How much soil do you need and to what address?

Thanks Stush! There are indeed so many variables that affect plant health like you mentioned, but I believe to test all of them that would be over-over-thinking ;) Maybe sometime after my water retention tests, I'll test the pH of all the mixes. Would you be interested in sending over a mix you use? I'm sure alot of people here would really appreciate seeing the substrate properties for a grower who has had as much success with Sansevierias as you have. If not, it's totally cool.

woodnative, let me send you a PM with all the details. I'll only need a cup (240 mL of volume) of each individual sample, however many you wish to send. Thanks for taking part!

edit: woodnative, It seems I can't message you. I just changed my messaging settings so anyone can now PM me, so if you could message me, I'll send you the details. Thanks.

I think that may be my biggest problem. My soil is constantly changing. I'm going back to just potting soil with some perlite added. My mix for aloes are different and I get them all mixed up. My mix for aloes/haworthias is 1/2 to 3/4 granite chips called poultry grit. Some euphorbias I have in pure granite chips while another one in garden soil high in clay. I use alfalfa pills added to the water in spring to boost growth. I used to use compost tea but my wife hates the smell. That was outside during the summer. Imagine if used inside during winter! Smells like an old barnyard. Loaded with the micros needed for plant health.

I'm no plants man. Every nice looking plant I own is half dozen failures. Most times I know I screwed up.

Hey Snek, I feel like we're all constantly learning from our soil compositions. I'd like to partake in your little experiment as well.

Robdb8, that's great!

That makes three users who are sending in samples for testing. Send me a PM, and I can give you more details regarding sending in the samples.

Well, I must chime in and say -- NO, Stush, you are indeed a plants man. I have learned SO much from reading your posts, especially in the Sans forum. But I must also agree with you about the soil mix changing constantly, because that's something I have done too, and not always with stellar results.

I have also read LOTS of Rina's posts where she says C/S soil and perlite, C/S soil and perlite over and over. Like you, I am beginning to go back to that for Sans. For me, the Sans that do best are in that combo, usually with a handful of manna pro poultry grit thrown in. One of the biggest challenges, I think, is learning from each other while "adjusting" for all our different locations and climates. I am always trying to "adjust" for my own Florida growing conditions, and not always successfully, I must admit. But the good thing is -- we ALL try. We are all plants people in our efforts.

I got some fresh mix made up over the weekend. Hopefully will get it in the mail to you the next day or so.

fantastic! Thanks alot.

The soil is in the mail!! LOL!

Would you like to include the standard "Miracle-Gro Cactus and Succulent" mix that is sold everywhere? And/or that plus equal amounts of perlite? The only caveat is that it would probably have to be wetted first. IF it is too dried out the peat will be hydrophobic initially so you may have to modify your method a little.

I plan on including at least one standard cactus succulent mix, either miracle grow or hoffman, or espoma, as well as a mix of one of these and perlite. Maybe more if I can get my hands on more of the commercially available ones. I feel like this data would be most useful to the community, since it represents what's most readily available to most people.

I would definitely have to wet it first though, which isn't a problem, because I'm looking at how quickly water evaporates from these mediums after saturation.

Interesting thread. I'm starting to learn about this stuff. Here are some of the things I've been thinking about, including water retention as well as some other factors.

You've probably read some of Tapla's threads on his 1:1:1 Al's Gritty Mix. If I recall, he said that granite serves to hold small amounts of water on its exterior: as those drops evaporate, they create humidity for roots, and offer more opportunity for the other ingredients - turface and pine bark - to absorb more water. If you look closely at the surface of the granite, it has indentations and groves (concave areas) that could serve to "cup" beads of water, or, as the water dries, air pockets for aeration and eventually for roots to fill in.

Conversely, turface tends to have more outwardly rounded edges that may be less prone to hold water on the surface or create pockets for aeration and root growth. Due to this, the water that turface holds is within it rather than on the surface, primarily, and could leave fewer spaces for aeration or roots. Consequently, a critique of turface is that (a) there is a risk of lower aeration than some other media, (b) that it absorbs and holds water, but doesn't release it back to the roots as well as some other media, and (c) that it doesn't have the porosity of akadama to allow fine roots to grow into it, breaking it down over time, promoting finer and finer feeder roots. Having said that, I use and like turface, and I'm experimenting with using it solely without other ingredients.

