Moses, Thank you so much for the excellent advice. I am trying to build up my soil just as you say, using only organic fertilizers like manure tea and also Mills Magic Mix. The Mills gets expensive though with all the roses I grow. Do you think that I should invest in a composting device? I know you can make your own composting bins, but I think my back might like it better if I had a bin that I can turn using a handle. Is it worth the money? Would I still need to fertilize as often if I used compost?

Dizzylizzy,

You will have to play it by ear, how much fertilizing is needed to keep the roses in top form with your compost. Your roses will show you by their growth responses.

Determine how much household compostable waste you will have, then look into getting an appropriately sized mechanical tumbling compost maker, saves time and your back! Get a small one if in doubt. Then if you find you have more compostable waste than the small one can handle, get another small one. Shop around for the most durable, easy to use, and most reasonably priced one you can get. It also keeps your compost off the ground so vermin, snakes, etc., don't haver access to it. You can also control the moisture level of your compost more accurately. Exposed to the elements a compost heap can get swamped in a heavy rainfall period.

You can get well aged/composted manure just about anywhere. It is one of the best soil amendments around. It does everything homemade compost does, with additional elements, microorganisms, and nutrients that only come from manure. Beware of ingredients. Some so called composted manure is mostly just topsoil with some aged manure mixed in. Look at the label, and ask questions at the nursery.

Moses

The type of compost bin you use is entirely up to your own preference, but if cost is an issue, the easiest, quickest, and cheapest way to get started is to use a bin made up of a length of woven wire fencing, that you can join on one side with clips, so it can be easily pulled away from the compost pile once you have filled the bin (then you can set the bin up next to the old pile, which is left to continue decaying until it is totally ready). Be sure to get a big enough length of wire to create a decent bin diameter (making it too skinny reduces the ability of the pile to get up to temperature, and it makes it dry out fast too). To fill this bin, use the "lasagna layering" method: http://ccetompkins.org/resources/compost-lasagna-layer-composting

If you have a situation in which there are a lot of urban critters invading your compost (here in Seattle we have rats, for example) or if you are really worried about space, or the look of large compost heaps, you can get a compost tumbler. Be warned: there are a lot of crappy, expensive compost bins on the market that do no better a job than a wire bin. Some of them are also more difficult to use. My favorite one (and also one of the most expensive) is a Scandinavian compost tumbler: https://www.joracomposters.com/

My parents have one of these. I love using it: it is very easy, and makes good compost. It has been a few years since I have looked into composting systems, and there may be a better system on the market now -- but this is the best one I am aware of.

Other things to consider when trying to decide on a composting system: is your climate dry? (If so, something more enclosed than a wire bin will help the compost maintain optimal moisture). How cold do your winters get? (If you want your compost to be active all winter, an insulated tumbler like the one I mention above could help).

Also consider using municipal compost, if somewhere in your area offers it. (Here in Seattle we put our food scraps and garden waste in green bins, which waste management composts, and sells back to us relatively cheaply).

If you want to do something super labor intensive, but with great results, you can try a worm bin. If you want guidance on that I can write more here, but I'm guessing the work of keeping worms alive and separating them out from the compost may not appeal to you (or many people!).

Thanks, Moses and KS, I will check out the Scandinavian composter and others!

You could buy a lot of commercial compost for the price of a Jora composter, but you might find something similar that will work for you. Avoid compost tumblers that sit on the ground, or on a stand near the ground. If you are saving your back, getting one that is easy to reach, and that is easy to empty into a wheel barrow, will be best.

Hi dizzylizzy,

My DH read in the Decatur Daily yesterday about Morgan County's free compost give away this week. I've copied part of the newspaper article below. I'm Morgan County, but think you are in Birmingham...probably Jefferson County? If so, you could check with them as K S also mentioned.

The spring compost giveaway will be Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

City dump trucks will unload the compost in the parking lot at the Sandlin Road Southwest entrance to Wilson Morgan Park next to the softball fields.

Only private users can collect the compost, and it is not intended for resale.

The compost is available year-round at the Decatur-Morgan County Landfill on Alabama 20 West. It is free to residents who load it themselves.

