In my neck of the woods it means waiting a long time for your turn with the better contractors and remodeling companies ... a very long time. I had a few simple things that needed to be redone in a new house and I have waited seven months so far and I am still not on the schedule.

My thought? Waiting to do a remodel in hopes of getting a lower price at some point in the future is not typically a winning strategy.

You either have the financial comfort zone for a remodel, or you don't . It always costs more than you think it will. Timing the "market" is impossible. If you are trapped in a forty year old kitchen, odds are you are going to have sticker shock no MATTER the time frame.

Everything is relative. If remodel seems "cheap" and all the worker bees seem available?? Chance are everything else, including your home value and 401 k .....stink out loud, and are sinking in "value" . That's how it works. If you sols your home for far more than you ever thought possible? It will COST you more than you thought possible to buy the next one. : )

Tides rise and recede to lift and lower ALL the boats ............

It’s made me think that I need to love the new house AS IS (as much as possible) and not do like so many folk who post here saying: I got my first house but hate the layout, the color, the landscaping, blah blah; without taking into account how much is going to cost to change it.

Ck contractor references, see an actual job, ck for pending litigation. It’s staggering how brazen the shysters can be.

Very wise words, Anglophilia!

I did some remodeling in 2009, at the height of the recession. I still had to wait for some time for a good contractor to have availability. In my area at least, it's not just the economy that is causing waits and high prices for renovation work; it is the lack of people to do the work itself. There is a severe shortage in this country of trades people. It is getting worse as the trades people who were baby boomers are all retiring, with few to take their places.

Where trades schools used to get students were from high schools. But now those kids would rather go to college, get into crippling student debt for the rest of their lives, so that they can have careers in IT, Marketing, or Finance whether they are suited to it or not, and compete for jobs with the hundreds of thousands of others with the same idea. Meanwhile, well-paying, steady jobs in electrical, plumbing, carpentry, etc. go unfilled. But I digress...

I guess I have a rather unique perspective about home improvements and maintenance (and who you marry). My ex-husband had a very esteemed and lucrative profession, but he could hardly change a lightbulb. I have now been married for years to the coveted master craftsman with his own contracting business. All I have to do is give the green light on most any project and, for the cost of materials (which we get at a discount), and of course the cost of any "other" labor (again often at a discounted rate due to our relationships), I can get some very high quality projects done as long as I'm OK with goofy hours and weekends. Yes, those highly experienced trades people are becoming a rare breed. Moral of the story: Marry one!

When we bought our house in 2005, we DIYed it to improve the cosmetic issues. We stripped 2000 sq feet of wall paper, stripped paint from mahogany doors, painted walls, stripped and refinished our 80s oak cabinets to match the mahagony stained doors, marble counters were hired out but we tiled the backsplash. We finished the basement by adding dry wall, ceilings, molding and flooring. We hired out for the electrician to bring sockets to code and add pot lights. We did hire and pay a lot to add a gunite pool and fencing in 2006. We used cash from a work bonus. It was a gift to our selves but a super-adequacy financially.

As time went on and after we paid off our mortgage fully, we decided to we wanted a bedroom suite. We again had a large work bonus. We had two different budgets, one for adding 500 sqft and an extra bedroom in our attic and on for adding just a small 100sq ft addition to the side of our present bedroom. The attic addition quotes were well over 150 k where we had budgeted to spend only up to 100k so we went with the addition bathroom. We waited about 6 months after choosing our contractor for his schedule and the weather to clear. The final cost for the 103 sq ft addition was 67k with mid grade finishes, but we added plumbing to a side of our house that had none and could have saved at least 8 k if we placed the new adjacent to the existing hall bath.

