Thanks gardengal. I just found out that i actually have a ph indicator, but its liquid.

How much organic matter needed for the clay to turn more into well-drained loam soil? I only have 10 kgs of vermicompost right now.

The clay soil has a reddish - brownish colour, its not really compacted like most clay soils and they break pretty easily if we turn them into doughs.

I haven't purchased a 'non-professional' (off the shelf of a box store-type) pH test meter in a long time, but the one I had was completely inaccurate (which is why - after that bad experience - I researched the issue further, and never bought another lol.) It took a lot of maintenance, and the results were never the same twice. Litmus paper is probably the best of the cheapest options. The 'best' way (accuracy) is to get a soil test through your local Agricultural Extension Agent (usually about $10 - $30 if it's available to your region - where are you?)

Otherwise, I agree with gardengal... you really can't tell the pH by observation. You might be able to do a survey of the native plants and see which are thriving, but this isn't always a good indicator as many weeds, for example, have a large spectrum of preference. However, if the land had rhododendron-type plants, then it's probably on the acidic side. If you have any hydrangeas growing in the native soil (without any supplements that would effect the pH) you can get an idea of the pH by the color of the blooms. Like with native plants though, you're only going to get an idea of the pH - not an accurate reading that would give you pH-adjustment recommendations.

If you did have a hydrangea, you could try to make the color change, and see how much adjustment would be required, but that takes at least a season lol... better to just spring for the test.

And do check the preferences of your desired plantings before you make the pH adjustments.

Compost will buffer through a couple of ways... it 'dilutes' the soil - but that isn't permanent. It's like adding water to vinegar... the pH is raised through dilution. The second way is through the reactions that occur as the compost and the clay interact. The compost can make a substantial difference, but that's only 'up-front', and it won't take an acidic soil and make it neutral. It will take, for example, a little more than slightly-acidic soil and make it so plants that prefer slightly acidic-to-neutral pH conditions can handle it.

You can also get an idea by talking to your agricultural extension agent, and asking any gardeners in the area what they've found out through experience. Unfortunately, pH can vary widely, but it will give you an idea.

Adequate organic matter (i.e. plenty of compost) in almost any soil will improve the ability of plants to absorb nutrients even if the pH is not in the ideal range. Plenty of gardeners work with soil well above or below the 'ideal' range and their gardens do just fine. Organic rich soil has abundant microbial activity, ion exchange sites and available nutrients, all of which contribute to plant health.

You may get some idea of the pH in the area by talking to gardeners, ag extension people, etc. about your local conditions. They won't always be able to nail it down if conditions vary on a small scale in your area.

Another vote for a professional soil test - pref. with the local Ag extension or someone who has no interest is selling you products, esp. products you don't need.

Just be sure to check the soil where the plants will get a full day of direct sunshine (w/o shadows, etc.).

No matter the results you will likely need compost.

A home soil test kit may give you an indication of what the soil pH is but no information about what needs to be done to correct that pH is needed. If the test kit indicates a soil pH of 5.7 what and how much lime per hundred square feet will be needed to raise that to the 6.0 to 7.0 range most plants refer and where most soil nutrients are most readily available? Do you need to apply a Calcitic lime or a dolomitic lime? If that test kit indicates a soil pH of 8.2 how much sulfur per hundred square feet will be needed to lower the pH to that desirable range?

Many state Agricultural Schools do soil testing for fairly reasonable cost, although some no longer will. North Carolina offers free soil testing (paid for by an assessment on fertilizer sales) but most others do charge. The University of Connecticut will test samples from outside the state, while many others will not.

Good soil testing helps keep excessive amounts of soil nutrients out of the water and is an environmental sound practice.

