first those tests are unreliable. second, the test measures the available nutrients. But those increase on their own when there is sufficient biology, they are just extracted from existing humus where they are currently unavailable. A lawn is a monoculture that long term can not maintain fertility. can you plant cover crops on a semi-regular basis?

I figured it wouldn't be extremely accurate but for a ballpark figure do they give an somewhat accurate idea?

Since it's our yard, I don't think I would be able to plant cover crops periodically. I'm hoping once a good layer of compost is down, the biology will pick up. It's just basically red clay dust now so I'm pretty sure it's pretty lacking in all of the biological factors to create healthy soil.

"I figured it wouldn't be extremely accurate but for a ballpark figure do they give an somewhat accurate idea?"

Not even close :-( If you think about it, why would some little home test kit provide results similar to what is being generated by a professional soil lab? How can dunking some sort of capsule into a soil solution compare to what soil scientists derive from mass spectrometers and all the other bells and whistles and expensive equipment at their disposal? In fact, many soil testing labs do not even test for N at all simply because it is nearly impossible to pin down to an accurate level!! Expecting a home test kit to provide any sort of reasonably accurate result is just wishful thinking!

If it is just a lawn, top dressing with compost will certainly not hurt. But it may not produce many visible results either. Compost is just too low in nutrients to provide much of a response. See how well it does this season and consider having a professional test done in the fall or early next spring if it doesn't meet your expectations. btw, clay soils tend to be quite nutrient dense - that is perhaps their primary redeeming feature :-)

I'm not terribly concerned with immediate results, I just want the soil to be healthy again. Without synthetic fertilizers.

Since you say it's red clay dust now, you should worry less about nutrients to begin with. Adding compost as a mulch, or a bunch of compost plus other mulches (leaves, wood chips, whatever) on top, will help build up some organic matter and soil life in there. You may want to dig some of this in, or you may not, depending on laziness - a whatever you put down will compost in place and start things along. Lots of threads here about how to find compost in large amounts.

You can also ask around or noodle on the web for cover crops. They won't necessarily be a lawn, like grass, but if you're not looking for a lawn, mixed cover crops will help things along. A lot of these cover crops can just be cut periodically and left in place - they can be pleasant enough to walk in/around - as long as you don't want it to be exactly like a lawn (choose and it may end up looking like a field). Some examples are various types of clover, things like rye, buckwheat, mixed wildflowers. Someone here swears by daikon or tiller radishes (put down deep roots which help the soil). If you look for things called green manure they may help with nutrients in long term.

I was overseeding my lawn (adding lawn seed to patchy areas) a few weeks ago and when I ordered, a got a bunch of different things like clover, lupine, tillage radishes, and a few other things - mainly for road-edges outside my property. I concentrated on ones that I could buy cheap - most of the plants considered green manures that are used in agriculture are inexpensive in quantity. It's a bit of an experiment, if they don't grow in my soil, I won't be out much. If you buy/plant whatever is used locally, better chance they'll grow and help.

I do think the biggest issue that area of lawn has is a lack of organic matter, its just dusty ground there in the baregion spots. 90% chance it's always,going to be just grass lawn so I don't really need to obsess about NPK levels but I though something my be wrong based on the home test kit. But I think that overall, a good coating of compost once a year will be enough to make it a decent area. I'll probably throw some clover in when I reseed it next year so the bees have something but I'll look into other cover crops as,well. Thanks a lot!

the problem with compost is that the really nutritious organic matter is nearly gone. you spend money to buy something that will need to be replaced periodically. but given your constraints, I guess that is the only choice.

A comment about home test kits verse lab results. Having worked in a laboratory for most of my life I think the biggest difference between the 100k instrument in the lab and the home test kit is the method precision. As an example your home test kit may give you 20ppm K, and the lab 16ppm. The lab method precision is probable +/- 10% of the value. The home test kit may be twice that. As you can see 20+/-4ppm (16 - 24ppm) and 15+/-1.5 (14.5 - 17.5) are statistically the same number, or they are probably the same number.

As mentioned the method of taking the sample and the extraction of the material being tested can make a big difference in the actual value obtained in the above analysis. In traditional wet chemistry, by change the assay conditions, using complexing agents, and the method of extraction you could either see all of a molecule in a specific analyses, or see nothing.

