I'd say about three unless dementia is a factor.

Thanks for that - I'm going back to clarify.

I try not to judge. I've worked with kids a lot and there's usually more to the story than bratty behavior. I feel for the parents of special needs children and all the dirty looks they must get.

But yes, some parents do find their kid's obnoxious behavior cute, and I'm not a fan of that but we rarely know the full story.

To be clear, I'm talking about neurotypical children.

Ah, okay. I assumed you meant random children when you said public places. In which case there would be no way to know if they were neurotypical or not.

If you know the child and the parents, that's different. I would say 4. I've worked with a lot of 3 year olds and they aren't always able to cope with the world. It depends on the kid.

If the parent is trying to deal with a child's behavior, then I silently wish them luck and my sympathy. If the parent is ignoring the child's behavior, then I'm annoyed no matter the age of the child.

As for rude behavior by seniors, I always assume that their age has eroded their filters and controls and try not to take their behavior personally. That said, there are times when my tongue is figuratively bleeding from biting it and other times when I have to excuse myself from the senior's presence so I can find my patience.

I'll generally give kids a pass but not the parent, if they aren't handling the situation.

Seniors... as in older seniors... I'll always give a pass provided they haven't been terrible their whole lives. Even if a senior doesn't have dementia related problems, there are any number of things that can cause them to not feel good and be grumpy. I think they deserve a pass.

Edited for clarification... no one, not even a senior would get a pass for behavior such as chloecats GM displayed unless they had dementia or something related.

Pretty much the same as Fun2BHere. Except the biting the tongue is not working as well with my in laws anymore. My mother in law can either cry at the drop of the hat or nag like a terrier. My father in law can be rude and intolerant. In cases I can’t stay quiet I tell my husband I am getting old, too and don’t have the time to deal with this (insert something, but I don’t use bad words)

There is an age range, maybe 1-5 and sometimes older, when kids can't be expected to have considerate behavior in restaurants. Except for kids' restaurants, the way to deal with this is to not take them to restaurants. We used to call it "restaurant behavior" and singing and beating on the table isn't proper restaurant behavior and is very inconsiderate. The same conduct would be inappropriate table behavior at home and perhaps because this was in a public place, it was even more inappropriate. Sorry, your friend sounds like she's clueless.

The blame lies with the responsible adults who should know better, not with the kids. There is an excess of stupid parents in our communities, each expresses their stupidity in many ways and sometimes differently from one to the next.

Though normally a direct person myself, I too would have asked to be moved and would have informed management that the disturbance was bothering me.

Iris S, I think your in-laws are my in-laws! Just kidding, but the behaviors do sound very familiar.

I don't really know. I have a 14 month old DGS and while I don't hold him responsible for his behavior, I do try to divert his attention or take steps to avoid his behavior from interfering with others. We are working on whispers as a game. On the other hand, I m also spend daily time with my 87 year old know it all Mother, with mild dementia, in social situations with others around. She is pretty docile and agreeable, but take pleasure in 'correcting' others when she doesn't think they have there facts straight, be it what they had for lunch or an obsure tidbit of Elizabethian history. I don't have a clue how to handle that other than smile and roll my eyes (she is virtually blind so doesn't catch the eye roll).

With kids it really depends on the situation. Grocery shopping at noon - they get a pass, they're probably tired and hungry and maybe they had an appt and mom/caregiver tried to push it by buying a few groceries so as not to have to go out again.

As of last week we will no longer be taking my 89 year old mother with dementia to restaurants for lunch. She slammed down cutlery on the table several times and yelled at the server. Instead, we will take her to dog parks or the beach and take a snack with us as an outing. Kind of like what you do with young kids.

I found it very annoying that a family brought a young toddler (probably under 2) that cried off and on thoughout a very long high school graduation. They were seated right next to an exit from the balcony into a very large hall, and could easily have taken the child out there when crying. Even better, left child at home. Crying babies/children should always be removed if at all possible - very annoying to have to endure.

Kids??? They usually get a pass until 18-early 20s. By that age, you should have been exposed to enough reality that you can't blame your upbringing anymore.

The parents are a different story. ;)

When I see young children acting up in public, my diffault is to look at the adults/caregivers to assess the situation.