I think there is a tendency to over complicate these issues and often suggestions to have a professional soil test done - regardless of the need of the homeowner - work to that end. In fact, there was a similar discussion about the need - or lack of one - to have soil testing done on the Vegetables forum. . Professional soil tests can be helpful and maybe even necessary if one is planning a major growing production on unknown/unfamiliar soil. But for the average homeowner who just wants to grow a few landscape plants or veggies, they are probably an unnecessary and confusing exercise. In this sort of situation, really the most critical concerns are soil structure - how it drains or holds nutrients - and the pH. A soil test is not going to tell you the first and the second is easily determined at home.

Clay soils tend to be nutrient dense but they can be hard to work and drain poorly, so adding OM is the preferred method of loosening a heavy clay soil and improving its structure and drainage capacity. Don't need a soil test for that nor would one necessarily reveal that sort of information. And as stated, a home pH testing kit and a bottle of distilled water purchased for a few bucks will determine soil pH without the need for a professional test. And depending what that indicated, there are dozens of online sources that will offer advice on how to alter the pH that even the most novice gardener can follow. In this case I cannot see how a professional soil test would be of particular value to the OP.........unless they are planning on setting up a home farming operation where a nutrient analysis would be necessary.

"Good soil testing helps keep excessive amounts of soil nutrients out of the water and is an environmental sound practice."

This is a very simplistic statement that begs further explanation. In fact, an argument could be made that soils tests are just as likely to do the opposite!!

Yeah, in the discussion on the Vegetables Forum, I tried to make clear the point about considering when a professional soil test is a worthwhile investment, and when it is not as necessary as is often given as: 'YOU MUST DO THIS!' lol.

I won't rehash the points made there (it was a week or less ago for those who didn't get a chance to read and/or participate) except to say that yes... there are times when it is a wise investment; and no... it is not a necessity.

I'll also restate that when a person asks for advice on a forum such as Houzz/GardenWeb, that while I/we may offer our opinions and experience, there is also a 'duty' (perhaps - responsibility) to also mention that a professional soil test is the bestest, most accuratest, way to determine the exact pH of a soil and to get laboratory results upon which recommendations for making corrections for the optimum production/performance of any plantings can be derived.

However, in this case, we have no idea if the OP is going to plant one annual flower, or start a commercial farm lol. The basic question was about whether it is possible to determine pH "by its soil texture". The answer that gardengal gave was correct... nope... not possible. There is one very old method that I didn't give above (or in the other forum post) which was used for millennia before modern pH testing was a thing - and I don't usually give it because of the potential dangers (although extremely unlikely.)

Years ago, farmers would actually taste the soil. In fact, the terms that were derived from that simplistic method still exist... sweet- or sour (or bitter) - soil. A 'sweet soil' is (in some measure) alkaline. A 'sour soil' is (again... in some measure) acidic. I'm sure that those experienced farmers of yore could taste how 'sour' or 'sweet' a soil was and give round-about recommendations for corrections, but that knowledge is long past from most of today's gardeners. We now know that there are pathogens that live in soil, and while most of the more persistent ones have been eradicated from the U.S., there are still some deadly ones that could potentially cause health issues. I can't carry that burden for anyone, so I do not advise anyone to taste their soil lol. I guess you could zap a little bit in the microwave - which would sanitize it enough to make it 99.999999% safe - but again... it's not a 'living' knowledge base as it once was in the past. [and anyone who wishes to go that route is on their own... please don't try this at home :-))... and no, I won't tell you how many minutes to zap it on high... you're nuts! lol]

Another term that still exists from that bygone time... to 'sweeten' soil means to lime it in order to raise the pH.

In regard to the liquid pH kits... be sure that it can be used on soil. Most are made for swimming pools, and while you can use them to get an idea of the pH by soaking the soil long enough for distilled water to take on the pH characteristic of the soil, it won't be as accurate as professional tests... but that leads us back to the point mentioned in the other forum, and that gardengal made above... exact accuracy is not always required for the home gardener. Usually they just want an idea of pH, and they can then understand what they are working with in their soil.

The wonderful thing about gardening is it is "your garden - you can do (or not do) whatever you want". Gumby said it and he meant it.