Because most of our improvements are DIY and we have owned the house long enough even with the pool and bath additions our house is valued a lot more now than it was at purchase and we bought before the crash. We have not lost any money. But on our recent appraisal both our kitchen and basement were valued for more than three times what we spent to improve them. Where as our pool and bath lost at least 1/5 of their combined purchase value. We had a reassessment to see if we should move forward on a kitchen redo with another small addition. If we can not pay for the addition in cash I will live with my good enough tight kitchen until we have the cash but I also want to make sure we do not eat away at our equity which we may tap into in seven years when my eldest will enter college.

I guess this is my long way of saying DIY what you can if investment is a concern. Look at buying another house that has your needs or improve your present house knowing that it will most likely be money spent not invested

.

ETA, janecalle, makes a great point but you do not have to marry one you can educate yourself to become one! I learned how to make my own patio and front walkway, tile, use a circular saw, cut molding angles, refinish furniture and cabinets, caulk, etc :).

roarah, I wish everyone had your DIY knowledge and skills. And your ability to plan first!

Unfortunately, not everyone has the skill or ability to DIY. Some are people do an excellent job, others take every shortcut known and unknown. I see this regularly when showing homes for sale. The poor DIY job is obvious to all that see the property and when it sells, it sells for much less than market because the buyers have to build in the cost to repair the poorly executed DIY work. It is painful to see. Too many choose not to get permits and then claim "they didn't know" they needed one.

When the work is well done...kudos to the owner. And the lucky buyer when the owner decides to sell. You can always tell when the work is a labor of love...and skill.

I only re did my bathroom and Kitchen because I was left some money.. otherwise I would still be living with a mismatched bathroom and a late 70s kitchen ..although I did repaint the kitchen cupboards !..but it's wonderful having a kitchen the way I want it ..not for resale value as most people here seem to do.

This is Kim not Jim. We just remodeled our kitchen last fall. What I would say is that we knew our contractor and have had him do several other projects in the past. That way we already knew the quality of his work. Yes, we did have to wait. When we chose him the first time, over other contractors ,on a much smaller job, his was not the lowest bid. However, his estimate was very clear and concise, and he communicated well with us--answering all our questions in a forthright manner.

If you don't have a relationship with any contractors, then ask around. Interview several, and ask for references. If you have to wait, it's hopefully because they are good at what they do.

The fact that you will have to wait for a contractor is not a bad thing, because it gives you time to research. I think the more planning and research you do with regards to products, layout, timing, the less hassle when you start the project. You have to be realistic about what you want to spend. So I think the planning phase is extremely important. The nice thing is that there are so many resources now. Sure you have all your local shops, but you also have online resources like this site.

I also would agree with Anglophilia that the remodel should be for you, and don't expect that it will increase the value of your home. If you are going to do it and aren't just flipping a home, then make choices that you want to live with. The fads come and go. Some things to think about are the function as well as the form. Combine them in such a way that pleases you and your lifestyle.

You can usually live with what you have, making changes here and there. If you want to take a home equity loan, then make sure you are not going beyond your means. Enjoy the process. If you can't do it all at once, then make a plan, save some money, implement the plan when you are in a better financial situation. Most of us have to work, save, and wait...then we are so happy when we see the fruits of our labor. We are often more satisfied, when we have had to work toward something rather than just having it handed to us.

Playing devils advocate, I don’t understand why so many people are against flippers. Who cares? Only the prospective buyer. And if he/she doesn’t do homework to make sure flip doesn’t hide problems, burden is on them, no? Is there another reason I’m missing?

BTW, I’m not at all against remodels. I’m against people buying a house they hate, and thinking logistics will be there to make it dream house instantly. First, there’s contractor availability, feasibility of change one wants to make, $$$-always money, and all the other things that day to day living throws at you. You had better like most of it from the start so you can live a reasonably content life, rather than rolling your eyes and feeling a pang in your stomach every time you look at the metallic purple wallpaper in the bathroom that you can’t change for whatever reason

I think in certain areas, San Fran, Boston and New York commuting areas, for example, first time buyers have no choice but to buy homes that fall short of meeting their needs if they fall with in their budgets. I think this might be why many have purchased homes with layouts they hate.

