Three questions: what is a bakers rack, and do you have a basement? Where does the power enter your house?

Diane R.-That's good to know. We could definitely get an estimate. If a bedroom closet isn't allowed, then a bathroom cabinet probably won't work.

mtvhike-A bakers rack is just an open, lightweight shelf. I guess for me it's just a psychological barrier to have in front of the box but can be easily moved aside if needed. No basement, we are on a slab. The side of the bathroom where the box and shower are is raised 10" above the floor in the rest of the room (another hurdle to jump). The power enters the house on the roof directly above the box (single story).

Thanks!!!

No, you can not put a baker's rack or build a closet in front of it that would be used to store stuff. That would also be a code violation. In most cases, it would be fairly easy to flip the entire panel to the outside using an all-in-one meter socket/40-space circuit panel.

Thank you, Fred S. I never thought about steam and humidity.

The code requires working space around a panel. You have to maintain 3 feet of working space in front of the panel over a 30 inch width. It looks like you barely have that now. It seems to me that building a 12" deep closet for the panel would put you in violation.

Prior to 1993, code allowed main panels in a bathroom. You may be grandfathered in there if your house was built before then, or even later, depending on when your area adopted the 1993 code. But again, you have to maintain working space.

I'm not worried as much as others about moisture affecting that panel. As long as you have an exhaust fan, it's not going to be much worse than a damp cellar.

Obviously I wasn't there when the NEC made this change in '93, but I'd guess that the main reason for it was that you often aren't appropriately dressed for dealing with electricity when you're in a bathroom.

If you have to move the panel, there are a few options.

Making it outdoor is certainly one. Outdoor main panels are more common in the southern US than northern US, for what it's worth. I don't know why. I personally wouldn't want to work on an outdoor panel in a northern US winter, but that's just me.Another is to convert this panel into a junction box, putting a dead front on it, and extend all the cables to a new main panel elsewhere. (Good opportunity to upsize the service too.) In that case, it only needs to remain accessible. You couldn't build a wall in front of it, but you could hang a picture over it.

Making it outdoor is certainly one. Outdoor main panels are more common in the southern US than northern US, for what it's worth

Common in the southwest and California, too. I suspect it's because it's cold and otherwise intemperate in the north.

Over the years I have worked with several electricians to have code violations, like you describe, cured. I agree with Diane R, you may be surprised to find it isn't nearly as expensive as you might think. Let me rephrase, the electrician worked, I just gave them the job :)

Also, have you received any sort of violation notice? If not, if you are going to move the panel to another space, why would they violate you at that time? It isn't my experience that they shut down or fine homeowners doing the right thing.

It is a good time to upgrade service. Definitely get a permit if you have this work done and use a licensed electrician. If it were my place, I'd take care of the electrical panel regardless of the bath reno, but it is probably more efficient to do all the work at the same time.

Location in or on Premises.

(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent

devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily

ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.

(E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units, dormi·

tories, and guest rooms or guest suites, overcurrent devices,

other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not

be located in bathrooms.

(F) Not Located over Steps. Overcurrent devices shall not

be located over steps of a stairway.

You can't flip it so it faces outdoors (with a protective outdoor cabinet)?

No, it has nothing to do with how you are dressed. It is not a requirement to wear gloves and rubber shoes when flipping a switch. There is no guarantee that people will turn on the ventilation fan. The physics is that humidity on one side of the wall will even out with the other. This pulls extra moisture through the panel since it is the weak spot. The frequent damp state causes more corrosion than any other state. It has nothing to do with rain or being wet, but is also the reason that an outdoor panel needs to have a 1/4" gap between the cabinet and wall, so the wall condition does not effect the meter cabinet, and why conduits need to be sealed when going from conditioned space to unconditioned space.. Being an electrician for 28 years and a GC for 40, I have seen the problem and cause for the code change many times. A panel IN an outside wall in the bathroom is even worse.

You would not "flip" the existing inside breaker panel to the outside. You would use one that is meant for outside, and we use them in the mountains on the 47th parallel quite often. The term flip was used to say it would be exactly on the other side of the wall so that the cables were still long enough.

I guess, if you can't handle the cold, don't live up here. ;)

I want to thank you all for your generosity and knowledge. I now feel reassured that there is a solution for our problem that doesn't involve selling a kidney or pulling a bank heist. We bought this house in '96 and the home inspector did make us aware that the breaker box shouldn't be in the bathroom, but it didn't impact the sale. I'm just concerned that once we get a contractor and tradespeople working in there, it might become a problem.