If it appears that the adult/caregiver is attempting to reasonably get the situation under control then I presume that the child/young one is either tired, hungry, ill, or perhaps has any one of the number of social development disorders that might make such behavior acceptable, or at the very least, understood.

If I see a little loud mouthed bratty child and spot their caregivers giving no care and paying no attention, or worse, encouraging or behaving in the same manner, then I generally pressume that the child/ young person has had little to no exposure to correct behavior/parenting.

I'm always frustrated at the child's behavior, but for me, especially when it comes to younger children, I tend to judge the PARENTS re/actions to gauge the situation.

I also know quite a few people who have children at the top of the growth charts.

These kids LOOK like they are much older than they are. As such, they tend to get judged by strangers in public as BEING much older than they are. You see what appears to be a 4 or 5 year old having a full on melt down temper tantrum in a store at 11:30am, little do you know that this child JUST turned 2, and is missing lunch/nap time.

Old people get no pass unless they are with handlers/caregivers, then I will once again look to the caregivers response to gauge my own.

I am quite aware that things aren't always as they seem, I try to be tolerant.

I agree with Blfenton. There are always alternatives. It is not cute for your child to stand up and look over the booth's backrest and continuously clap, bang and yell. Even if he/she is just playing. This isn't a playground.

I waited until my kids could quietly sit and eat a meal before taking them to a family (note the keyword family) restaurant.

I don't particularly mind meltdowns in supermarkets as I am moving along anyway and the episode will be left behind.

Side story: I used to work with severely disabled young adults. We tried to give them everyday experiences and when we planned an outing we practiced, practiced and practiced. And when we were done, we practiced some more. My guys went to McDonald's like it was a five-star restaurant. WE had to assess constantly. For some going to an outdoor concert was the answer rather than a movie where they couldn't sit quietly. There are always equal alternatives if you take the time to look.

We are in the age of entitlement. Let's not worry about the other person's experience.

There are two basic thoughts on children in public. Expose them so they can be taught how to act or keep them home until they can behave. I am in the camp that judges the parents at any age the child is. I don't think it is too much to expect parents to make sure their child ANY AGE is not disturbing, disrupting, anyone else. Parents who think every behavior exhibited by their child is adorable are the most irritating. Not sure how to deal with airplanes but except when one CANNOT a poor behaving child needs to be removed for the sake of the rest of the people at a venue. It is completely unacceptable to inflict poor behavior on others, I don't care if they are old/young/challenged or just RUDE. Parents/care givers who do nothing are the bottom line issue.

I was blessed with a mom who wouldn't say anything negative about anyone even in private. When I lived at home and she came back from her job with a story about someone in her head, she would start to tell us and then stop and say that she couldn't finish the story because it wasn't her place to say anything. On the other hand, she was quite passive aggressive when bothered by something and she lived with us for 6 years until she passed at 92. Sometimes my DH & I "clarified" the problem with her and sometimes we just accepted that it was her way of complaining. (Middle child in a large family who never learned confidence) She was a sweet woman and my DH, whose own mom was self-centered, loved having a mom who loved him back unconditionally.

Re kids in public - I am firmly in the camp that it is up to the parents to recognize when the child (any age) is acting in such a way that it is affecting the rest of the people in the venue. It is up to the parents to change the behavior or remove the child. No exceptions and I never blame the child.

Never judge. You have no idea what's going in their world. Love!

I remember my grandpa, nicest man ever, started using "bad" words for racial groups as his alzheimer's set in -- kind of funny, he'd use the word but he never did speak badly of the group, other than referring to them as _____'s. In his case, I think it would have been obvious from family reactions that this was not normal, etc.

I agree that kids under the age of, say 5, are largely unpredictable and think that most parents do what they can in public to keep things under control. After that age, I think kids can be taught how to behave and if they are not, I don't see it as the kids' fault

When and where I grew up, children were rarely brought to restaurants until they were old enough to sit quietly. We were taken to places where you ate in the car, like A&W or locally owned drive-in stands. On the road, we took a picnic or stopped for food and found a park. That said, by the time my own son came along, children were going everywhere. The few times he couldn't keep it together, we left the store or the restaurant.