Test method can affect the results considerably. A good example of this is Arsenic, In the late 1950's environmental arsenic was tested using a color metric method. About this time the techniques to assay arsenic by use atomic absorption were developed. This meant that water from Lake Eire could be assayed by the colormetric method which had a detection limit of about 0.5 ppms and no arsenic was found. The very same sample could be analyzed by atomic absorption and find 300ppb arsenic, which got every body excited.

So you're saying instead of composting my banana peels, coffee grounds etc, I would be better off just throwing them straight out in the yard? Do critters like to make off with such things? And if thats,the case, why is compost called "black gold"?

So does that mean if my test kit says I'm low on X, I really am? Or most likely am anyway. By what degree I guess isn't terribly important for simple lawn grass though.

"So you're saying instead of composting my banana peels, coffee grounds etc, I would be better off just throwing them straight out in the yard? "

No, it is not better :-) And yes, it would attract all manner of critters looking for a free lunch! There is a recognized and strong benefit of using a mixed ingredient compost - anyone that states otherwise, just doesn't understand compost!! Since it takes a very long time for compost to be completely "finished' and all the OM used up (that is what is called humus and it takes years for that to be the end result), you will still realize the increase in soil biology from its application. As well as moderate nutrient dispersal. Not to mention what compost does for soil texture and friability.

But it's OK to lay it before its all the way done? Mine is still pretty carbon heavy so not as fast as some piles but it's still composting very well. The leaves just aren't breaking down so by fall, I will have lots of soil but still some unbroken down leaves.

Compost is always applied before it is "all the way done" - that's what makes it compost and not humus :-) You can screen it or not as you wish to remove any large identifiable chunks or pieces if you want a finer texture. Just dump the larger stuff back into the compost to 'cook' and break down awhile longer.

Awesome, thanks!

I think what's being brought out is that organic material is generally better than organic matter... where, and when appropriate. Leaves, coffee grounds, grass clippings, banana peels... are examples of organic materials. These, when broken down by soil life, become organic matter. The difference between the 2 is what happens to the constituent matter as it decomposes into the environment.

When a banana peel is eaten by a worm, for example, the worm defecates. That casting is rich in available nutrients. However, those nutrients are not only available to plants, they are available to many, many forms of flora and fauna. And... such constituents are also often water-soluble. They are easily washed away with rain and irrigation. To compound the issue, some of those constituent nutrients combine with other elements and molecules into gaseous states and evaporate. The resulting organic matter (the decomposed state of organic materials - compost for example) does not have the same constituent profile as it had before decomposition. Compost can be very nutrient-rich, but unless its production carefully controlled, it's not always the best way to get nutrients directly to plants in a measured way to satisfy - in the short term - what plants and healthy soils need to establish an optimum environment.

As you bring out, just tossing banana peels is not an appropriate way to incorporate organic materials. However... mowing over your fall leaves and chopping them into very tiny pieces on a crisply-dry autumn day will indeed optimize the incorporation potential of that organic material. The material will decompose in situ, and while you'll lose some of the constituent elements to gassing-, and run-off, the lawn will retain as much as it is capable. As the soil health improves, the more it will retain.

So... leaves can be mulched in place by running over them with a lawn mower on a dry day. Grass clippings should be treated the same way... mulched in place. Coffee grounds can be broadcast by hand, or with a broadcaster (there is a manual version, and one you push that's really made for fertilizing and seeding, but I'm sure it could be used for coffee grounds - though tossing them by hand is often good enough.) Look for other such materials that can be mulched without unsightly results. And, in many cases, especially with lawns, sometimes you just cannot escape the fact that fertilizer is needed. It doesn't have to be synthetic, but if you send off a soil sample to a lab, and it comes back that you need x and y, but you're high in z, then fertilizer is really the only way to ensure precision. If you just want to get close, then use the appropriate organic materials, and then supplement a couple times a year with compost.