My experience may be different than others because as a CT resident you can get a "Professional soil test" at no charge to you.

Tests Performed
Soil samples are tested for texture, organic matter, pH, nitrate nitrogen,
ammonium nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, and magnesium.

So along with Ph you do get texture and other nutrients listed. Along with instructions for correcting any deficiencies.

Correcting Deficiencies or Excesses
Based
on the soil test, applications of limestone, fertilizer and compost or manure are often suggested. The proper time for application of each amendment is usually stated.

http://www.ct.gov/caes/cwp/view.asp?a=2336&q=378202

IF you choose the UConn soil test there is a $12 fee - (I would hardly call an investment).

UConn Samples submitted for the Standard Nutrient Analysis are analyzed for plant available calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, sulfur, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, aluminum and boron using a modified Morgan extractant. The soil pH and buffer pH are determined and the samples are screened for estimated total lead. Estimated Cation Exchange Capacity and % Base Saturation are also provided. Limestone and fertilizer recommendations are made based on test results and the crop being grown. (Soils sent in our pre-paid soil test collections kits sold by some Cooperative Extension Centers receive this test). The standard nutrient analysis is appropriate for lawns, vegetables, flowers, woody ornamentals, fruits, agronomic crops and for nursery crops (like Christmas trees) grown in mineral soil.

UConn does offer pH only testing FREE at many locations such as garden fairs and some flea markets, etc.

I especially like that neither place has an interest in selling you things (whether they are truly needed or not) as garden centers are. I, personally, avoid soil tests at garden centers for that reason even IF they are FREE.

IMO - any experienced gardener would be remiss to not mention getting a complete professional soil test when asked - "Can i tell the ph of my clay soil by its soil texture? If the clay soil's ph is not neutral, will adding organic matter such as compost & mulch help neutralize the soil?"

Esp. without knowing the location, desired plants to be grown, (lawn grass, vegetables, flowers, rhododendron), history of the soil location, etc. Or the experience of the gardener.

Certainly you can grow even those things without a professional soil test. They just may not grow well the first year or even the third year.

But NO you cannot tell the pH of a soil by its soil texture. Adding organic matter is most often a good thing.

IMHO knowing your soil increases your odds of being successful, that's all.

Feed the Soil, Not the Plants.

Don't just buy fertilizer or other supplies simply because they are on sale or because that's what they neighbor does. If you are gonna then also buy some insect sprays because you just might need them.

So do what you will with your garden. The wonderful thing about gardening is it is "your garden - you can do (or not do) whatever you want". But above all grow with it and use it to relax and enjoy.

Some states, like Michigan, have on the books laws that supposedly prohibit the sale of fertilizers containing Phosphorus unless a soil test shows the soil that fertilizer will be used on is deficient in Phosphorus. However, I find many people claim to be unaware of that just as they claim to be unaware of the law that prohibits putting yard waste in sanitary landfills.

Testing soils for pH and nutrient levels was not very common until after the mid 1940's when many returning service people obtained degrees in Agronomy and began to question how much fertilizer and other soil amendments they should be adding for the best return on their investment. Testing soils and using that information responsibly is not only good economics it is also good environmental practice.

A professional soil test might be 'good economics', and it might be 'good environmental practice'. If I was, however, just going to plant a 4' x 4' area with a few lettuce plants and a zucchini, then there's no way that paying the $30 for a test in my area is either 'good economics', or 'good environmental practice'.

And this is the point I made above... there are times when a professional laboratory test is an added value, and there are times when it's just not necessary.

You'll have to show me where buying either a little Miracle Gro, or a little fish emulsion (if they were even necessary) for my few plants of lettuce and zucchini is against the law. Oh wait... I just looked it up... I can go buy Miracle Gro 'over the counter' in the Ypsilanti, Mi. Walmart.

I want to thank you for making my point that all these 'YOU MUST DO THIS or you're somehow deficient! (making bad economic decisions, or breaking the law by using a little fertilizer) because you're not getting a soil test' is something that isn't worth it for some circumstances.