The landfill will load it on trucks larger than one ton for $4 per ton. The landfill is open Monday-Friday from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. and Saturday from 7-11:30 a.m.

if you eat bananas and eggs and drink coffee you can use the peels, egg shells and coffee ground to your roses. It's something you can add without composting and it's cost saving if you already eat or drink those things.

Does your city sell rain barrels cheaply? Getting some may be a good investment.

I'm so happy that you're retiring!!! You'll have lots of time to enjoy yourself! 125 roses sounds wonderful!! I am envious. :)

Carol

Also, meant to mention that I use pine straw and leaves as mulch rather than buying it. I would go broke if I bought enough mulch for all my beds. We live on a farm, so I use pine straw and fallen leaves from our property (leaves in the back beds and straw in the beds more visible to visitors). Leaves and straw do break down quicker than bark mulch, but they amend the soil quicker, too. Not sure how much pine straw or leaves you can collect from your property, but if not enough, I find many folks will gladly give away theirs. When I lived in a subdivision years ago, neighbors preferred to dump their leaves in my yard rather than have to dispose of them themselves. And even on a farm in the middle of nowhere, people often bring me truckloads of straw/leaves while I'm out working in the yard (got three truckloads of straw this weekend from a neighboring farm...yay!)

My advice (next to building up the soil which was already mentioned) is tow things. #1 to purchase strong growing, disease resistant roses that thrive on very little work. They will require less spraying, less fertilizing and overall give you more bang for your buck. Kordes roses tend to be good like this, but there are plenty of others including good OGRs and even good HT's that have excellent health.

My second piece of advice is to learn how to root cuttings. You can do cutting exchanges here online or with friends/rose society members, etc. Even if you dont have the patience for a small cutting to grow into a large bush, there is no better way to learn whether a rose is going to do well than to root it and see how it does.

The ones that root quickly for me are always the best performers. Fast root development in my climate means a rose is destined to succeed. Poor root development is a sign that the rose will need to be babied its whole life and will never be a strong plant. If you have good luck with particular variety you can purchase a larger bush or one grafted to the rootstock that does best in your climate.

Also this is not rose related, but learning how to grow from seed is a huge money saver. I never buy annuals anymore. MY garden is always filled with color because I grow everything from seed. Petunias, Zinnias and snapdragons are all very easy to grow from seed and will give you tons of enjoyment for very litte $$$.

First off, congratulations on your well-deserved retirement. But beware, my Dad said after he retired he didn't know how he ever had time to work!!!

I second coffee grounds. Check out your local coffee houses to see if you can pick theirs up if you leave them a receptacle. With a pitchfork it's not that hard to flip the compost from one side to the other to aerate, but that just helps speed up decomposition and isn't really necessary. You can also pile leaves in black plastic bags with some holes and tuck them away somewhere. The next season you'll have wonderful leafmold that is amazing. cutting the leaves with a lawnmower speeds things up. I'm a lazy composter, so I do that or just leave my leaves in the bins until they go down. I know myself: if it's too hard I won't do it even with the best intentions. I collect my neighbor's leaves and they act as if I'm doing them a favor! For food scraps I use a Green Bin (I'll look up the name if you're interested), but it was gifted to me and I like to keep truly edible stuff out of my leaves/grass bin in the hopes of deterring critters. I feel the compost may not add that much NPK, but it does help the microbiota, encourages worm to till the soil while leave their castings, all of which makes nutrients more available for uptake.

You could also try contacting a tree service or check with your city about free mulch from trimmings. I'm still using those from an oak I had to trim back and they are great. With a tree service you could request certain trees (ie pine or oak, no disease), etc. They are happy to do it if they're in your area as it saves them a tipping fee.

Lastly, check if there are any chicken, turkey or horse farms nearby. I can get a scoopful of manure for just a few dollars, but I suggest a bed liner in a truck as they usually don't deliver. Actually, having an old truck (or better yet having a friend with one) is my first recommendation with that many roses! ) If that's not possible, collect some 5 gallon paint buckets to fill. They are also free if you keep your eyes open for houses being painted, etc. They are life savers for me around the garden.

P.S. Try some alfalfa hay or pellets and make a tea or use as is. I can't believe I didn't try this before, but it's amazing. Also, Peter Schneider uses a cheap 10-10-10 for all his roses in the Spring. Aldi sometimes has this at this time of year.