@david: didn't realise you were referring to a portion of your lawn that is just bare. My own bias is that many lawns / yards have portions where grass doesn't grow well. If you're not trying to do a perfect croquet lawn, I think it works better to find something that grows well enough there rather than fighting it. You can still use compost and mulch, improve the soil and try again later. It sounds more like a soil structure issue - lack of organic material and soil life - rather than nutrients. You may find you like some other plants there better anyway.

Well, it's not totally bare, just mostly. We want grass but we'll see how a year of repairing the soil goes first

How big is the bare patch?

The bare patches are fairly small, a foot or two each but they cover an area that's maybe 70ft x 70ft. It's just really thin or no grass all over it. But some weeds do grow

Is it possible that the bare/weedy patches are compacted? Weeds thrive in compacted soil where turf grass refuses to grow. If that's the case, your lawn soil might benefit from aeration.

How many of these bare patches? Or the whole area is poor and some are patchier than others? I think there's a lawn forum here; might want to ask there. It may also help to put some info about what you've been doing lawn-care wise before this, how long the lawn has been there, etc. To me, it sounds like more of a soil health issue overalll.

yes, unfinished compost is much better than finished. It has twice as much carbon, twice as much nitrogen, and supports many more bacteria and earthworms because it contains much more bio-chemical energy. It will make your yard much more fertile, because the worms will aerate the soil, pull in grass clippings and render them into manure, and the bacteria will unlock the P that you want from the organic P in the soil. you don't have to do anything except provide them with food. Compost is not food, it is the remnant of food that was eaten elsewhere, and sometimes does not even have bacteria. it has no fungi either.

This why I bury everything. In particular rotten logs provide many years of fertility because being so large, they decay slowly, but a single burial of kitchen scraps will render the soil fertile enough. For my perennials, one single trash in 2008 can buried in a 12X12 flowerbed turned it into a jungle. The 3 feet annual growth, left there to decay in winter, then provides a stable input. The soil around it is terrible, very similar to yours (alkaline, no P, decent K/Mg). In the garden, one of the 21 beds got no compost, terrible soil, but one trash can in 2014 turned it the same as the other beds. it does have a lot of perennial chicory plants, and that helps too, because few plants improve the soil more.

Compost is gold only when compared to powders that you can find at Home Depot. It has never happened that you got your workers to work without paying them, or at least giving them food. you can't improve the soil yourself, you have to find a way to bring them in.

I strongly doubt the claim that compost has no fungi. Source? And while I suppose it's possible that it sometimes does not have bacteria (like if someone were to sterilize it), compost without bacteria would be highly unusual.

Fine if someone wants to claim not enough or not the right kind or that uncomposted 'raw' materials are better, but that's a different claim entirely.

So far I have,done anything to it. I built a few boxes for tomatoes last year so,there are a few squares with remnants of the soil but it's untouched otherwise. The whole thing is bad just some areas are,worse than others. When I mow over there,to beat the,weeds back, when I turn the mower the wheels dig down into the dirt so it seems theres,very little structure there. I think I'm going to try adding organic matter to see if that is what the main issue is.

Again, you might want to pose questions on lawn forum. The problem you face, I think, is that it's hard to dramatically improve soil by adding a lot of organic matter on existing lawn. Would help to test/check soil in a few areas by digging down and seeing what it looks like. Kimms has a handy home soil test primer that he posts here. Adding a lot of organic material on top will limit lawn growth if done all at once.

You could amend the whole area bit by bit, adding mulch / clippings etc on an ongoing basis, reseeding; could take years.

You could go all-in and start over on the whole area: till in lots and lots of organic material and either re-seed from scratch, or lay down sod.

If it were me, I'd start with a few areas and experiment, basically doing it bit by bit, do more in later periods of what works best. Till in a bunch of organic material (maybe burying wood) in two sections, seed one, sod another. Do some trench composting (bury food and other organic waste), fill back in and seed/sod on top (you may be able to lift and replace existing sod). Do some cover crops/other lawn seeds/top-dressed compost in other areas, try some tillage radishes or whatever in a few sections. This way you'd be doing it at your own speed, control expenses (including figuring out where to source materials easily, even for free), and your whole lawn/yard wouldn't be disrupted at once. When you figure out what works for you, repeat as necessary.

