I love the prospect of 'constant-blooming roses', and if I want a red rose then 'Alfred Colomb' has been near top of my list for some time. It can even ''stand some rain'' apparently. I'm waiting to see if I already have it under another name.

Another fine list Virginia, thanks so much.

In the 1870's-1880's, many rose writers decided that there were too many similar-looking rose varieties, and there was a fad for declaring various roses 'synonymous' when what was really meant was that the rose blooms looked "too much alike" in the boxes at rose shows. One of the American writers who jumped on this bandwagon was H B Ellwanger; he may also be the writer responsible for grouping HP's into families (if he didn't originate the idea, he certainly helped propagate it).

I do think it was one of life's little ironies that when Ellwanger raised an HP that he considered beautiful and garden-worthy called 'Marshall P. Wilder', that it was fairly quickly declared to be "synonymous" with 'Alfred Colomb' by the synonymity-seekers. Ellwanger himself called it "an improved 'Alfred Colomb'".

Because of this, I suspect that 'MPW' was often sold as 'AC' in the U.S., and perhaps abroad. I wonder if they both survive in commerce? At any rate, I think either would be a fine choice for a red HP, though I wonder why 'Général Jacqueminot' doesn't appeal? I think he was considered all but infallible in many English gardens...

Virginia

This is a fabulous find, Virginia. I knew about Ellwanger but had no idea about the Rupert company in this area. I'm trying to imagine how my house, garden, and neighborhood looked at the turn of the century and nursery catalogs are probably the best source for gardening ideas.

I did spot 'Marechal Niel' that brings noisettes back to my list, as fanciful as it may sound for my zone 5/6.

I've been considering 'Baltimore Belle' and the only reason I'm still holding off on it is that it's a once-bloomer while getting fairly large... I can't wait to go over this catalog list more carefully this evening.

Your generous illustrations *and* HMF links are greatly appreciated as well.

In the late 19th century, there was an explosion of greenhouse growing. Advances in heating technology - 'automated' coal fired steam - reduced the amount of work involved in keeping them warm, so more people thought the results justified the effort. Around here, they were commonly used to grow violets for the cut flower trade. Marechal Niel was apparently a rose that made its way into many greenhouses.

If you read Buist on the synonyms, you understand this was a real issue. The French had a reputation of being very, um, casual, with their labelling. They also reused names. The end result was that the nurseries often had to decode exactly what had arrived.

I think I have Marechal Niel in a pot, have to find it. Anna de Diedbach is also in a pot. La France from ARE is gone, I found out later it wasn’t the true La France, I have to order it again this year. Seneca NY is by the finger lakes, I rode to Seneca Lake once, a long trip on route 20, I thought I was riding cross the country, a 3 hour ride. Lol

Did anyone else notice the "exorbitant" price for Marechal Niel? A whopping 35 cents, a whole ten cents more than any of the other roses which were going for... 25 cents! lol. That's 40% higher than the other fine roses they listed. This, for a rose that was already fifty years old.

A good example of "what the market will bear"! lol.

John

Coal costs money.

Yes, the French (and the Brits and the Americans) could be casual, and even duplicitous about rose nomenclature, but I don't think that is why the NRS decided to declare that "too-much-alike" roses couldn't be shown together, regardless of how different the roses might be in terms of habit, hardiness, foliage or other characteristics. The mania was for being able to show distinct rose blooms; to me that is a separate issue from wanting to receive Rose 'X' when one orders 'X'. IMO, the synonymity craze almost certainly created more confusion in commerce than it solved.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that rose growers often sold 'Marshall P Wilder' as its "synonym", 'Alfred Colomb', and let's also assume that 'MPW' actually was a hardier rose and more likely to survive neglect. Isn't it then a possibility that 'Alfred Colomb' is actually extinct, and the roses sold under that name are all actually 'MPW'? And that roses sold as 'Solfaterre' are all actually 'Augusta'?

As for American duplicity, check out the 'Balduin'/ 'Helen Gould' controversy...

I definitely agree that 'Maréchal Niel' would have been intended for greenhouse culture in the Seneca area...

Summers, were you on your motorbike? I'd guess that area was very scenic?

Virginia

John, 'Maréchal Niel' was THE yellow rose that everyone seemed to want. Beautiful, fragrant and truly yellow. In old American and British gardening publications, people were frequently writing in for advice about how to grow it well, and how best to situate it in their gardens and greenhouses.

'MN" seems to have been prone to canker, but some amateurs claimed that their cankered roses still bloomed well. Much ink has been used describing that rose, as well as prescribing for it.

Even today, there are quite a few forum members who grow le Maréchal, or wish they could...

There are irises where better growing cultivars have largely replaced the original owner of the name. However, with 19th century roses in America, the situation is much more complicated. It also wasn't influenced much by the exhibiting community.