And again, before someone twists the point... I have repeatedly said that there are times when a professional soil test is a wise choice, and times when it's just not necessary. I detailed these circumstances in that other forum, but it's just not worth rehashing.

I have 13 - 4' X 18' beds on a very small piece of property. I'll be expanding that this year, and every year, until the entire property is in production (Jehovah willing and the creek don't rise!) I have not gotten a soil test for nutrients, nor pH. And guess what... so far, I have not seen any reason for getting the test. Why? Because my circumstances do not fit the reasons I detailed on that other thread.

Now, other gardeners will make a different choice (and it would be wise for them to do so,) but my intensively planted garden (in my clay-based, extremely nutritious, slightly acidic soil) produces an incredible amount of produce. I barely fertilize (this year I haven't fertilized at all,) and do absolutely nothing to adjust my pH. Why? Because I don't have to do anything... my circumstances do not require adjustment. I supplement with organic matter, and organic materials, and my plants show zero deficiencies. If I see a little paling of color, then a little urine mixed in water works just fine thank you... and I doubt I'm breaking the law by peeing into a cup, diluting it with some water, and sprinkling it around my plants [in reality, I rarely do this when the soil is in production. I usually use it in the off seasons.]

In the future, I may choose to do a test. By then, I will have harvested plenty of crops and the test will have payed for itself.

So... there are times when it is a worthwhile investment, and there are times when it is not necessary... and all those who are quick to tell people they MUST do this - or they are just going about things all wrong - need to reassess and at least consider that some of us garden because we are dirt poor and literally scratching out a living. In such cases, $30 bucks is a high price to pay for something THAT IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES IS NOT 'GOOD ECONOMICS', NOR NEEDED FOR 'GOOD ENVIRONMENTAL PRACTICE'... it's just not necessary for some of us.

And... to further cover my points... when giving advice on a site like this one, it is responsible to let people know that the only way to absolutely know their exact pH and nutrient profile is with a soil test from a professional lab.

I agree pretty much with rgreen's comments. Since the OP was not asking about nutrient issues - which I agree are best understood and addressed with a professional soil test - but only about soil pH, the admonishments regarding needing a professional test are moot. pH is the one soil evaluation test that can be accurately determined at home, using the products or methods described above. And that has NOTHING to do with economics OR "environmental safety". And that's a pretty nebulous concept as well when discussing soil testing :-)

btw, the phosphorus restriction is limited to turf grass fertilizers, as these tend to be the biggest source of P run-off and leaching into streams and waterways. And most manufacturers and suppliers of lawn fertilizers have removed the P component from their products to comply with these restrictions. It is still allowed when planting a new lawn, however, and does not apply to other fertilizer products.

Thank you gardengal. I just get frustrated when people don't ask details, or understand individual circumstances, but are quick to tell someone to go out and spend money on something that may, or may not, be necessary.

And again... I'm not saying that the tests are never necessary, just that every situation is different, and not every person has the same means and/or access. It's easy to tell someone anonymously over the internet to go spend their money. If it was so necessary, then the advice-giver should offer to pay for it.

I'll be darned, there is a P fertilizer law in MI, and in MD, IL, Maine, MN, NJ, NY, VT, VA, WA and WI.

After a quick look (admittedly not a thorough review) the Michigan law applies to LAWNS (residential and commercial) and requires that a lawn be shown to need P before it is applied. It does not prohibit sale or purchase of P containing fertilizers.

For anyone interested, here's an article from 2012 with a handy summary table of the provisions by state.

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0076.htm

"Generally, these laws prohibit phosphorus fertilizer application unless it is for (1) curing a lack of necessary phosphorus, (2) establishing new turf, or (3) repairing turf. Many also exempt agricultural uses, commercial or sod farms, gardening, and golf courses. "

Phosphorus is bad for waterways, no doubt, but I also agree with rgreen's statements about very small gardens. You can overdo fertilizer, especially persistent nutrients like P, but on a tiny scale it's probably worse for your garden and your wallet than it is for the waterways.

