed if any tangent calculation is used. If it is close to being directly above the base, the measurement will be fairly accurate. Second, and this may result in more serious errors sometimes, what is sighted as the top, may not actually be the top, but some foliage/branch that is closer to the observer than the actual top. This error also in all probability "messes up" any assumed right triangle required for any tangent calculation. The most basic method supported by NTS can be called "sine top, sine bottom." This involves the use of a laser range finder and a clinometer. I start by reading the distance to the top, and then reading the angle to the top, and then doing a sine calculation. Then I repeat, reading the distance to the base, then the angle to the base, and then another sine calculation, adding or subtracting the results as needed. This method can fail to give the correct height of a tree ONLY if the actual highest point of the tree is not sighted. As for the right triangle needed for the calculation, it is always present as a mathematical certainty--it is embedded in the basic assumption that the sine calculation is based on. In other words, if the distance and the angle are read along the same line from the same point, the right triangle is assumed in the sine calculation. No error in this regard is possible. If what is sighted is not actually the top, but a part of the foliage that is closer than it would be if it were directly above the base, the error will give a result somewhat less than the actual height of the tree, not significantly more as is usually the case with the tangent method. The sine method will give an accurate reading, always, of the height of what is sighted above the level the observer is standing on. The NTS Website contains the most detailed description of this most basic sine top, sine bottom method, along with other methods of measuring tree heights, explaining the pros and cons of each. The Wikipedia article on tree measurement is a very good brief summary, giving the "essentials." --spruce...See MoreDouglas Fir and Siberian Spruce
Comments (15)One never knows what folks will do with stuff, and you have to presume the homework has been done. Nonetheless, now that the topic is raised, Cheryl makes the obvious point. Doug-fir is a widely distributed western tree, in the lower montane and mixed evergreen forests. That one may make it outside, albeit struggling. The Siberian spruce is, however, a tree of the Taiga and only in the southern part of its range gets decent heat (the reason the stratification period I gave above is longer); provenance of the seed is utterly crucial for survival in Southern Canada. Jersey? Point being: you must be very patient. Not only for germination, but to baby the plants to ensure their survival. Neither plant is adapted to that climate, so care must be taken to get something out of them, unless the OP is just playing around (hence the low entry cost). Dan...See MoreZone requirements for douglas fir naturalization
Comments (5)I talked to a guy who worked in BC forests since posting this. The original survey didn't know about temperature. Basically they did sample surveys across the province and assigned both the temperature and warmth subzones on the basis of what they saw growing. They would assume generally that higher elevations meant colder. Windward faces meant wetter, northern faces later springs, shorter growing seasons. So my cart is in front of the horse. The reason that there is no DF in the other zones is that DF was used to define the subzone. Later analysis of records pinned down the climate more precisely. But the small difference between where DF grows and wehre it doesn't speaks to it being some other factor. He speculated that it may be the provenance of late frosts. Fir buds just after bud break are susceptible to frost damage. It becomes a race condition: Can the tree get tall enough to escape late frost before there is a bad year. This fits in with an article I saw about bud break in A. lasiocarpa (Alpine fir) that bud break tends to be earlier, referenced to average temps, in northern latitudes. Daylength increases more rapidly in the north, so the risk of a late frost is somewhat lower. Moreover, the growing season in the north is shorter. The combination favours trees that 'jump the gun' even at the risk of higher seedling mortality....See MoreHoopsii and Douglas Fir pine cones
Comments (2)Here these wouldn't be cones but instead deformed shoots produced by infestation with gall aphids. That would be why they'd have needles sticking out of them. The insects settle in and suck on the new shoots, which then grow around them to form protective chambers (galls). If you open one of these up it is a sort of little bug condo or apartment building. You will want to look this condition up and consider a control program as otherwise your trees will be marred by this condition for as long as re-infestation continues to occur. It sounds like they are having other problems as well that need to be identified and corrected before you will be getting good results from your planting. I suppose another possibility may be bagworms. Likelihood of one or the other will vary regionally....See MoreCollin 2b Regina
5 years agowayne
5 years agoL Clark (zone 4 WY)
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agowayne
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5 years agowayne
5 years agoUser
5 years agowayne
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5 years agoUser
5 years agowayne
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5 years agowayne
5 years agoUser
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoUser
5 years agowayne
5 years agoUser
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoCollin 2b Regina
5 years ago
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wayneOriginal Author