The vacuous J word. What does it mean? When an uncontrolled kid needs to be elsewhere because of disruptive behavior, it's okay to :

Wonder what would it take for the moronic parents to realize there's a problem they need to act on

Be annoyed

Be angry

Be disappointed that the restaurant experience expected and paid for is being spoiled

Look scornfully at those concerned

Complain

Figure the parents are clueless inconsiderate louts

Move or leave

JUST AS LONG AS NO "JUDGING" OCCURS?

As soon as a kid starts to act up, discipline accordingly. Don't let them throw a tantrum, period. The more they do, and get away with it, then they do it for attention.

I have no patience for bratty kids, whatever the reason.

I remember taking our DGS 'outside for a walk' when he became restless at lunch with all adults.. He was three. Kids that age need to *move*.

We were having lunch with our DS and family when our DGD was four. DIL corrected her twice. (For dropping down under the table - whining -- playing with her food -- whatever.). She told her she would have to go out and sit in the car if the misbehavior continued. Third infraction...out they went, to return in ten minutes, point having been made.

I frequent the Hawaii forums on Trip Advisor. I have to hold my tongue when people ask, "What can we do with our one- and three-year-olds?" (Stay home with them -- whether *home* or in a condo.) They ask for 'family friendly' restaurants. (Oh, please! Where do you take them when you are at home? McDonald's?) There are couples who have not figured out that things have changed. They are no longer a twosome taking a 'vacation'; they are now taking 'family trips', and activities need to be adapted to the youngest child.

I don't want to share any restaurant with with a couple of toddlers. I don't want to take any to one. The toddlers don't want to go! This is adult *inappropriate behavior*.

I don't believe in "passes" in most situations. A child put into an inappropriate situation for their age doesn't need a pass, but rather a parent that is willing and able to correct the situation. Even a quite young children, (ages 7 ,6 and 4) we were taken to some very upscale restaurants and expected to behave. That meant sitting quietly in our chairs, speaking quietly among ourselves and entering into the adult conversation when spoken to. My siblings and I were taught that was appropriate behavior and looked forward to hearing that we were "going out". It meant polish our Mary Jane Patent Leather Shoes and choose a smocked dress. I'm thankful I was taught how to behave, use appropriate silver etc early in life. I'm rarely in those type of establishments now, but if I find myself there, can comfortably navigate.

I normally blame the parents for any unwelcome/disruptive behavior that they allow to continue. However I recall one exception I encountered where the parents IMHO had to be given a pass.

I was on an international flight from Europe to the US, and in the next set of seats over was a couple with two children, who (as a guess) were 6 and 8 years old. The kids were crying and screaming and making a big fuss, and although the couple was trying to calm and quiet the kids, it was to no avail. After my wife grumbled and moved off to another seat, the couple (obviously exasperated) apologized to those around them saying they had just adopted the kids in Russia, and the kids spoke no English and the couple spoke no Russian.

I would certainly give that couple a pass, bob-cville. What a challenge!

Years ago when I was in my late teens, we were at a house party with a few different generations present.

This little girl with really solid shoes, about 5 years old, came over and started kicking us (about three of us teens, who'd just been conversing with each other). She had turned into laying into me when her parents showed up. I'd simply reached over and held her away from me at arm's length.

Her parents were furious at me.

"She's kicking me and she needs to stop".

"You're so much bigger than her, let her."

I lost it then and there, and called the kid a BRAT, and let them know what I thought of their parenting skills, as in "so this makes your BRAT right?" I didn't even know these people, and I was supposed to be their kid's kicking bag?

Years later, I'd still like to smack those parents. I hope they got the handful they deserved.

It's very hard sometimes...being old. In my family, we were expected to have some manners and self control perhaps at Kindergarten age. We sat quietly in church. Period. There were no toys at the dinner table, no poking each other and jumping up and down. No running and screaming in the house ever. I have been told that this is rigid and old-fashioned. I keep my mouth shut and am grateful that my hearing is not so good anymore.

It is very easy to judge. My son was very tall for his age, so we got hassled a lot by people who thought he shouldn't be doing x or y. I do question tho, why people in walmart or winners or even value village MUST persist in shopping when their child is clearly on the verge of a mental breakdown, I get groceries are necessary but clothes shopping? My son was horrible in most clothing stores, a nightmare so I didn't have new clothes for something like 7 years.

