Vintage Gardens, to me, is more trusted with the identity of their antiques because they continue to investigate what they have, compare to old records, and have no problem issuing their identification as tentative by placing the name in double quotes. Tammy posted pics of hers, and that is the "thornless RdV" I remember from another nursery -- dull green color to the stems, leaves wider and more rounded, tapering suddenly. Tammy first said hers had thorns, then took the pics and came back saying what she thought were thorns were merely small bumps. My band is just as prickly as a typical Gallica -- no one seeing it would remark about its "smooth canes" because they're not. That's not what I would call the same "a few thorns" as found on Tammy's band -- I can't put my finger on the stem without touching a prickle. The first reference on HMF for RdV is clearly a translation from the French (as noted by both the French title and the text's awkward English). I would much prefer to read the original and translate it myself. It's very likely that the "also the prickles of the branches" which follows a semicolon (which denotes a separation of the second clause from the first, such that it could be its own sentence if grammatically correct, and that the translation isn't makes me wonder about the accuracy of the translation) is not connected to the comment about "red stipules..." It could very well be that missing from the translation is a negative, turning that last bit into a comment about "also the lack of prickles of the branches" which is less awkward of a clause than "also the prickles of the branches." But I can't tell for sure without reading the original French. Be careful about taking an awkward translation as gospel just because it's the oldest. If several descriptions beginning merely a year later describe the plant as without (or almost without) prickles, I'd take that over the claim that the first description (as translated on HMF) is noting "red prickles" which I really don't get even in that awkward translation -- the semicolon would not be used if the "prickles of the branches" were red like the stipules. A comma would be. Also remember that considering the time for a book to come out in print during those years that close together, it's very likely that both authors were writing without seeing the works of the others. Thus the descriptions are better trusted to be based upon actual inspection, rather than copy-and-paste from other authors -- because there wouldn't have been time to read the first description and write it again in a book coming out a year or two later. Ultimately, RdV has had notes in her description over the years about her relative thornlessness. The band which I received would not be called "thornless" any more than many other roses I've seen which never acquired that adjective in their description. Sure, my plant isn't overly thorny, and its prickles are small, but they are not sparse enough for me (or anyone else seeing it for the first time) to say "my, that rose is thornless." But others seeing the real RdV over the years have. That's why I don't think this one is the "real" one, and the one I grew previously (and gave as a gift) was. :-) ~Christopher

ann beck 8a ruralish WA How does your soil look like, being high in iron? The top layer of my soil is black and rock hard clay, but the lowest layer is lighter color clay (orangish), and red roses do well here. Red roses like Double Delight & Munstead Wood both have a higher need for iron. I check the web, and it stated: "The most distinctive characteristic of an iron-rich soil is a ruddy orange or red color, though not all red soils are rich in iron. When the iron deposits in the soil oxidize, they turn a distinctive rust color that tints the soil red. " In early summer when the stems of cut-blooms are softer, they wilt easily if I use acidic rain. My cut-blooms always last longer in my alkaline tap water at pH 9, rather than acidic rain water. My tap water leaves whitish calcium and hard magnesium deposits on pots. We have hard well water, and our soil is high in dolomitic rocks (calcium plus magnesium). In the fall when the stems are harder, cut blooms can tolerate acidic rain water better with less wilting. Below are some recent cut blooms this Sept. 2022. Dark red are Munstead Wood, it's a constant bloomer as 8th-year own root, light pink is Princess Charlene d. Monaco (4th-year own-root), and whites are 12th-year own-root Mary Magdalene, lowest ruffled pink are Augusta Luis: The Dark Lady (red), Tchaikosky (light yellow), and Sweet Mademoiselle (salmon) are heavy bloomers this Sept. Tchaikosky is 4.5" across and Sweet M is 4". They are fertilized with biochar at pH 8.6 which supplies calcium and potassium for large blooms.

Very happy to find "Ace Hardware pine bark mulch", which are well-composted this Oct, and have plenty of pine-fines inside. I make my rooting-area in advance for next spring .. by that time the pine-mulch/pine-fines will be more decomposed & less acidic. The rooting powder that Bluegirl mentioned helped TREMENDOUSLY. Things take roots much faster. Do you make a slit at the side of the lower cane like Connie of Hartwood? Or do you slice a piece of outer-layer off like Kitty of California? I'm too lazy, so I do it California way, scrape a vertical piece off from the end, with my paring knife. For indoor & winter: I still don't like covering the plant with a plastic dome, it goes against my logic: cover anything up, and it will surely rot & get moldy !! My kid sprouted some mung-bean in a plastic cup, she covered it, and within a few days white mold grew on it, so gross !! This winter I plan NOT to cover with plastic, and simply squirt the soil lightly with a hand-mister. My neighbor kept a geranium through the entire winter. In freezing March I visited her: she kept the geranium on the window-sill (morning sun), and squirt it twice a day. And it was blooming tons !! I kept house-plants indoor in the winter and was foolish to water it, that was messy: water dripped on carpet, then whiteflies, then rotted stem (too wet). Hand-mist lightly is so much better, since leaves do take up water & nutrients .. same with stem I also put hydrogen peroxide inside my hand-mister to prevent rot. Bluegirl shared how Josh in TX put a paper towel on top of the rooting area to hold in moisture, great idea !! I'm convinced that hard-wood and thick cuttings NEEDS MUCH LESS MOISTURE. Versus the "greener & thinner" stems which dry out faster, thus need more moisture. The "alfalfa sprouts" type of root need constant moisture ... folks do keep alfalfa sprouts in a plastic pouch at grocery store. But the woody & chunky Dr.Huey-rootstock rots easily in poor-drainage clay. As own-root matures from "alfalfa sprouts" to hard and woody roots, they become more sensitive to standing-water and acidity.

