If people kneel in churches, and it is seen as respectful, I'm not sure I understand what the problem ever was.

As far as the NFL goes, since I'm bored out of my gourd by football, they can do whatever they want, although I find the rule on the silly side. They've never gotten a dime of my money anyway. (The last time I ever paid for cable was late 1980's, and a tree took out my unused cable line in 1992, no loss. ESPN wasn't included on the service I did get before that.)

EDIT: before anyone assumes... I cancelled cable because the prices were going up faster than my income, and I'd always rather read books, and I didn't see the point in paying over $100 to get anything I'd actually like to see the four or five times a month I'd actually have time to watch. TV is not a bad or evil media, just was overpriced (for me) back in that day. And, well, I got out of the habit.

Its clear from your posts about "Idea to reduce the number of gun massacres" that you are strongly against any abrogation of your rights, as you see them, under the Constitution. But apparently you are fine with others rights as guaranteed by the Constitution being quashed so that you don't feel uncomfortable.

bob_cville: I’m not even going to try to set you straight on that first part regarding what I said — on a different post — vis-à-vis my rights. As for the rest of it, this is what I said: “I think this was the right move business-wise.”

Dear Bob, I am all for their right to protest. No where did I say they did not have the right to protest.

Just like those of us who DO respect the Constitution AND the symbols of our country, have the right to protest against the protestors. Apparently you think only YOU have the right to decide who can and can not protest.

When one of your loved ones comes home in a coffin under that flag they fought for maybe you would have a different view of the disrespect shown. Apparently you think I do not have the same rights they do. So laughable and hypocritical.

It's just a difference of opinion whether the gesture is disrespectful or not. Many people, including veterans, do not believe it is disrespectful.

I just think it's interesting that the NFL brushes off domestic violence and health issues like concessions, but when it comes to people exercising constitutional rights, they are really quick to make a change.

Money has been more important than the Constitution on our country for a very, very long time. The Constitution is used as a means of justification of financial decisions.

Huh? Just what does a flag-draped coffin have to do with this?

My ancestors defended our nation in active service in every war from the Revolution up to the Korean War. How does that have any bearing on the inequalities and indignities imposed upon some Americans for no reason other than the color of their skin -- while you support our most prominent citizen draft dodger?

This has been battered around for a while. The truth is, because of the original taking a knee, they lost revenue. Bottom line. The paying customer did not approve of this show of protest at a game. They had to figure out a way to fix it.

My take on this is that sports are entertainment. I really don't want to know about an athlete's political view when I am there to watch a game that I paid hard earned money for. Same if I go to see a Broadway Show or a concert.

Yes, everyone has the right to protest, but does that mean anywhere and everywhere?

So, now what? Should we take the tradition of the National Anthem out of the equation?

I think that's the core of the issue though. Minimizing it to a "political view" when it's a life or death daily reality for African Americans.

It's just very telling that people are more upset about their sports being interrupted than the message that is being sent.

Though If I was an owner, I’d have pushed for making it mandatory that all players and personnel stand — respectfully — for the anthem.

Agree.

It is the right of an employer to subject his employees to rules. I expect to see a band of brother athletes only emerging on the playing fields when it is time for them to do what their employers hired them to do...play a game.

Agree. It wasn't a place for a political demonstration.

It seems like a simple choice you can support the flag and the national anthem which are mere symbols of our country, or you can support the Constitution which is the foundation on which our country was built, and the reason why the "symbols" have any importance, whatsoever.

Fallacy of forced choice. You present this argument as if only two choices exist -- as if you may value one or the other thing. In reality, you can support BOTH the flag /anthem /symbols AND the Constitution.

My employer would have a problem with me wearing my "Dogfighting is for pussies" t-shirt, complete with picture of a cat flying through the air at a dog, to work.

They have a policy that if you go to a political rally or protest,you are not to wear anything with their company name on it.

While I really don't see what the big deal was, it is an employer's decision as to what is appropriate behavior while on the clock,or representing them, I guess. I agree it was a business decision. The players have plenty of time,money and influence to make an impact off the field,if they are that passionate about it.