SoFl Rose, I like the way you think!!!! Rooting cuttings and growing from seed is so fun even if I'm so bad at it. I agree about those that root easily being vigorous. My most successful to date are Cecile Brunner, New Dawn, Zepherine Drouhin, The Fairy, Orlean Polys and Cl. Clotilde Soupert. I hope someday to have my house clothed with the latter!

P.S. DizzyLizzy, are you in AL?

Agree w/ pat_bama.

Some here espouse "cheap things no good; good things no cheap"

BUY mulch? Free pine straw is excellent long lasting mulch here in suburban greater metropolitan nyc. Shredded leaves work well, too. BUY compost? And you don't need a "composter" to compost. A pile on the ground works fine. Check out the soil/mulch/compost forum.

Houzz is full of posters enamored with "buying culture".

You can find low cost pruners from a big box which are high quality. They work great for decades. Garage sales often have high quality tools. 27 lbs Hollytone at Costco for under $15 ; typically gets marked down to $10 here by mid May.

125 roses suggests a farm. Do you have chickens?

Can you get free woodchips from a tree cutting company? That's one way to save on mulch. The other organic materials that are great for amending soil are leaves and grass clippings. Can you access free leaves in the fall? I know you are trying to save money but a leaf chipper is a great investment and shredded leaves compost faster than whole leaves.

dizzylizzy 7b I love Mills Magic Mix (MMM), but it is expensive. Try substituting with Epoma Holly-tone or Flower-tone or an equivalent locally produced product at the same application rate as MMM. You may save money on fertilizing that way. BTW, Mills Mix and the "Tones" contain alfalfa.

On plants, learn how to propagate. Lots of threads in the Rose Propagation forum with instructions. You just won't be able to propagate newer, patented varieties. Also, if there is a rose society nearby, ask if any of the members are giving away/donating plants.

And I meant to congratulate you on your retirement! My DH is on his 32 year of teaching, so I know retiring after that many years of helping youth during their formative years is VERY well deserved!!!

I'm with SoFl and Vaporvac on the seeds, too! Like mulch, I would go broke if I bought annuals each year for my beds & pots. I still buy some for quick color while waiting for my seeds to grow since I’m not good about starting them indoors, but most of my annuals are from seed I’ve collected from last year’s plants or are self sowing. With plants that have tiny seeds that I find hard to collect from (salvia, vinca, pansies, impatients, etc), I just yank a few plants out of the ground at the end of their season, toss the whole plant in another bed where I want it to grow next year, and the seeds fall there. I grow my annual herbs from seed I harvested from last year’s plants, also. Same thing with many vegetables…I collect and dry seed from okra, beans, corn, etc. I’ll toss a bad tomato or a squash, etc, that I missed until it became too large into another area of the garden, and if critters don’t carry it away, new plants will grow from the seeds deposited once the vegetable disintegrates. I get a second, later season crop that way.

Wow! I certainly have alot to think about! With all this learning I should not get bored in retirement! Pat, I remember my first time on this forum. You were one of the first to respond to my question about disease resistant hybrid teas. Haha, I have since learned there are not that many of those, but that seems like a long time ago. You were so helpful then and now! I will never forget looking at the picture you posted of your roses, and I thought I was going to die! There were so many and they were so amazingly beautiful! At that time, I had a small bed that I had just made and had still not filled. I think that bed holds about 15 roses, so I have expanded since then. I am excited to know about the spring compost giveaway you mentioned. That is great information to have! Also, I do have pine trees in my front yard, so I do use pine straw mulch, and I also use leaves--so that is some savings on the mulching. Sofl, as for starting annuals from seeds and rooting cuttings, I have not done that so far--really no time, but I WILL have time and I am interested in learning. Vaporvac, to answer your question, yes, I'm in Birmingham, Alabama. I am going to check with our local coffee shops to find out about getting free coffee grounds! Dianne, I will also check out the Hollytone. Is it better than Rosetone? Rifis, I do have 125 roses, but I don't live on a farm, (that's Patbama, I think) and I don't have chickens, though I think chickens would be fun and useful! So much to think about and so much fun! This forum is awesome! Thank you, everyone!!!!

dizzylizzy 7b I use Holly-tone and Rose-tone interchangeably. I can usually get a big bag of Holly-tone about $1 cheaper than Rose-tone. I don't see a noticeable difference in results between the two products.