Below is the info. that Floweraremusic (zone 5) in Washington gave on her 2020 winter-survival. She has alkaline clay with rocks at bottom like mine & less snow in winter: "My hardiest roses are the Canadians. John Davis, John Cabot, Wm. Baffin, Morden Sunrise, Morden Blush and Morden Centennial, Victorian Memory aka Isabelle Skinner, also a Canadian rose. All these only have tiny bit of tip damage and bloom a lot with no special care. Also, my Hybrid Perpetuals only have tip damage after winter. Magna Charta, Mrs. John Laing, Black Prince and Marchesa Buccella. The only negative is they don’t have long enough cutting stems. All my Austins are very hardy. The one I just can not grow is Jude. Leonardo da Vinci is super hardy and always healthy. Quietness comes through winter very well. Even Rouge Royale survives beautifully. Cinderella Fairy Tale is very hardy. Gruss an Aachen also. Ballerina and Marjorie Fair are both hardy. Poseidon, Princess Charlene de Monaco and Crazy Love didn’t do as well as I’d hoped. The surprise losses this year are Quicksilver, and Dames de Chenonceau who is left with only 1 cane. Versigny is also reduced down to almost nothing. This was a mild winter with very little snow. " Floweraremusic (zone 5). From StrawChicago (zone 5a with hard black-gumbo alkaline clay & less snow but with freezing rain in winter). Versigny didn't survive winter either. So I lost Versigny TWICE. Besides Versigny, other wimpy own-root roses that don't survive winter well: Paul Neyron, Anna's Promise, Pink Peace (own-root died 1st winter, but grafted-Pink Peace survives many winter), Elantyne, Jude the Obscure, Young Lycidas (bought as grafted-on-Dr.Huey, now with only one cane), Mary Daly, and many floribundas don't survive my zone 5a: Pink Chiffon, Sheila's perfume, King Arthur, Deep Purple, Shocking blue, Honey Bouquet (survived 1 winter). Polka Climber (survived 1 winter), Cloutilde Soupert (died twice on me). Sutter's Gold didn't survive winter, same with many fragrant mini-roses from Burlington nursery. Below are my hardy OWN-ROOT roses in my zone 5a alkaline clay, only Double Delight, Young Lycidas and Lavender Crush are grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Bold-faced are the very vigorous ones: Own-roots with 3 feet of green canes: Carding Mill (since 2012), Princess Charlene of Monaco, Duchess de Rohan, Crown Princess Magareta (since 2012), Zepherine Drouhin, Lady of Shalott, James Galway, Lavender Crush, Queen of Sweden (gave away but very hardy), Poseidon (right below the rain-spout, dug down to 2.5 feet), Scepter'd Isle (very big & hardy own-root but gave that away with its lousy scent). Own-roots with 2 feet of green canes: La Reine (many winters), Blue Mist (since 2012), Prairie Harvest (since 2014), Mary Magdalene (since 2011), Evelyn (since 2012), Radio Times (since 2011), Pat Austin (since 2011), Christopher Marlowe (since 2011), Golden Celebration (since 2011), Lilian Austin (gave away but very hardy), the Squire, the Dark Lady, Wise Portia survived 4 winters but died in poor drainage clay, Dee-lish (since 2015), Twilight Zone (since 2016), William Shakespeare. 2000 (since 2011), Comte de Chambord (since 2012), Princess Anne, Sweet Mademoiselles, Aloha climber, Orchid Romance, Bohemian Rhapsody, Marie Pavie, Lagerfeld (since 2017), Frederic Mistral survived 2 winters but died when I didn't winter-protect with leaves, Sonia Rykiel (survived 3 winters) but died in freezing rain winter, same with 1/4 of the street-trees in my neighborhood, Excellenz von Shubert (since 2013), Own-roots with less than 1 foot of green canes: Gina's rose, Tchaikosky (since 2015), Cornelia (since 2018), Bolero (few winters), Peter Mayle, Sharifa Asma, Neil Diamond, Amber Queen, A Shopshire Lad, Strike it Rich, Old Port (since 2012), Veteran's Honor (many winters), Double Delight (grafted on Dr.Huey), Savannah, Tess of d'Uberville, Gene Boerner (since 2014), thornless Yves Seedling (since 2013), Stephen big Purple (since 2012), Louise Este, Mirandy, Crimson Glory, Liv Tyler survived 1 winter but needs winter-protection, Rouge Royal (bought last year with no winter-protection). Annie L. McDowell (survived 2 winters but needs a wet-spot since it's almost thornless), Nahema (survived 1 winter then died during freezing-rain winter), same with Eyes-for-you (drought-tolerant and doesn't like freezing wet winter), Souvenir du President Lincoln, Madame Issac Pererie and Madame Earnest Calvat, Firefighter (survived 2 winters) but died since it's next to tree. Bayes Blueberry (survived many winters but I gave away), Charles Darwin (gave away since it fades badly), Arthur Bell (since 2012 & killed it since I don't like the flowers). StrawChicago.