Of course, depends on your appetite for work, budget, and timeframe. Some folks would want to hire someone and do the whole thing at once and just re-sod; my only point of caution is that if you do that without improving the soil below, the sod could just fail to root well in the existing soil and you'd be back to square one in a year or two. Seeding might give you better chance to choose varieties to suit your conditions.

Small side note about the weeds: from the sounds of it, grass is thin because soil poor and the 'weeds' you're getting are just the plants that do (much) better in that soil. There's not much chance the lawn-grasses will outcompete the weeds in those conditions, so I'd worry about the soil first and the weeds later.

Find someone who knows turf. And is willing to help you where you are, not sell you on their methodology because they like it.

For instance, the first questions i had with your question went to issues of compaction and water holding/ frequency, not how to apply compost or planting of cover crops in lawn areas.

I would posit you don't know your soil fertility. You may have other problems that you perceive as poor fertility, ie "bad soil", but you are basically like Sgt. Schultz right now: You know nothing.

Get a proper soil test. It will have a lot more info than just nutrient analysis.

I will probably pick the worst spots and start focusing on the organics to see if I can improve the soil health and apply what works best to other areas and try to fill in the whole area. Fortunately I have a pretty steady supply of coffee grounds and other stuff I can add directly to the dirt.

cold compost has some bacteria. it will have no living fungi since fungi have structure that will be destroyed with handling. it may have some spores depending on soil contact and exposure during spore season.

hot compost has virtually no fungi and many fewer bacteria, since the hot temps sterilize it. if you compost in place (trenching), all the chemicals and all the bacteria stay where they are. fungi develop in place, eating nut shells, clippings and leftover fibers (such as celery strings). you will both have fungi and their spores. Most important, you will have mycorrhizae from the soil, since they can not live in a compost pile.

I doubt that transporting organic matter from the place of composting to the place of application is neutral towards the bacteria, when you spread compost it will solarize, it can not be good for any critters. what are we debating here, the new laws of nature according to the composting crowd? it feels like talking to children.

If you can get coffee grounds, they're loose enough that you can probably apply quite a bit without 'smothering' the grass. Dont' know if it would be enough but a good start. Good luck. If you're not in a rush, you'll eventually get there ).

BTW don't know about your conditions but I find mulched leaves applied before snowfall can be laid on pretty thick (within reason of course), grass when it comes up will not even notice them. Opportunity to put more on.

"Feels like talking to children?" Wow, talk about condescending.

Since you've decided to be offensive, perhaps you could show your sources.

As it is, you've actually not denied that there will be both bacteria and fungi (at minimum spores), just changed the terms to say not the right bacteria or not fungi in the form you think is important or qualified to say not in hot compost.

I won't say what it feels like talking to, in interests of civility.

If it feels like talking to children, it's probably best to just stay out of the conversation.

It will all be slow but I can apply a few things now and come fall, we have tons of leaves in the yard I can mulch and drop on. Not much snow though.

"If it feels like talking to children, it's probably best to just stay out of the conversation."

In compete agreement!! If compost were as biologically 'dead' as some appear to assume, then it would not continue to break down and decompose, which it will do for many years. And it would not be imported by the ton to clean up contaminated soils, like it was done after Hurricane Katrina. It is the microorganisms it contains that accomplish that decontamination, not just fluffy OM soaking up an oil spill!! And there are thermophilic microbes that thrive at high temps and are the workhorses of hot composting.....that's what makes it hot!! If there are hundreds of millions of microbes and yards to miles of fungal hyphae in just a gram of plain ole garden 'dirt' with minimal OM, think how many more there are in a rich, edible smorgasbord of partially decomposed compost!!

I'd suggest someone do a bit more research before making such specious, unfounded and unsupported statements - their composting knowledge base is sorely deficient :-)

try to also rebut the arguments. you can't improve on nature. here is a telegraphic summary: no myc., fewer bacteria, no fungi, fewer spores, much lower energy, no food for earthworms. application of compost depletes the biology. and all this costs money and effort.

the OP can check his progress by just counting worms in a shovelful. you don't need to take my words, just make a side-to-side comp. anyhow, the way I improved my scraggly lawn: I planted rye and clover in september. Clover perennialized. Rye does not get tall in poor soil, and anyway I terminated it by mowing in May. If i did not have a black walnut, I would have added also species that are sensitive to BW but winterkill. Rye makes no great roots, but still far deeper than grass, leaving the physical channels that are needed for fertility.