I feel for these buyers but I like to remind them of the generations before ours that did not buy their dream houses first but last. A starter house is a merely step in a ladder to the final destination. Be patient, make do, save money than step up to the next rung. This could be by making improvements slowly and with cash along with the plan to stay long enough to recoup investment or to buy anew with more of what you want.

Thanks everyone. Thanks for the discussion on DIY. The previous owner did a lot themselves and I've spent money correcting it. Honestly, I don't have those skills, though I know people who do, so thanks for the reminder that this is one way people watch their costs and...the reminder that I shouldn't try it. Lol.

Yes, I guess I am asking about timing the market. FWIW my contractor said if we weren't having this boom, my bid would be 10% lower; he said one option is to just wait.

I live in CA where housing prices are sky high (and we have funny property tax laws). During the recession that started in 2008, prices dropped 35% or more. I personally think the stock market is overdue for a correction too, which, could trigger a softening off the housing and remodeling market. (I doubt it will be that large of a drop, but even a 20% correction is significant). There are things I like about my house and neighbor but there are things I don't like that cannot be changed (the lot that is narrow and deep, so too close to the neighbor's house for my liking. But my back yard is super awesome and backs up to property with tons of trees, so better than most yards in my town). I'm not committed that this is my forever home, and I wonder if it makes sense to consider waiting a couple of years and moving then, when the market is lower (yes, I'll get less for my house, but that means less commission to the realtor, less capital gains tax, a lower property tax rate going forward, plus, if I find the right new house, I could use Prop 60 to carry forward my current property tax basis, if case there's anyone here in CA who has done that). So the logic in that scenario would be to tough it out, wait a few years, then buy a home that is worth investing in. I hate to sound like it's all about money but this is a lot of money (kitchen, master bath, back of house remodel, including two bump-outs) and I hate the idea of just throwing a huge chunk of money away. Obviously, I've been looking at ways to scale back the project to make it more cost-effective. One option, always, is to do nothing. But now that I've been looking at materials, it makes me think *some* sort of refresh might be nice. FWIW, when I talked to friends and a couple trusted neighbor, I've gotten responses from "get what you want, YOLO" to "do nothing." (Another house on my street sold for a lot and apparently its kitchen and bath were even more out of date than mine). A couple years ago, a pair of houses sold, side by side, that were similar in size. One had been fixed up, the owners often doing a lot of projects themselves, plus they did a big kitchen remodel, knocked down the wall to the living room etc. Next door to it was a house that had not been touched at all since it was built in the 70s. The price difference was about $80K which makes me think that I may not get much return on my remodeling dollar.

But I guess I'm wondering if I can do something to fix this up and get a somewhat reasonable return. (???)

Oh well. First world problem! Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I think if you plan to move within five years and you have extra cash, I would just refresh the spaces and save the extra money for a larger down payment on a better suited house if investment is your main concern. This way you have a pleasant environment to enjoy now and although might not sell for much more over comps might sell faster at top market value.

If staying longer I do believe if you can afford to make it what you want go for it. After ten years what we choose now will be worn and not in favor upon resale anyhow and hopefully properties, which historically do only increase at 6 percent, will still increase in value enough to off set the cost to make your house your home.

One thing to always spend on is maintance and system upgrades. If you need a new roof, hvac or electrical upgrades do those now before spending on the pretty wants.

yes money and builder availability has affected our plans. pretty much in boston and coastal RI, builders are either booking 7 months out at a high price, or dont return calls cuz they are busy and don't have the management skills to book more than one job into the future.

we didnt feel like spending $58K for a master bath redo, and we decided against pursuing a much more moderate hall bath redo as well. i did some painting and bought new towels. we wouldnt have realized a penny of increase in the value of our house by having either done. we have no plans to sell, the bathrooms were tired but not grotty. now they arent tired any more and we have the money still in our pocket.

we are spending $75K (oops there goes that money) this spring on a two story screen porch and deck at our vacation home. it will bump our house into a next level (realtor agreed) so we may realize some gain if we ever sell, and it will give a lot of enjoyment til then.

so i guess the short answer is, the money is well spent if the space to be renovated is in poor condition or lacking. money is not well spent if you are renovating because you think a kitchen or bath that 98% of the world would be jealous of is 'ugly' or 'dated'.