Addressing the critiques of turface... As far as (a) aeration, it is well-draining and allowing liquid to flow through it naturally sucks fresh air into the pockets between the turface fragments - I think good sifting removes enough fine turface to still allow good air pockets and space for roots. Regarding (b) holding onto and not releasing water, your statistics indicate it does release water at a comparable rate compared to other media - I like your idea of gathering more data over time. And finally, regarding it's (c) porosity, I get nice fine root growth in my plants with gritty mix - I'm not expert and can't say if it is comparable to akadama in the long run, but I've also see trees die because the akadama looks and gritty on the surface, but only inches below, at the base of the bonsai pot, it is like a brick: won't let water in, and once it gets wet, doesn't want to let water out. Maybe someday I will want to try akadama (despite it's price), but for now, I lean toward media that doesn't break down as readily over time.

Lots of good points and interesting perspectives. Snek Lover how is the experiment coming along? Which soil mixes will you be using?

I'm waiting for one more sample, and I'm going out of town the weekend of Mother's day. I should be able to conduct the experiment the weekend after that!

Yes! I am waiting too!! : )

Hi everyone!

My apologies with the lack of communication. Life has proven to be very hectic recently. Things are finally starting to settle down at work (I teach at a high school), but when I tried to start the experiment last week, the scale I was trying to use seemed to be broken. I just ordered a new scale off of amazon, and am as anxious as all of you to get this started. Sorry we've had to wait so long!

I just thought about something the other day when I was watering, I thought I should at least throw it out there. Are you going to compare clay vs. plastic containers as well? Considering clay pots absorb a lot of excess water, this would change the playing field a good bit. Just curious!

This is definitely something I was considering, but I don't have enough small clay pots. Considering how long it has taken me to get started, I think I'm going to keep it simple and start with plastic first.

Any updates Snek? School is out!! Things are heating up outside......all my Sans are outside and will enjoy the next 2-3 months before they have to be shuffled back. Seems when they are outside and in 90 degree weather it is almost impossible to overwater.

If over watering would kill them, then all my sans would be toast. We have had the most rain this year in any other year in memory. I know Woodnative would agree. I am loosing some Euphorbias to this down poring.

I'll make a separate post with all of the results. Thanks for everyone who sent in samples! (the samples from Grace, Woodnative, Rob are on the right; the left side is various combinations of bark, turface, and granite)

Good to see! Look forward to the seeing the "unexpected results"!! How are your hahnis??

The unexpected results are that the 1:1:1 with bark turface, granite holds LESS water than the 1:0:2, a bark and granite mix with no turface, even though in isolation, the turface holds much more water. I might have to redo the gritty mixes, but we'll see when they completely dry out.

My hahniis are doing great. The silver frost you sent hasn't grown any more leaves, but it just sent out a pup! It's the smallest hahnii I've ever had that has sent out a pup. I think the "mother plant" is only 2 inches tall.

Awesome!! I/we look forward to the full set of results!!

Ahh, science! I'll eagerly look forward to how this unfolds.
From my limited experience, I've had fantastic results with my 1:1:1 for my Sans. and Jades, seemingly good results with other succulents and most everything else.

A good number of the samples after a week are now lighter than their dry weight initially. I'm going to wait until all the samples are completely dry until I publish the results. A quick preview though: Peat based mixes absorbed more water than turface, but turface held onto water longer.

Looking forward to it Snek!!

I'm going back to just potting soil with some perlite added.

This is what I'm planning to use. My orchids have a less organic growing media, but the cacti/succulents, African Violets and everything else have potting soil plus perlite and have been doing well indoors.

Snek Lover do we have final results?

I'm going to try to do a pictorial of my next experiment. I got orchid mix and small orchiata pine bark, both from RepotMe. I'm going to mix a little of each, and plant some Hahniis in them. I just find it difficult to post pictures now that the option is not available from my phone. The Hahniis that I got from GlassHouseWorks were beautiful until I placed them in an all gritty mix, and then promptly dessicated even though I watered very frequently. So for me at least, gritty mixes and Hahniis don't mix

Manuel I agree. Although some folks have great success with those gritty mixes they are not for me. Trifasciata types in particular seem to like some moisture. I am still adjusting to Houzz but I see the “photo” option below the box I am typing in on my phone.

I am using composted grass clippings (several years old) 75% to perlite or grit. I also add a bit of bone meal and a few Alafia pills to the mix. Getting double growth out of my hahnii. Cutting down on gritty mix.

So far if nothing goes wrong, this is going to be my best year ever for my sans. My other stock is out in this over wet summer and just hanging on. My sans are in my covered porch with morning sun. All my tall sans are out in the weather but seem to be handling it well.

snek lover............almost time for classes to start again.................just a prod for the final results!! We are looking forward to it!

Attached are all the data.