Excess Phosphorus is very bad for water systems. Not too long ago the city of Toledo Ohio had a big problem with toxic algae in it city drinking water from the blooms in Lake Erie, the source of Toledo's municipal water. Numerous other municipal water systems have also had those problems. Several cities are suing upstream contributors of nitrates in the water source for their municipal systems. Pollution of our drinking water is a major problem and every little bit can contribute to that problem, even excess nutrients from a 4 x 4 planting bed.

We. each and every one of us, are contributing to the poisoning of the world we live in.

Some people need soil tests to convince them that they *don't* need to dump unnecessary and/or exotic fertilizers all over their soil.

Even then, it can be hard to fend off magical thinking - "well, there are TRACE ELEMENTS not measured in CONVENTIONAL SOIL TESTS that can only be supplied by this FERMENTED ECUADORIAN BAT GUANO!" Obviously the exotic bat guano is much more fun to think about than boring old compost and locally available organic matter.

I was interested in the Lake Erie algae bloom and read a bit. It's first and foremost an agricultural issue, driven to a huge degree by agricultural drainage (of farmland that used to be somewhat boggy).

That doesn't mean we shouldn't all avoid using excess fertilizer (I try not to use any, or at least very rarely), and there are laws in place for good reason about it. But backyard gardening as a contributing factor? Likely vanishingly small.

Actually, it IS a major contributor! Perhaps not so much "backyard gardening" but certainly lawn care. When doing research for a paper a few years back, I ran across some rather remarkable statistics that determined that the US applies some 600-700 million pounds of lawn fertilizers and pesticides annually, calculated at a rate of 10 times more per acre than a farmer applying fertilizer!! And if you have ever visited the Lawn Care forum here on GardenWeb, it is pretty easy to understand how these huge numbers could be true :-)

And that is why it is primarily lawn fertilizer that is now restricted as to P applications. And why pollution of streams and waterways well away from heavy agricultural areas occurs just as frequently. It is household usage, not farmers, that are the primary contributors.

I was referring specifically to household gardening and not to lawns (which are in my view rightfully regulated). And for Lake Erie, (I believe) the USDA says agricultural runoff is primary driver. http://lakeeriealgae.com/

"Dissolved phosphorus from agricultural runoff is the primary driver of Lake Erie’s harmful algae outbreaks, and a recent report from the USDA-NRCS shows that 84% of phosphorus applied to agricultural land in the Lake Erie Basin is from commercial fertilizers"

On the same page, note the issue of tile drains.

That said, I'm all for cutting down on fertilizer use in backyard gardens, too - I just don't think it's likely to be a major contributor.

^^ What armoured said.

So everyone agrees there is a problem... the problem appears to be overuse or using fertilizers when they are not needed. Now, I'm just not sure how not getting or even recommending a "professional soil test" is not the preferred course of action with this crowd?

My response to not needing a soil test was in answer to the OP's question.....a soil test is not required to determine pH. The original post was about detecting pH from soil appearance and the benefit (or not) of adding organic matter. Soil testing, fertilizing or nutrient loads never entered the picture before they were unnecessarily inserted into the discussion.

But yes, if you think fertilizing is a need or will be of benefit to enhanced plant performance, then a soil test is the basic first step. Otherwise, how would the "average gardener" know what and how much to add??

I have not read even one comment here where someone has said that not recommending a soil test is 'the preferred course of action'. Just reread the thread (this, and/or the one on the other forum) and count how many times I have repeated that the responsible course of action IS to recommend a soil test.

But, getting a soil test is not, in any way, a necessary action. What I have said is that it MAY be necessary, and it MAY NOT be necessary. I have also said that if anyone would like to learn the list of circumstances I proposed about when a soil test is a better choice than in other situations, then you'll find that list in the thread on the other forum.