I live in Silicon Valley and I see no use in remodeling for resale. You are paying for the land and nothing else where I live. That is mostly the case anywhere, but the lesson is incredibly clear where I live. If you are in the entry level for my city ($2M,) you will buy anything you are fortunate enough to be allowed to over-bid on.

first time buyers have no choice but to buy homes that fall short of meeting their needs if they fall with in their budgets

Sorry, but how is this different from the way it has always been? I certainly don't remember a time in my life when most people could buy their dream home as their first. The only difference is that they didn't use to care so darned much if it weren't perfect. If you wanted to buy, you bought what you could afford and dealt with it, rather than buying what you can almost afford and expecting to turn it into a candidate for AD on a $500 budget.

I don’t understand why so many people are against flippers. Who cares? Only the prospective buyer.

Wow. Actually, lots of us care when we see charming older homes losing all their intrinsic value because of greedy vandals, if that helps any. There was someone in the bathroom forums just this week expecting help with covering gorgeous old 6" hex tile with cheap vinyl, for instance.

Have you ever actually been in a flip? Most of them are thoroughly noxious with everything cheap but shiny, nothing true (both in terms of angles and in a larger sense), and demanding extra money for having replaced good old work with the shoddiest possible, while not doing a darned thing for the infrastructure of the building, which is still often in a dangerous state.

Heck, there was a flip we looked at that looked pretty good if you didn't look closely, but actually it had had had a serious fire and only the visible parts of the building had been repaired. We pulled down the pull-down stairs to look at the attic and the roof supports and everything else up there were still all black and charred.

Agree with Anglophilia ... remodel for yourself, not for resale. Every house sold in my neighborhood is extensively remodeled by the new owners. Maybe that’s because land is scarce (vacant lots almost non-existed ) & resale homes scarce also. I also agree with writersblock, I’ve been house hunting recently & looked at a few otherwise beautiful homes that were ruined IMO by the sellers remodeling to flip or to encourage a quick sale. If you looked closely everything was of poor quality & very generic, HGTV -like style. I would have much preferred to pay $200k ( or more ) less & remodeled to my taste & standards.

Local conditions can influence availability of good contractors and supplies. The Texas Gulf coast is STILL rebuilding from Harvey. Good help is hard to find. I heard a story of a woman wanting to start a kitchen remodel and called someone she knew and had worked with before. He told her he couldn't get to her for months; he had clients sleeping on couches in friend's houses that he had to get to first.

Writersblock, my first home met my needs and my budget. Today in many areas starter homes are well over a half million and do not meet even basic space needs. This was not the case when I bought my first piece of real estate in the late 1990s in the New York metro area. I sold for almost double just a few years later. This is not the case now in the same location.

intrinsic value is only in the eye of the owner or buyer... I love my original closed floor plan, 1920 baths with cracked original tile and all, tin ceiling and patina, i.e. again cracked, plaster but my DH would be thrilled to update it all and what a next owner does is none of my business really.

actually, i do think more (than before) people expect/ get a dream house right off the bat. its partially a product of couples renting longer before they buy a first house, so they skip the little 3 bedroom rancher entirely. it was the case with my son and daughter in law, and will be the case with my daughter and her husband, too. delayed gratification does buy you something.

but you do have to save up while renting to do that! and not own 2 cars when you can get away with 0 and use mass transit and ubers.