For each of these samples, liberally poured water into the cups until copious amounts of water drained from the bottom. (This isn't the most realistic watering scenario, but I wanted to see the full saturation point of how a top down watering method would work)

I then weighed each sample at the given time intervals. For the gritty mixes, given the volume of the cups, I found that 10g of water was a point so low, that I would consider it "dry" (when the turface reached 10g, it looked very light in color) For the peat based mixes, when they had around 25g of water, they appeared slightly damp. I used that as a baseline, and marked the chart orange on the times these relative thresholds were reached to give a sense of when one would have to water the pot ASSUMING THERE ISN'T A PLANT drinking water. You should be watering sooner than this, (although, using a 1-1-1, I've been watering my Hahnii's once a week. Maybe I should be doing so more often?)

For those of you whose samples I tested, let me know if my data seems to support what you've experienced yourselves.

Feel free to use this data how you want. Those in hot and dry climates might want to opt for a medium that retains the most water for the longest. Those in humid cold climates, might opt for the opposite.

I'm still going to avoid peat mixtures, just because it's so hard to re-saturate them if they dry out. And in my NYC climate, I'm going to stick with 1-1-1 for now, at least for Sansevieria.

Maybe I should just make a new post with all the results in detail with graphs? What do you guys think?

Looks good. I think it would be nice to see the results in their own post too. I will have to look at it closer.

Once a week? Depends on so many things. I never water on a schedule.......just as they need it...........keeping them damper in summer (longer days, warm temps, actively growing) and dryer in winter. Even in winter, those hahnis lucky enough to be on my kitchen window are pretty dry each week when there is decent sun. Right now my plants are outside for the summer. In this hot weather they would be happy if I flood them with the hose (or rain) every day or two!

Somehow missed this thread, interesting stuff although I'm a simple trial and error guy. I don't care for the gritty mixes, I think for most people almost any commercial mix with 50% or more perlite added will grow good sansevierias. I exclude the heavy dirt-type so-called 'potting soil'.

Like Stush, I thought this was way over-thinking soil mixes. But the results are interesting and do give some guidance on materials.

Snek Lover, the mix you decided to stay with for now is bark, Turface and granite grit in 1-1-1? Is the bark sifted to a certain size?

Stush, am I right that you're using 75% composed grass clippings to 25% perlite? Interesting!

Chris, what is the 'garden soil' you mentioned using in your mix? Commercially sold?

Turface holds far too much moisture for my conditions, literally every sans I've put in a Turface mix has eventually developed rotted roots, between 50 and 100 plants. Other ingredients were bark, perlite, some granite, and minor experimenting with peat and MG. Too bad pumice is only available in quantity in the far west.

Stush and Chris, your sans are stunning! I am envious!

Russ

Thanks for that info Chris. How big a part is the soil to the total mix? Also, is the commercial mix a peat-based one, like MG? A friend grows sans in 7 parts perlite and 3 parts MG moisture control... keeps it simple. I will try a few sans in a facsimile of your mix, your results are fantastic. As you said, results can vary, but I'm always looking for that perfect mix.

Are you using any kind of fungicide or other sprays on a regular, scheduled basis? Sorry for picking your brain, I've had a decline in success with Hahnii's in recent years and trying get back to growing them like you and Stush.

Thanks, Russ

Russ-

I usually use about 1/2 MG cactus mix OR potting soil, maybe 30% perlite, 20% or so garden soil or compost, and sometimes a little bit of coarse sand or bone meal or such added...............varies a little each time. I just feel better adding a bit of "real" soil. I always think of those mass produced 'Golden hahnis' growing in practically pure peat that show up the big box stores. For some grower it is profitable to and multiply these in this mix for wholesale....probably in a very warm and moist climate/greenhouse.

Interesting results! I've been using turface all summer on multiple indoor and outdoor plants, as well as for propogating cuttings. All plants are doing better with Turface than 1:1:1 Gritty Mix. When I started using gritty mix, it way outperformed potting soil combined with any amount of perlite, but I'm also sure I've improved other aspects of my plant care since then. I plan to transition other plants from gritty mix to turface as they need repotting.

One thing I noticed about turface and other gritty potting medium is that the top dries much more quickly than the bottom. Consequently, no roots grow in the upper portion of the pot; especially since I have a lot of bonsai pots, that is a high percentage of essentially unused soil and wasted space. I'm experimenting with growing moss on top of the turface. I finely chopped a thin layer of sphagnum moss and mixed it with live moss I collected. I spread it over the surface of the plants, and I'm misting 10-seconds every 2-hours to grow moss. I'm trying this on plants that don't need to go dormant, so the moss can continue to grow over winter, then I will try doing it with deciduous plants next spring (crepe myrtle, ficus carica). I noticed that simply placing a chunk of moss on the turface helped by bouganvillea grow roots right up to the surface.

