Jojo and Jodik , I really LOVE this post..I never saw anyone say that "organics" never work, did you guys? Or that they work as well if not better than "chemical"...But my understanding is that sometimes "organices" can, depending on what happens in a container, and sometimes not.. I am not willing to take that risk with my plants anymore. I am done with depending what happens in my containers, and playing God, "Mother Nature" to figure it out. I am not a follower of some diety, or leader, because I feel this way. The insults around here are enough to make anyone spit, and I can tell you that "AL", a gracious human being is not one of them. Thanks Al for setting a good example in kindness! Hi Steve, and everyone else! Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:06 About fertilizers: Plants do not care from where their elemental nutrition comes. Chemical forms of fertilizer are no better than organic are no better than chemical ..... with qualifications. Any organic molecule (basically - something containing carbon and that was once alive) will have its nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains that will require the aid of biotic soil populations to cleave (unlock). So, organic fertilizers depend on the population densities of soil microorganisms. By nature, organic nutrient supplementation programs in container culture are unreliable and erratic in their ability to deliver nutrients. The reason why is simple: as noted, delivery of nutrients depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture. Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients and possibly inducing ammonium toxicity issues. Chemical fertilizers, on the other hand, are extremely reliable & immediately available for uptake in elemental form. I offer this information from a physiological perspective only. You'll need to work out the organic/inorganic issue for yourself. I want to avoid that argument & adopt a 'to each his own' attitude about it, but it is much easier for me/most of us to help/guide those who use chemical forms of fertilizer because their problems are usually much easier to pinpoint. From the perspective of minimizing potential problems, making sure that plants get all the nutrients they need - and even in the right ratio, w/o fertility levels getting too high, and results, I think fertilizers like Miracle-Gro, Osmocote, and other immediately soluble fertilizers win - hands down. I know you asked for advice from organic growers, but I still thought you may wish to be armed with some info, in case you're not already set in your decision. Take good care & good luck in the next growing season. ;o) Al -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:55 Nice, thorough response, Al :-)) I was the one that directed Ellen here - knew she'd get better container info on this forum than on the Organics. I have a question for you......have you tested or do you know how effective liquid organic formulations might be as a fertilizer source for containers? I'm thinking of the fish or kelp emulsions in particular or the fully soluble liquid products that are available through some organic suppliers (which I assume are also pretty similar in content to the other two, although I've not researched to confirm). As long as the product is fully soluble, a complete fert and contains at least some trace nutrients, won't they offer the same benefits as a soluble synthetic/chemical? And if so, wouldn't they be a suitable organic alternative for those growing numbers of container gardeners that adhere to organic gardening principles? YPP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 14:00 The thing is, that plants absorb nutrients molecule by molecule and though it looks like fish and seaweed emulsions are soluble - they aren't. When you mix them with water, they form a suspension of gigantic organic molecules that are much too large to pass through cell walls. They still require the activity of soil biota to break the molecules down into usable elements. If soil biota is low, these elements remain in the soil or are only slowly digested. You can see deficiencies when there is more than enough of the deficient nutrient(s) in the soil, but they are just unavailable. You may get the idea that you need to fertilize again and again to correct symptoms, and that can be a problem. Since the organic fertilizers tent to more readily carry-over, you can apply fertilizer several times with no results, and when the cultural conditions in the soil next become favorable to soil biota, you get a massive release of nutrients and don't have a clue what happened. I copy/pasted part of my reply above from another of my posts, so I'm not sure that I mentioned that trying to promote high soil biota populations to insure nutrient delivery can also quickly collapse soils because they feed on soil particles. I realize there is some movement in commercial container growing toward using teas & using other methods to promote soil biota, but if you notice, they are generally companies forced to do so to preserve their 'organic grower' status, or companies that specialize in bringing a crop to sale quickly, so rapid soil collapse never becomes an issue Sorrrry 4 any spelng erors..:-)