All that being said, I agree that it was made into a big issue by politicians and in doing so,they just made it grow and grow. I didnt care that they took a knee during the anthem,but it was unprofessional,like my shirt.

Everyone has the right to protest, but do they have the right to protest AT WORK? Why can't the players make their political statement on their own time?

When this began I was rather SHOCKED the owners one at a time didn't remind the players they are AT WORK and will behave as TOLD when AT WORK. Then reading the decision, who abstained and why I learned there are owners who agree as the players do. It's a sticky wicket to be sure. My dad gave 20+ year to the USAF--flew missions over Vietnam. Many of those men came home to atrocious behavior. Is it really too much to ask for Patriotism to be shown in the public arenas? I am hearing it is. FREEDOM means different things to different people, sadly. It makes my heart sore that AMERICANS turned off their TVs in the face of this display of "freedom". THAT is freedom at work!!

Then my next question is, why do we include the anthem in a sports event?

Most of us remember growing up starting the day at school pledge allegiance. What is happening now? I know there were many isssues of protests.

Racial tensions have gotten so much worse. I am not quite sure why. We have raised a whole generation of eco-friendly, politically correct sustainable children.

When do these values start "trickling up?"

The NFL's sexist policies toward women should be enough for real men to protest by not viewing or buying the latest greatest football jersey. They're not. Says a lot about men who support the NFL.

.

Why can't the owners "make them stand?" The Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) with the NFL Players Association is silent on this issue, that's why. On the other hand, the NBA CBA is very specific on this issue: players must stand during the playing of the anthem, but they are allowed to wear shirts that express their opinions before the game starts.

Given that a gesture meant as a reminder of a social injustice, meant to be conveyed in a respectful way, has been blown up into a political issue ... I think the NFL was correct to address it. But, their business decision largely "punts" responsibility back to the teams, so I don't see it as resolving the political issue.

"I stand to honor the promise the flag represents.
You kneel because that promise has been broken.
I stand to affirm my belief that all are created equal, and to fight alongside you for that promise.
You kneel because too few stand with you.
I stand because we can be better.
You kneel to remind us to be better.
I stand to honor all that have fought and died so that we may be free.
You kneel because not all of us are.
I stand because I can.
You kneel for those who can't.
I stand to defend your right to kneel.
You kneel to defend my right to stand.
I stand because I love this country.
You kneel because you love it too."

Andrew Freborg

Freedom. Won by some for all. Strange thing, Freedom. It's free to those who would never, ever die for it. Precious to those who fought to defend it.

Hmm, Brushworks, I don't think your dramatic words fit all circumstances. I was in the military, my mother was too, neither of us in combat. My father was in combat. I don't think any of us thought of it as fighting for freedom nor regarded freedom as particularly precious at the time or thereafter. I made sure my life wouldn't be in jeopardy when I was in, I was unwilling to do that. Especially not for the phony baloney going on at the time (inducted in 1970). I don't think my views are either extreme or unusual, certainly most of the people who joined reserve units as I did to remove draft jeopardy (and there were millions of us) did so as a safe haven, not as an opportunity to be in the military.

Most people in developed countries these days (without totalitarian regimes) have freedom and aside from those that were behind the Iron Curtain, very very few people alive today in Europe or elsewhere (including the US, excluding Vietnam vets) have fought in combat.

I'm not offended by anyone protesting anything, that's a global human right. I even think the UN statement on human rights says so. It happens everywhere (reference same countries as above).

Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the anthem to draw awareness to issues of “social inequality against minorities”.

What social inequalities are they lacking? Are they referring to black lives matter or something else now?

The average salary of an NFL player is $2.1 million, according to Forbes! Are they having salary issues?

Elmer,

I'm a veteran too. Active duty, 1st Marine Division, 1969-1975.

My son served three deployments (Army Reserve officer) in Middle East mess.

I don't mind anyone/everyone protesting.I encourage it.

That doesn't change my position on willingness to die for freedom, like the men of 4 July, 1776.