Russ, thanks but I had my share of failures as well. I think mix is very important and it varies by each area where you live and how you treat your sans. Haws are different and so are agaves and aloes. Jades as so funny that I some times keep them in pure grit. Every time I buy a hahnii it is in peat and when I de-pot it, it has a complete root system all thru the pot. I never get that result in gritty mixes. A friend who mastered in horticulture told me that clay is the best soil for plants but roots can't get enough air to use all the nutrients in it. Also the plants only absorb nutrients into their roots thru bacteria growing between soil and roots. It's the bacteria that does the work just like in our own stomachs.

That said, I see why Chris use of garden soil is useful. Also explains Tiffany's in the ground growth of her sans in summer.

I just started using well composted clippings in my mixes. Still use some granite grit for air and drainage. Also add some bone meal and alfalfa meal.

Snek, That was an exhausting and well thought out job you did. We all thank you.

Jon, it sounds like you're using Turface as a potting soil, rather than as an additive in a mix. If so, talk about keeping it simple. I stopped using Turface years ago and don't recall if it has dust in the bag, do you rinse or screen for size?

Determining your actual success with 'gritty mix', you mentioned 'improved other aspects of my plant care'. Ever since 'gritty mix' has become popular I've thought that much of the success new users have with it might really be due to greatly increased attention to the needs of their plants, rather than qualities of the mix. Increased interest, checking plants more often and correcting issues immediately equals better plants, regardless of the medium.

Please post more conclusions as you come to them.

Russ

Chris, thanks once again for the info. I could try compost but wouldn't dare use soil from the ground here in Florida, it's loaded with root knot nematodes. No substitute for good, black dirt with a lot of organics for healthy plants, I remember the old Innes mixes from long ago.

Commercial growers of sans have the process down with growing in nearly pure peat moss, and such a small amount of it. I'm sure it's all automated, and as you said, in warm, humid environments. Watering must be perfectly timed, any rotted roots we find at point of purchase has occurred after it hit the store.

Off subject, your philo "oligospermum" replacement is alive and well and propagated often, I'm bummed that I lost the original. Did we agree that the replacement is not the same species? I'm not sure I have pics of the original, do you?

Russ

Stush, in spite of losses, you are a master grower. Trying to understand your mix, what is the primary ingredient... what do you start with and then add to?

Russ

Hey Russ - yes, I like not only the outcome of the turface, but the simplicity! I can order a 50 pound bag and it will be enough for a couple years I think. I do filter using a mesh strainer - I know some folks get really technical and use bonsai sifters, but I haven't felt the need thus far. I separate coarse material for relatively mature plants and the fines are used for cuttings. Some cuttings, I use unsifted turface, such as jades: I figured they need the fines to start rooting, but need more drainage than the average cutting. I haven't lost a single jade cutting using this approach. I have some azalea cuttings, euonymous, and bougainvillea that are all doing well in turface fines, simply sitting on my front porch (no extra cover for humidity, getting dappled morning sun).

My Fernwood (or japonica) sans put out a lot of new growth including a flower when I switched to turface from Gritty Mix, but I haven't tried my trifasciata or cylindrical in turface yet.

Al (Tapla) talks about gritty mix on other threads; I'm going to try to paraphrase, and hope I don't misinterpret anything. Bark is the organic that holds a lot of water, but is slow to abosrb, which is why we often soak bark before using it: otherwise all the water runs right over it and out the bottom. I believe one of his stated reasons for granite, beyond drainage without holding water for longer periods, is that it does hold drops of water on it's exterior after watering which can be absorbed more slowly by bark. AKA, it helps bark absorb/retain water. However, when I've repotted plants in gritty mix, I've found the top to be dry and sometimes more moisture (not humidity) in the lower parts of the pot, presumably because of water sitting on granite. Conversely with turface, it gets absorbed quickly, it doesn't sit in drops or pools, and it gets released slowly/consistently as humidity, which is what roots want: a combination of H20 and O2. That being said, Al is many fold more knowledgeable than me - these are just my musings as I spend way too much time watching my plants ;)

Regarding "improve other aspects of care," I think your right, people have more access to ideas and information, this thread being a great example. I look back on the way I approached my plants a few years ago while I was just starting to absorb information from this site and other sources, and I've made great improvements (with a long way to go still). So while I learned here that no amount of perlite will fix miracle grow (at some point, the plants simply fall out of the pot because the perlite is so light!), I also learned a lot of other things, so it is hard to compare the results I had with soil to the results I'm getting with turface.

Russ, I start with the compost. About 50% then add the rest. I only used it on a few plants. On my Sans. Asahi, I just added some compost and more alfalfa to the present soil and re-potted. They were a little beat up and in no time improved tremendously and pupped like crazy. I have at least 6 pups each plant.