Many parents just tune-out their child's bad behavior. They barely hear it and wrongly assume others do not hear it either. I can only imagine what a 3 ring circus their homes are.

Husbands Grandmother was a sweet, wonderful and very intelligent woman. She was about 80 yrs old when she made some comment while in my presence about something, I don't even recall what it was. But I was rather taken aback. She realized that, and said, "Well, I AM 80, I guess I can say whatever I want."

To which I replied, "Well if you're 80, then you're old enough to know better."

HA! good response pudgeder. My MIL thought the same thing. She didn't need a filter anymore, because people would pass it off as " an old woman speaking." Not true though. Gives old women a bad rap! lol

On another flight the child behind me was almost constantly kicking the back of my seat. His mother did notice and several times and said "Don't kick the back of the seat, its not very nice" the kids response each time was to kick the back of my seat more violently and more frequently for a minute or two. And the mother's response was nothing.

Then later at the end of the flight, the flight attendant came by a couple of times and asked the child "Are you done with that glass? I can take it." To which the child petulantly responded "No! I want it!" Which is fine. However the last time the attendant said "You have to give the glass to me now, so I can finish the final sweep of the cabin." Which is a command, not a request. Again the child petulantly responded, "No! I want it!", pulling away as the attendant reached for it. Which is not fine, and in fact refusal to comply with the directions of a flight attendant is a violation of federal law.

The attendant explained she needed to finish the final sweep of the cabin before the pilot was allowed to land, the mother tried to talk and coax and wheedle and bargain with the child for about 30 seconds, the child's response was to kick the mother, kick my seat, scream some more, and squirm to prevent the glass from being taken. At that point I undid my seat belt, stood up, reach over the back of the seat, and plucked the glass from the child's hands, and handed it to the flight attendant. She thanked me, and finished the going through the last few rows of the cabin, reported in, and within 30 seconds the pilot started the final parts of the landing process.

Meanwhile the mother is ranting at me about touching her kid, (I didn't touch him), defending her complete lack of parenting, and threatening to file a complaint with the airline about me or file assault charges against me. The worst of it though is a burly moron from the row behind her took up her cause, joined in with verbally attacking me, and then even proceeded to follow me through the terminal, asserting he was a lawyer, threatening to file charges on her behalf, and threatening to assault me to see how I liked it.

So to answer the original posting, when I stop giving a child "a pass" for their bad behavior, is certainly when the child's behavior is breaking federal law, and (very slightly) endangering everyone around them.

bob_cville I would have given you a high five. As a parent you don't bargain with your children. You tell them what's what and that's the end of that. Kids are NOT supposed to be in charge.

You should have told her your child has been assaulting the back of my seat the entire flight.

I was on a flight one time and the child behind us was kicking the seat. It shook our row of three seats. I final turned around and asked the mom to please ask her son to stop kicking the seat. She proceeded to tell me that her child was not kicking the seat. I could not believe she completely denied it. In any case, the child did hear me and the kicking stopped for the rest of the flight.

I will never understand some parents...

I tend to give everyone the benefit of doubt first, asking nicely to correct said behavior when it directly affects me. It's a tough call though, since people are usually strangers and we don't know what the underlying cause of the behavior may be (dementia, autism, bad parenting and so on). I try not to judge. It's hard sometimes because we cannot control the situation and sometimes there appears to be the simplest solution......but maybe not.

I am a relatively scary looking person and have a certain way with kids. One day, while grocery shopping, I had to run back to the baking aisle for something. I found a young boy (8 or 9) merrily pulling all the gallon jugs of oil off the bottom shelf onto the floor. I walk fast and quiet so imagine his surprise to see me appear as if out of nowhere right next to him! I just looked at him and said, in a low voice, "you will clean these up when you're done, won't you?". He said "yes ma'am" in a scared voice and started right up cleaning.....just then his mom came around the corner and yelled at him to "GET AWAY FROM THAT SHELF"....so he left them laying on the floor...…*sigh* There was an opportunity missed.

just to clarify, when I said don't judge, I didn't say it would be easy. But it is something we should strive for. Loving rude people is really hard.