Fred, as a GC, are you obligated to report code violations? Can you refuse to work in an area that has violations? I'm just curious about how all this works.

"Fred, as a GC, are you obligated to report code violations?" - I am obligated to get a permit and inspections. I can not do anything, such as change your bathroom that would make something existing LESS code compliant to today's codes than already exists. For instance, I could not make the shower bigger if it encroached on the clearance requirements for the breaker panel.

"Can you refuse to work in an area that has violations?" - I am not sure what this means, since I can refuse to take any job, even if it does meet codes. Since I always get a permit, you could have me do as much non-code work as you want (although I really wouldn't do it) and then pay me again to redo it when the inspector comes and says to tear it out.... if you really want to play that game ;) Most people may not realize that that permit can protect me as much as the homeowner.

My first thought was to use the existing panel location and install a pull box (junction box) there and extend the wiring to another, new panel location. Being on a slab makes it a bit complicated to get to an alternate location, unless you have a sensible and code compliant location someplace nearby.

However, the concept of an exterior rated panel box, as Fred outlined, is probably the most economical option.

In my experience, when we remodel a space, the conditions of that space have to meet current local code requirements. These vary depending on where you live. I would suggest calling your local building department and making an inquiry about your situation. You can make that call anonymously.

"Fred, as a GC, are you obligated to report code violations?" - Or, do you mean that if I come and give you a bid for a job, do I have to call the code police if I see a violation? --- NO. In fact, I would consider it an unethical ploy to try to force you into hiring someone before you are ready.

There are a few types of alterations as explained in the IEBC.

https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/IEBC2018/CHAPTER-6-CLASSIFICATION-OF-WORK

To what extent the entire area needs to be brought up to current codes can depend on the classification.

https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/IEBC2018

...but, if it were me, I would definitely get the panel out of the bathroom regardless, while you have the bathroom torn apart.

Hamtil Construction LLC--In my experience, when we remodel a space, the conditions of that space have to meet current local code requirements.

That's what I was thinking. I'm not opposed to bringing my bathroom up to code. Just wanted to get some information before I went ahead with the project. This has been very helpful.

cdee18:

I would start this project with a visit to the local division of inspection. If you talk to them beforehand, maybe bring your sketch, they can be reasonable to work with. You need to find out if you're flirting with a huge expense or not.

Unlike others, there is no way I'd worry about the location unless I was forced to by a remodel, but that is what is happening so handwringing has to be done.

As an aside, my understanding of cabinets around electrical panels is that they are OK as long as clearance requirements are met. That, of course, means that the cabinet is only for the electrical panel, for the most part. Putting a movable rack in front of the panel can't be a building code violation because it is not part of the building. It can be a violation of the stupid code, but I question even that if it can be moved aside with little to no effort.

I, as others have expressed, think that putting an outdoor panel on the opposite side is going to be the least expensive solution. My assumption, having lived in several parts of the country, is that outdoor panels are more common in areas where slab homes are more common vs. full basements. If you can't put them in the basement, you put them outside. Nobody wants to take up finished living space with an electrical panel. In the areas that I have experienced, indoor panels have a much longer life than outdoor panels. I hate to see the outside, but it is not an easy choice.

Getting an electrician experienced in this very kind of thing is going to tell you if that is the case. Some are more creative than others so cross your fingers. I'd certainly get more than one electrician in. It is very hard to say how much it will cost, but you are not rewiring the whole house. There are going to be, however, some surprises. If you put a new combo main panel/meter pan on the outside, for example, if the mast is not high enough to meet current electrical code, will it have to be raised and how much is that gonna cost?

Re-wiring the house is not necessary. If you have attic space in your home, one option to consider might be to install a junction box in the attic, remove the old panel, run the wires from the old panel into the junction box and run the wires from the new panel into the junction box. Permitting could be done by the electrician.

How big is the laundry room? Swap the laundry and shower room around. Panels are allowed in the laundry room as long as you don't put stuff in front of it.

Move the 70" wall to the other side of the door. Change the basin into a laundry tub. Change the shower plumbing into washer drain and supply. Or maybe no walls move. Just swap the functions.

I was thinking something like this. Toilet gone of course. Or use the existing laundry door. Or close the existing laundry door and get more space.

Or maybe this