Check your history, Brushworks.

The colonists were fighting for independence, not freedom. They had freedom as colonies but felt they were economically disadvantaged by and also disliked the rule of the distant English monarch and Parliament (in which they had no representation).

Members of the Continental Army were mostly mercenaries doing it for pay, The poorer working classes were very over-represented. More affluent people, those who had most to gain from independence, mostly didn't join the army. Washington was a notable exception, he saw his role (for which he volunteered) as an opportunity to gain political power big time. He was right about that.

1776 was early days for the fighting, which continued through 1782. The significance of July 4th is the Declaration of Independence, not anything to do with the war or any battle. I don't believe many, if any, of the men who signed the Declaration were in the Army. Maybe none at all.

The war came to an unexpectedly easy end for the colonists because a number of European countries declared war on Britain, causing them to have to pull back and redeploy forces. Why did this happen? A version of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", they did it to help the US and maybe take advantage of Britain's distraction.

JeCrigler

Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the anthem to draw awareness to issues of “social inequality against minorities”.

What social inequalities are they lacking? Are they referring to black lives matter or something else now?

Mr. Kaepernick was using his status to bring awareness of issues that affect Black people in America. And before anyone asks "why he couldn't have found a better way", additionally, he has donated $1M+ to charities.

If you think that being a wealthy athlete makes a person immune from these issues, I'll direct you to view the video of the Milwaukee PD tasing a Milwaukee Bucks player, Sterling Brown, over a parking violation.

I agree with former NFL player, Jack Brewer...."The players have to realize...and the public has to realize...these guys are at work...There is no job in America that you can go into and protest your political views in the middle of your job."

Phoggie, I think that is a very valid point.

It is a valid point but how many jobs do you have to stand for the national anthem every time you report for work.

Every job has it's own requirements, Bifenton....that's the employer's right. You

agree to these requirements when you ask them to hire and pay you. Well,

I never had a job that after I was hired, I was allowed to agree or refuse to

do any of the requirements, anyway. Lucky old football players with that choice? Yes, sir....I want your money....no sir...do not expect me to follow

any of your rules, though...I'm special.

If the owners didn't like it, they could have fired the players. But since that would hurt their bottom line, they didn't and instead pushed to have the league be the bad guys with the new rules. I think it's cowardly and selfish.

I think it's just another distraction. The situation may have resolved itself had trump stayed out of it.

"There is no job in America that you can go into and protest your political views in the middle of your job"

This isn't the case, it isn't true at all.

Anyway, people in the public eye (for whatever occupational reason) often take any public exposure opportunity to communicate/broadcast their opinions, no matter what the situation and no matter what the opinion. It's nothing unique, it happens every day.

The Presidency, for one!

“I don’t agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

No reason to defend it to the death, frosted, anyone living in a democratic country anywhere in the world has freedom of speech. It's not unique to the US. Even some living in non-democratic countries do too.

I thought this was interesting. And disturbing.

Why is this disturbing? Hitler became chancellor in Germany in January 1933, the country was ruled by a dictatorship thereafter and this appears to have happened in 1934.

The Snopes site says that this article is misleading, the team's action in their view had nothing to do with a political protest. Rather, it was to take politics out of the match being played in France, to avoid a negative reaction from an opponent and its fans. The ban covered all German football (soccer) teams and related ONLY to playing in France.

Funny enough, the article also compares this "forced patriotism" to the NFL matter. Maybe this is how you got to the incident and the clipping? If so I hope you read the whole piece.

Ban on international matches

I found it disturbing because it's yet another example of similarities between Hitler's dictatorship and the leaning-toward-dictatorship tendencies of the current president. And that's all I'm going to say. I have no desire to engage with you, Elmer. I had more than enough of that yesterday.

I don't understand how the argument about standing for the anthem is more important than the reason for the protest. Shouldn't we care more about the mistreatment of our fellow citizens?

It’s not the protest itself that is the issue at debate, it’s the timing and the method.