I made the bypass. I just walk into the hardware store and envision what I need. No list. That particular one I made of all 1/2 pvc. So, one would need 1/2 pvc pipe, a ball valve, two T couplings, two slip x male threaded elbows, and two female threaded unions. Plus primer and glue. To fit mine to a hose, I needed a 1 male and 1 female hose connecter to pvc adapters. Just make sure that one of the last pieces in place is a section of pipe from a T to the ball valve. In other words, put the injector in place, and then determine the length of the final piece of pipe between the ball valve an a T. The blue one in the photo I posted above was 1/2 inch, identical to the one you provided a link to. Significantly larger than the smallest mazzei. The best price I was able to find on mazzie injectors was the source they linked to on their site. Kisko Sales Playing with the 283 Saturday, I started to time how many gpm flowed through it, and how much it would take up, but someone decided to start a shower in the middle of filling a 5 gal bucket, so the flow rate changed with the pressure change. I didn't have time to start over and move everything over to the secondary irrigation source. But I did note that the flow exiting my hose may have been less than 1 gpm, and the suction rate was very high. Much higher than I expected. Emptied 1/2 gallon in a min or two. As I mentioned above, I definitely need the bypass to slow down the uptake rate, and provide reasonable flow for a hose end shower sprayer. Late Sat I was able to get it all setup with diluted sulfuric acid, dial in the bypass, and now my water coming out of the hose is a pH of 5. Perfect for the blueberries I need all this for. You only need the cheaper poly propylene. I got one PP and one NPVDF. I will use the NPVDF when I setup the acid on an automated irrigation system, not this portable hose setup where I am using more dilute sulfuric acid. I donâÂÂt know that I need the NPVDF, but it does have higher chemical resistance and heat resistance, so when IâÂÂm using more concentrated acid in the irrigation setup, I wanted the more durable NPVDF to last longer. The mazzie salesman I spoke with convinced me there may be enough heat creation with concentrated acid injection that the NPVDF was a worth considering. For fertilizer, PP is more than adequate.

This thread keeps being resurrected. I assume that these guys have customers of some sort or another since they are still in business and I further assume that you are similar to the typical customer. Which is to say: you are using this injector in in-ground soil with a dry granular fertilizer similar to miracle gro. Ok, fine. You set it up and it appears to be working for you. But have you checked? Do you have a high quality EC meter with which you can monitor the concentration of the fertilizer that is being applied to your plants? I have one and I've checked (something they say on the website we could do but they hope that we'll "trust them"). The unit does not function as advertised even using the typical dry granular fertilizer. And yet you are still happy with it. Why? Because you see plants that are in your view doing fine and you see the fertilizer being used eventually. The fact that there is unevenness in application is not apparent to you from the plant (because you don't have consistent applications to compare it to) nor from testing of the output from the unit. But it *is* to me and it *should* be to you. The fact that you're almost certainly using mineral soil will mitigate some of the downsides of the unit - but you'd still be much better off with a steady application of a known quantity of fertilizer. Plant vigor would increase and you would have better control over the timing of concentration at certain times of the year. Anyone who will be happy with the fact that this unit will take fertilizer and in some way or another put it on your plants at some dosage or another will be happy with the unit! *That is not what they say it will do.* To answer some of your questions: No, they did not offer me a refund. For that I would have had to send it back to the company from which I purchased it - at my expense. The acid has nothing to do with anything. I also tested this unit with straight liquid fertilizer (with which they claim the unit will function as advertised - it doesn't) - and I had the same result. I was attempting to use it with acids at first, but when that didn't work I did further testing and found the unit doesn't function as advertised in *any* scenario that I tested. Here's the thing: if this unit does not apply fertilizer in a consistent concentration (and it emphatically does *not* do that) - then what is the POINT of the unit? Anyone who wants fluctuating concentrations of fertilizer should just be applying a dry granular product directly to the soil. And - most importantly - using the correct dry products directly in the soil one could almost certainly achieve more even concentration of available fertilizer than with this unit! Get yourself some sulfur coated urea or polymer coated urea products (or equivalent) and your plants would be better off, you will likely have saved money on the fertilizer itself, and you will not have had to purchase this sham of a product. Or if you want more control then spring for a quality fertilizer injector that does the job a fertilizer injector is supposed to do: provide consistent concentration of fertilizer for maximum plant vigor and control. There are quite a few companies which make products that work. Some are even in the same price range as this piece of junk (venturi injectors) though they still have the downsides discussed in earlier posts.

Well, this is kind of embarassing. When I went out to disconnect the fertilizer injector and do the finger test for water, I saw that the injector was ONLY going to my containers. Apparently I set it up differently than I had originally planned. So, I apologize for bothering you all with a question that it turns out is not relevant to this forum. For what it's worth, however, I do have an EZ-FLO injector and I was glad to read the other thread about your experience, redshirtcat. Thanks a lot for sharing. I'm going to go buy a tester kit this week to see what I can learn. I did fill the injector half with vinegar and half with FP, so hopefully they aren't getting TOO much fertilizer (and they seem to be thriving). Still, I'd like to know what's really going on. As for the current problem, I do have clay soil and the ground is too wet, so I am going to lessen the water. I'm going to guess at a magnesium deficiency because I do think the tomatoes look a lot like terry's picture. I did add epsom salts, but also some gysum. I didn't think I added too much, but perhaps I did? Odd that it took 2 months to show up, though. If anyone has additional suggestions, I would really appreciate hearing them. Thanks to everyone for your advice.