I can probably dig 10 shovels full in that areas now and I'd be surprised if I found more than a few worms. They may be there but if they are, they're scarce

anyhow, sorry if I offended anyone. I am a long time poster and rarely blow up, but when i see posts that ignore physical, chemical and biological principles, I will occasionally say some things. I thought double-thinkers would be a worse insult than children, so I went that way. if you feel I should be treated unpolitely go ahead, it is OK for me.

I never said it depletes anything. of course it does not, and brings in some nutrients. I just said it is not optimal, generally inferior, in costs, results and manpower.

Whether 'compost' or uncomposted or partially composted, most of the suggestions here are that clearly more organic material is needed to improve the soil. Most of these suggestions don't really contradict each other, it's just what the OP has appetite for and can use practically in his situation.

Although this started with a question about nutrients, I don't think nutrients are the core of the issue - it's soil. More organic material in whatever form/volume (and how to incorporate) is still the first order of business, he has plenty of options now.

try to also rebut the arguments. you can't improve on nature. here is a telegraphic summary: no myc., fewer bacteria, no fungi, fewer spores, much lower energy, no food for earthworms. application of compost depletes the biology. and all this costs money and effort.

Just saying, you did actually say it depletes the biology.

But yes, for now I will focus on OM and let the nutrients do what they will. If I have problems after the soil is healthy again, I'll revisit the nutrient issue but for lawn grass, I don't think it will end up being a big problem

I'm going to plant some rye there this,fall and hope that helps next spring.

it depletes the biology in the organic matter, not in the soil. right now you have very little- in the soil.

I will summarize what I did to rejuvenate my lawn. First winter I seeded rye and clover in the most barren parts as an experiment. The rye grew to about one foot before being terminated (two movings). Find roots of rye below (they are much deeper than grass, although of course they don't get to 8 ft in clay at half development). This was enough to have good grass growth, not everywhere, specially in some shady parts. One barren flowerbed in shade by the house has been covered with vegetation (some re-seeding flowers) ever since.

http://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/01aglibrary/010139fieldcroproots/010139toc.html

The next winter (september actually) I planted new grass, changing the seed mix from fescue to ryegrass (not related to rye, but the commercial species with deepest roots, also cheapest) and reseeded also with clover, rye, and arugula (of which I had a large bag that I wanted to get rid of). Now the lawn is green, except in some bald spots where I put manure, and it matted, blocking all germination in spring (seeding was done in september, manure spreading during the Xmas period). Of course manure is good, it is just a seed suffocation problem that will go away on its own (also in a residential area apply manure only in deep winter).

Note that I am the one suggesting the least work, and the least money. You have to be patient but you will see the year to year improvements with your own eyes. A lawn is an unsustainable artificial ecosystem, but you can delay the applications of compost or fertilizer that are needed to keep it going by having deeper roots. or you can come closer to eliminating applications if you accept periodical cover crops. Once again i suggest you test some parts (I did start with parts that were not only barren but received no foot traffic), look at the plants, look at the soil, at the earthworms, and form your own opinion.

Even if all that is true, I'd like to know how it's relevant to a guy trying to repair bare spots in a lawn in dusty clay. He's not going to make a field of decomposing banana peels in his back yard.

It cannot be denied that compost helps soil in many ways, so if I was him I'd be adding compost. Either to the bare spots, or better yet, layer it over the entire lawn with a compost spreader. A half inch in spring and fall. More for the bad spots if you want.

I have some spots at my rural mostly wooded property that just won't grow lawn. Either the clay is too bad or too much shade. I finally gave up and rather than have mud around my building, I laid down cedar branches and twigs to keep things from eroding, and covered it all with wood chips for a couple years. When weeds start to grow I'll know there's more healthy soil down there. In the meantime I can walk on it. If you have any areas like that, or that you want to turn into gardens, just mulch or make sheet compost 'piles' over them.

And if your home soil test says you've got nutrient issues, get a lab test to confirm it. Not surprising to see low P in a clay - it sticks like mad even if there is much P there.