There’s no question that the mistreatment of fellow citizens and in light of recent immigration policies, non citizen’s as well, is a very important and concerning issue. Sadly, it was a concern long before mr cheeto head was in office and it will continue to be a concern after he’s gone. I don’t think those who disagree with the taking of a knee at a sports event disagree with that.

Some say that like it or not, this particular protest was a success simply because it gained national attention. To the contrary, IMO it was a complete fail because the attention it’s received is not focused on the message at all. Folks are angered by it for a variety of reasons so the message has been lost on that.

The fact is is that Mr. Kaepernick chose the wrong platform by which to protest. His employer, the NFL lost revenue and as a result, Mr. Kapernick is no longer employed. That in itself is not a black or white issue because it’s no different from anyone else who causes a substantial loss to the company they work for. The efforts taken by the league to try to appease their fan base, ie their customers, is also angering people with their continuing change of policy and still the reason for the protest is lost among the masses.

If Mr. Kaepernick had protested in a way that didn’t impose negatively on the very people he was trying to get the attention of, he’d still have a job and the conversation would instead be focused on his message. He was fortunate in that he had a platform that offered him a variety of choices, which is something a lot of people who want to protest something don’t have. I wish he would have used that platform more wisely so his message could be the topic of debate but he didn’t.

As for Brushworks and others who’ve served our country, especially by stepping into harms way, your service is so appreciated. I think it takes a special kind of person to do that. My father served 22 years in the US Navy, he fought in Korea and Vietnam. He had just joined the Merchant Marines so he could return to service when he passed and he too was a special kind of person.

Here's how Nate Boyer got Colin Kaepernick to go from sitting to kneeling

One could respect the NFL leadership more if they were to show some concern for domestic violence on the part of their workers ... or the drastic effects, including life-long major disability, or even shortened life, caused by those concussions that they've been ignoring for these many years.

This latest appears to be something of a tempest in a teapot, in comparison.

ole joyful

Diane -- Here's another video on the topic;

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/05/28/nate-boyer-ex-green-beret-nfl-player-nfl-anthem-bts.cnn

Just in case some don't have time to watch -- here's the gist of what he said at the end, slightly paraphrased:

"I'll say this -- what most of them died for was not the right to protest, for patriotism, the American flag, the anthem or any of that. What they died for is the man on their left and their right. And if we can't live for the man on our left and our right back at home, respectfully, despite our differences, then what in the hell did they die for?"

45 now says that those who stay in the locker room are disrespectful. The NFL got played.

For those who served, I appreciate your service. (no matter what the capacity)

I see a lot of people posting here who post regularly in Hot Topics. Please don't bring that stuff over here, this is a peaceful forum.

I appreciate the military's service who protects our right to protest. Ask me how I know. I come from a military family who believes in the right to take a knee. They're not offended by protesting. It's very American to protest. Not allowing someone to protest because a group disagrees with what they're saying isn't American. Broaching a politically charged topic is the problem, not forum participation. Peace out!

I agree completely with rob's preceding comment, with one added thought:

Along with the nearly 50,000 killed during the Vietnam War, there have been hundreds and some thousands killed in various other actions since the Korean War. Including most recently in the Middle East. If I were King, I would have assessed every one of these military actions to be NOT NECESSARY. It would be my responsibility as King, and it is the responsibility of the American public, to make sure that military lives are protected and not wasted on useless military incursions.

That's how to best respect and honor those who serve. Keep them safe.

This is the second thread where the above poster has told people who post on Hot Topics that they are not welcomed to post here on political topics. What nerve.

I can't get beyond the snopes.

This is easily fixed. Don't play the national anthem at any ball game. Problem solved.

lindylu, that's a very, very good idea. I've never understood why it's played to begin with.

I've long had the same thought about the Pledge of Allegiance at public events. Both have always seemed odd and awkward in those situations. Avoid the controversies, there's nothing to lose.

It has been a very long time since I attended any professional sport (other than a cycling race) but I seem to remember being very annoyed with fellow spectators who continued to chat, walk about, and stuff their mouths during the national anthem. Are these the same folks who are so upset about the kneeling, or has spectator behavior changed?