"BTW - history completely contradicts your belief in soil testing. Almost nobody gets soil tests now and they weren't even available to homeowners until recently. Like a lot of modern technology, it can be a useful tool. However, people got along just fine without them in the not to distant past." What does that even mean? History contradicts your belief in soil testing? How does history contradict a belief in soil testing? That sentence is an example of making up something that sounds intelligent but has no basis in fact. Soil testing is an extremely important part of all the crops growing in this country. If we had a better understanding of soil science earlier in the 20th century then the dust bowl probably wouldn't have happened, or at least it wouldn't have been so bad. Turfgrass, like any crop, has its ideal soil conditions. The closer you can get to the ideal, the healthier the grass. How would you know if you need lime? Let's say you need lime, which one would you use? What about a phosphorus deficiency. Most fertilizers have little P, so are you supposed to guess if you have deficiencies? Andy's plan is the right way to do it. Sure you can do a renovation by omitting steps, but if you want the best results you will do it the right way. Rushing it will usually result in doing it again next fall.

so, tom, i guess i'm saying... NOW. 10-4 buddy, guess I'll start them tomorrow afternoon when I get home :-) The ones I grew with great success last year were started late October. I'm a bit further south, though, but I think it wouldn't be too very different. Susie, even tho you're a lot farther south we're in virtually the same climate, right here off Tampa Bay I get NO frost...I'm going to try some now and if the bugs get them I'll start again at the end of October. I received the Veronica seeds, thanks! I'll start some of them too :-) Tom

I'll be contrary and say I'm against keeping that cabinet. The "old" cabinet is a hybrid from the (I'd say 50's-60's) previous renovation and the original cabinet. The bottom is original and the top has clutzy replacement doors instead of the (probably) of inset doors, the new doors were probably an attempt to blend the new cabinets with the old. The kitchen probably had one of those long wall sinks with integral drainboards in that area and the photos show the newly improved arrangement with only one small full depth base cabinet - the sink base. If you keep it, I think you can't place the dishwasher where you've drawn it - I don't think you have even 18" for a dw between where a farm sink cabinet would be and the edge of the antique base cabinet. You already know that its height from the countertop prevents you from using that counter space for anything but storage. If you keep it, you might look for new doors for it and a better companion cabinet for the other side of the sink window. The wall cabinet there looks like a replacement ir later addition anyway. Doing the return (making the little "L" on the dining room side) doesn't actually get you much - you lose more of the easy storage in the corner, the upper becomes more difficult to use and you don't really gain USEFUL counterspace because you can't use the counter in the corner. A lot of this will have different charateristics than it does now because you're much further away from that upper when you use standard size cabinets. The "L" prevents changing the dw to the left side of the sink - again I think that's necessary if you want to save the antique cabinet. In what I drew, You can have the ref where drawn free standing or with a small pantry that opens towards the bathroom. If you choose to do a range in that location, the suggestion above for an antique range is a good one - craig's list sometimes has chambers and others listed for baltimore that work and are reasonable. The issue with an unrestored antique range is SAFTEY. They sometimes have problems with gas leaks, rust or ovens that don't work right. You could also maybe do the 40" Frigidaire for something that feels more like an older style. Lots more cash than that gets you a restored antique range. Some more cash gets you something really stylish like this bert. At about that level of pricing, you can just reach a pro style range like an american or blue star. In any event, What you can't do is keep that partly old cabinet and "recounter" it deeper, put a counter in front of the window and expect to be able to reach inside it on either the uppers or the lowers (without crawling). By increasing the depth of the counter, you're increasing your distance from the upper and you won't be able to reach as well as you could before. You also won't be able to use either of the drawers because of the extended depth of the counter. I had to laugh about the wall fan (I have one). Isn't your kitchen greasy? Don't you spend time cleaning the grease off those pipes and the exhaust fan itself? Don't you find kinda gory dust on the ceiling fan - dust that clumps up because of the grease? Little flecks of greasy stuff on the walls and cabinets that are nearly impossible to clean off? Here is a link that might be useful: Frigidaire range

Tabs, tabs, tabs! I usually have multiple tabs open, including Gmail. When I open the main forum page here I open all the threads that I want to read in separate tabs and close each one as I finish that thread. If I'm shopping on Amazon, Zappos, etc. I open each item that I want to look at in a separate tab. That makes it easy to go back and forth while I'm comparing them