We are *mainly* diyers...which I know most (ETA SOME instead of most, I don’t like to generalize) of the “pros” here on Houzz detest...but oh well it works for us. We purchased our first home in July of 2014 for $199k in an evolving neighborhood...it was a 1985 fixer upper that needed A TON of love. We rolled up our sleeves, planned, and did brand new floors, kitchen, and bathrooms. As well as painted and had new windows installed. We spent $35k on everything. In October we sold the house for $285k after 1 day on the market. We felt good about the upgrades we did and apparently buyers did as well. I wouldn’t expect that to happen like that again, I will say that just 3 years has made a huge difference in the renovations market. People are learning how to do more themselves and I’m finding that it’s harder to find a deal just because you are doing things yourself.

Rita. you are on the money ! I have a client with a daughter there and it is simply PITIFUL what 2m will buy.

ninigret-

The problem I see is that people hold off on buying something because it is too modest or isn't their dream home. The plan is to save up to be able to buy "more house" Unfortunately this can work against you. In the housing market of the last couple of decades, holding off and being responsible can be a real disadvantage as few people can save fast enough to counter the rise in prices. I've told each of my three kids to "get on the merry-go-round" as soon as you are financially able to afford something halfway decent. They each bought something modest that was within their means and that gave them an inflation hedge while they were planning their next move to a nicer house. So far it has worked well for them.

On the other hand, I have seen other young people who have been saving for 10 years and are increasingly frozen out of the market. It's a sad reality. I bought my first house over 40 years ago -- an 1800 sqft rambler -- and it cost about twice my middle class salary. While that was scary at the time, it's just amusing now in the face of these horrific prices.

"We are *mainly* diyers...which I know most of the “pros” here on Houzz detest..."

I've got nothing against DIYers; I've helped quite a few here. What I detest is arrogance, no matter from whom.

Sometimes pros can tell from just the nature of the question that the poster is out of his league. DIYers (and contractors) need to be just a little bit intimidated by their next project or they're not learning anything or getting any better.

Joseph I definitely wasn’t referring to you. Arrogance is not an appealing quality in any case!!

My husband and I constantly tell each other whatever we are doing at the time is out of our league but we like to try to look at it like a challenge of sorts. Keeps life interesting

The stock market at 7% historically has a higher return of investment than homes. So if people delaying homeownership could invest in the market while renting or as is more likely the case these days, living with parents, they could also use returns on their investment to skip a starter home and get more of what they desire theoretically.

@Girlwonder, if you are a Bay Area resident (as am I), waiting for the boom to subside will not likely result in significantly lower prices for remodeling. We owned a home in the SF suburbs from 2001 through 2016, and had added 1000 sf to the home in 2006. When the recession hit in 2007/2008, home pricing leveled off, maybe decreased slightly, but then rallied again shortly thereafter and continued to climb. So I think if significant renovations are required, don't wait too long to make them if you plan to be in this home for more than 5 to 7 years. The cost of remodeling will only get more expensive as will the cost of a new property, and you STILL may not get exactly what you want in the new place.

I'm willing to bet that if you took out a loan or a home equity line of credit to do the remodel, the chances are pretty darn good you'll recoup the money when you sell down the road, especially if you live in a desirable neighborhood with good schools. When we sold our suburban house, our real estate agent kept lowballing the offer price. We got her to agree to a higher one after we had done our homework on average sf pricing. Not only did we get it, but we got multiple offers over the asking price. CAVEAT: don't do this if you're going to sell in less than 5 years. Make cosmetic changes only and be done.

@ Sabrina, thanks for your comments. Yes, I live in the SF Bay Area. My experience from the recession is different than yours. (I'm a nerd and review my finances reguarly, including pulling numbers from Zillow--admittedly not perfect--and I definitely remember a steep decline that stayed low for several years before the uptick.). Even my architect was commiserating with me about how high remodeling costs are now, compared to even last year. Maybe it varies town by town. Anyway, I am considering selling in maybe 2-3 years. So this is my Q: what are cost-effective ways to refresh my house in the meantime. Not sure... There's always a chance that 2-3 years stretches longer (or to infinity. Who knows?) Thanks for your thoughts.