Milorganite is a super cheap quality organic fertilizer with slow release nitrogen, phosphorus and iron. Walmart will ship you 90 lbs to your front door for $36! the shipping itself is free.

The Math: Milorganite is $12 per 30 lb bag. Walmart offers free shipping if you spend more than $35. So 3 bags is 90lbs @ $36.I keep thinking some executive at Walmart will find out how unprofitable this is and take Milorganite off the free shipping eligibility.

That’s the only money saving tip I have. Mostly I’m only good at SPENDING on my garden, not saving, lol.

Call your county extension office. Sometimes they sell low cost compost bins to encourage people to start composting and cut down on waste disposal.

Birmingham has a very good Rose Society. I know several folks over there. All you have to do is contact them, go to a meeting or two to see if you like it and while you are there find someone who thinks like you. You will learn first hand so many little things that take the pinch out of spending. I'm a retired Drywall Finisher, so you know I don't like spending $$$$ when I really don't have too. The biggest thing you will learn is what roses really work in your area. That right there will save you a TON of green back. Remember this. Roses are your hobby. You do a hobby for fun and self enjoyment. They are a LONG way from being a life and death situation. When you walk out of that class room for the last time this spring, there will be a ton of emotions but get a big smile on your face fast. No early morning alarm clocks. A cup of coffee or tea and some soft music does the heart and spirit wonders. Plus, you will get to know all your roses first hand.

Ben, good point. I had forgotten about milorganite. They recommend using it at K&M roses and i stared mixing it in with my “fast action“ fertilizers to avoid them burning the roses. It’s cheap, effective and long lasting. Albeit kinda smelly, but no more than Epsoma or alfalfa etc.

Glad to learn about Milorganite, Ben. Thanks. Ken, I am already a member of the Birmingham Rose Society. You are right. There are some great folks there and I will talk with them too. Thanks to you as well.

SoFL Rose,

I learned about Milorganite from K&M, too. I do find so many earthworms and soft soil after using it for a while, and like fish emulsion it’s smellyness tells me its working its potent magic

Congrats on your retirement. I hope to be able to retire one day. I have three money saving tips:

1. I take pine straw from people who set it at the curb for recycling. I use it for mulch. I put cardboard down first as a weed barrier and then place the pine straw on top. It makes the beds look beautiful.

2. If you want to start things from seed, look up winter sowing. It makes sprouting things a lot easier.

3. Learn to grow roses from cuttings so you can trade the cuttings. Just be aware of patents so you're not breaking the law.

Good luck!

Thank you, BenT, for the Milorganite alert. I see ">80% slow release N" - very impressive. I hadn't considered it before.

Normally I eschew the Waltons. But after seeing the numbers you provided, and its effect on their bottom line, I might just order 3 bags from them. With shipping.

A good deed, yes?

I like the way you think rifis. I don’t care for Walmart either, but this deal is a big win for you, and a big loss for them, lol! I’d order 3 more bags, but what to do with all that wonderful but stinky Milorganite?

We have a little pond with bass in it. I think I'm either going to start using some of that water on my roses, or set out some rain barrels. I can't prove it, but it seemed like my roses hated being watered from the hose. There is a little mountain stream that comes off the hill to the pond, so I don't think taking a little will hurt anything. So my tip is rain water or pond water.

My mom is a science teacher and she says lightning storms are the best for plants because lightning puts nitrogen in the rain water, which in my opinion explains why rain water is always better than hose water. I’ve seen the difference. I always thought it was because the rain watered deeper, but now I think it’s the rain.

Look out for sales. For example, Roses Unlimited has a really good one during June or July. You can save about $5-6 per rose. Other reputable vendors have sales too.

I purchase compost and manure in bulk. It is delivered for a nominal fee. Some companies will make a mixture for you or they will have a variety of mixtures you can purchase according to the needs of your soil. I do not find it to be much more expensive than nor is it as backbreaking as all of the trips to home depot hauling bags (not that I do much lifting...but..) .

I hope you enjoy your retirement. My sister and my son are both teachers and I thank you educating thousand of students over the years. One has to love teaching to do it. Enjoy your roses an retirement.