There's a difference between recommending the test, and making the person feel that a test is required or they are somehow doing something wrong. The test is simply better for certain situations (listed on the other thread.) And, a test is the only way to get exact numbers on any given sample of soil (and even that is just an average of the soil in any sizable area of ground.)

It just seems that there is a rip tide of 'you must get a soil test before you can garden'. And this is absolute nonsense. Again though - for those who seem to be misreading the comments - recommending a soil test IS the responsible course of action. However, whether to get a professional test, or not, is a decision that entails more factors than just 'needing to get one'. In some areas of the country, a test from a professional lab can cost a LOT of money, and just finding the labs takes effort.

If those who think everyone should get a test want to be precise, then they should preface their comments with good reasons that speak to the specific circumstances of the OP. This is one of those times where there is just not enough info given in the OP to be pushing the - 'you must get a professional soil test' - line.

It must be spring, the Bickerflowers are blooming.

So many 'nots' in the past few posts that it's tying me up in nots. Why, if I had a nickel for every not, everyone would say "Where'd you get all those nickels?" :-P

I'm going outside to play. :-D

'Or not', is the expression that negates, and applies reason to... 'you must...'

I've changed my mind about this. I finally broke down and bought a soil test, and I'm glad I did.

For one thing, I was completely mistaken about my soil's texture. I assumed that I had the stereotype soil for my area. Well, I don't. Purely the power of suggestion all those years.

A couple of chemicals common in garden amendments are present in near toxic levels. Well, that's good to know. I can skip over all those posts about adding Epsom salt to the soil.

As Garden Gal suggests, I can't say I've saved money on chemicals---yet. I had to run out and buy iron fertilizer and Zinc after all. But that's all I buy, in no-nonsense bags. Long term, i.e this time next year, I'll be ahead of the game.

That said, pH tends to be an overrated metric. Unless you are growing a specialty crop like blueberries, you just need to know what side of the line you fall on and keep it in mind for your practices.

Along with Blueberries plants in the Rhododendron family, Heaths and heathers, and a few others need a more acidic soil and will not thrive in what is a normal (soil pH in the 6.0 to 7.0 range) so soil pH is not an overrated metric as some indicate. Most all soil borne nutrients are most readily available in the 6.0 to 7.0 pH range and having a soil outside that range could cause numerous plant problems by the simple lack of available nutrients caused by a soil pH out of range, something fairly easily correctable if one knows about it.

"Along with Blueberries plants in the Rhododendron family, Heaths and heathers, and a few others need a more acidic soil and will not thrive in what is a normal (soil pH in the 6.0 to 7.0 range) so soil pH is not an overrated metric as some indicate."

Really?? Are you positive?? Then you had better come and tell all those growers of rhododendrons, heaths and heathers and other ericaceous plants and the blueberry farmers that reside in the PNW that their 10's of thousands of plants are "not thriving" in our only slightly to moderately acidic soils (6.0-6.5)!! I don't know anyone here that amends the soil to be more acidic. Less - sometimes; more - almost never!!

Knowing what your soil pH is is a critical part of understanding your soil. But one also needs to understand that most plants have a wide tolerance of different pH levels and are able to grow and thrive in many cases at levels not supported by popular literature. And erroneous beliefs such as the one expressed above DO indicate that it is indeed an 'overrated metric' in many instances.

I was planning on growing some zinnias, marigolds and johnny jump ups in a tiny ( probably 3' × 7' ) heavy clay area. But after several attempts of digging ( trying to loose the soil and adding OM for increasing drainage ), i dont think it will be worth it. So i'll just plant them in containers.

Professional soil test = No no.

The area is just too ridiculously small for a Professional soil test, and i no longer plan to use it anymore. :p

Chillies and eggplants lives in the area. does that mean the soil is neutral or more on the acidic side?

I only use Worm castings or Compost as fertilizers, and I never use pesticides! I like it when bugs ( including aphids, they feed the ladybugs ) visit my plants.