If the 10% cost difference in what your GC says it would cost to do the project now vs. a more subdued time in the market is enough to sway your decision, than you've answered your own question. 10% is a rounding error on a remodeling project - if you can't handle that, save your money and try to buy the house you really want.

Hasn't changed my home reno plans, but now I need to call 6 months out if I need a portable toilet or a dumpster. Used to be able to get them next day!!

You'll be lucky if any remodeling project comes in at less than 10% overage. The only people who manage that do extensive design specifications on the front end and hire great professionals. I would not have thought exactly how rare that is, but it seems to be exceedingly rare.

Most often you see posts titled "Help! I've torn down a wall and can't figure out where to place XYZ now!" Then there are pictures with gaping holes, wires dangling, and no posts or headers. And no idea that they just made everything WORSE!

FWIW, the reason I mentioned my GC's 10% comment is that even he is admitting labor rates and the cost of materials are high. I heard that during the last recession some contractors really hungry for work and dropped their rates even below normal.

girl_ we were fortunate to do an addition and a kitchen in the dip. everyone returned calls at that time!

I live in Silicon Valley and I see no use in remodeling for resale.

Yes, this! Sometimes I talk about my remodel and that it was expensive, and people say oh but you'll get that money back. Well not really! The appreciation will cover the cost so that I'm not underwater. However most homes in my neighborhood have old kitchens and bathrooms, and mine would have appreciated nearly as much with the old kitchen/bathroom. It's an expense not an investment!

Back to OP, if you're thinking of moving in a few years, I'd try to work with what you have and maybe paint the walls, get a rug, etc. Try posting pics in the Home Decorating forum for specific advice.

girl_wonder, I would definitely post pictures on the decorating forum for advice on how to refresh what you have inexpensively. There are some incredibly talented people there.

@Girlwonder, stick to cosmetic changes: paint, textiles, and furnishings you can take with you to the next place. Since you're local, feel free to schedule a consultation with my studio. Would be happy to help.

Prices in the Gulf Coast have gone haywire since the hurricanes, though quite a bit lower than a good portion of the country. If my house hadn't flooded, I would not be doing any remodeling. Well, I'm still not because the wait for a contractor is so long! I finally have one and am in the estimate stage. Pricing and availability works against those of use who want/need work done. Some of my neighbors started in Sept/Oct and are just now moving back into their homes, with punch lists and re-dos keeping them from completion. Seeing the work, I'm glad I waited.

^Agree with alex9179. It is especially difficult after hurricanes because that is when the scammers move into the affected areas and make promises they don't/can't keep. It is a real minefield for the homeowners.

Hi everyone. Thanks again so much for all your comments. I really appreciate it. Today I met with my GC to review the numbers again in more detail. I definitely decided against doing the big remodel. (as others could have predicted, moving walls etc are not a good ROI--they are an expense). I may do some sort of kitchen or bath facelift or "botox" since there's no guarantee I'm moving right away. If my 2-3 years stretches to 5-7, it might be nice to have some updates. We'll see.

FWIW, he told me two things I thought you might find interesting:

1) right now, the cost of materials is very high, and rising all the time, like month to month, due, in part, to all the natural disasters: hurricanes, the fires in Sonoma, CA and the mudslides south of Santa Barbara, etc. These people are without homes, (and rebuilding is largely being funded by insurance) so this demand is not going away until the houses are rebuilt.

2) he confirmed that even if the economy takes a downturn, labor rates are not likely to go down right away. My neighbor had guessed a year. My GC said after the 2008 recession, he still had plenty of work until 2011. He didn't feel it at all. This guy comes highly regarded, so my guess is that the good contractors will be the last to feel the pinch of a recession. For my project, if I do something small-ish, there doesn't seem to be any point in waiting a year or so to time the market. But as everyone here has said, if I may move in 2-3 years, the best option might be to do nothing or...try some decorating magic.

Thanks again everyone! I feel so much better!

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