Let's say that Buist orders 2 roses from France, 'George' and 'Martha'. What actually arrives is 'Martha' and 'Eliza'. Another nursery also orders 'George' and 'Martha', but they get 'George' and 'Thomas'. If coincidentally 'Martha' and 'Thomas' look reasonably alike, why wouldn't you assume they were the same rose? So what they think they have are 3 different roses instead of 4. Basically, imagine sorting out orders from a very unreliable source without photographs, or anything else other than catalog descriptions. 'Pink, very fine.' only gets you so far.

And I'm willing to bet that Buist often didn't even get "pink, very fine" when he was expecting it.

Given that creative nomenclature and just plain ignorance/carelessness still cause roses to be "confused in commerce" more than a century later, it might be easier to list the old roses that we're pretty sure are still what they were originally called than the roses that are of dubious provenance.

Summers, those photos from Ingrid that are Mme Leon Pain (ARE's mislabeled at that time La France) would make me want to keep that one too in addition to getting the real one.

I liked the La France/ Mme Leon Pain from ARE , it didn’t make though last winter. Pretty sad about it. I knew I was pushing it in my zone, so I put more mulch around it, it still couldn’t stay in my garden.......I think I might try a La France in a pot.

Summers, 'La France' might be hardier for you than Mme Léon Pain. Fingers crossed that she'll do well there.

Sheila, do I see 'Mme Léon Pain' in your future?

:>)

Virginia

Summersrythm, High Country Roses carries the "real" La France. I believe ARE carries the real Climbing La France, at least I hope so since I ordered it for Spring! ; ) Anne de Diesbach really interests me. Does anyone grow it and have comments to share?

Again, Virginia, these are about my favourite posts. While all my choices thus far haven't been historically accurate for my 1914 house, I hope to add more and more that are as time passes and I know what the heck I'm doing over here! Reading your post really helps give me a feel for what was popular over time. I'm actually amazed so many are still available, but realize given modern tastes and a current penchant for new homeowners to just rip everything out, that these oldies are always under stress.

Well, I don 't have a warm greenhouse so once again a noisette is scratched off my list as soon as it was put on it... though if Summers is growing MN in a pot, that could be an option... I'm very tempted to order 'La France' too.

This evening I've been looking through the Biodiversity Her. Library and found this catalog. I was happy to see they were selling many heirloom apples that are my favorites: Esopus Spitzenburg (above all), Roxbury Russett, Northern Spy, Wagener, Gravenstein, and others. One of the great things about living in this area are amazing orchards, many specializing in heirloom apples and I'm glad that the tradition continues.

vesfl, if I were feeling adventurous, and planning to try a Noisette in your area, I think I'd go for 'Aimée Vibert', since I think she is hardier than most of her fellow Noisettes. Or perhaps 'Louise Darzens'? Maybe someone with first-hand experience gardening in colder climates can make recommendations?

I've grown Narrow Waters for years, so it or its sport parent Nastarana would be worth trying. Blush Noisette is also somewhat hardier. The idea is to avoid Noisettes that are part Tea. The bad news is that the hardier ones aren't as healthy as the Tea crosses, so they could stand some spraying.

Blush Noisette works well here; hardy, floriferous, fragrant and not a problem disease wise. The individual flowers are not impressive but an all round good garden plant.

Cath

I would love to have Blush Noisette for its historical importance and, while I'm also not as impressed with individual flowers, their clusters look very dainty. My only problem might be that it probably would not get sufficient sun as a shrub in my urban garden so I was hoping for a climber. I will also check on Aimée Vibert. Thank you all very much for sharing the suggestions. This is good to know for anyone who lives in a cold climate and loves noisettes (I love teas too, but...).

Does anyone have experience with Mme. Alfred Carriere in Z5? It does seem to be hardy in my neck of the woods.

I had a huge free standing one (12') in zone 6a, it stayed in my garden for 7-8 years, then it went after 2 very cold winters. I also lost 1 MAC tree, I trimmed it into a beautiful tree, it was next to a RV, the RV was parked there blocking the cold wind for many winters, but after we sold the RV, my MAC tree didn't make through that winter. I really love this rose, and missed it very much. So this year I ordered 4 bands. 1 took off in the early spring, I planted it in a protected area this time. The other 3 small bands I got them in Sept, they're very small, I am babying them in my basement. I will plant them in zone 5b garden next spring in a protected area away from the cold wind, I am going to use 2 MAC to frame a walk out basement door (facing east).

That's a wonderful find, Virginia, thank you!

Virginia, yes, I rode my scooter there, that black one on my user ID. It's an Italian Piaggio MP3, a 3 wheeled scooter (2 wheels in the front 1 in the back), top speed 80mph, 80mpg, 450 lbs, it's great for long distance. I missed my group ride by an hour that day, I caught up with them at Curtiss Museum (an antique car museum). That was my longest solo ride so far. It was a beautiful ride indeed by the lake, not on route 20 though. :-)

I always select roses which are good for 'general cultivation'...

I have always wondered what 'forcing' entailed back then. Could anybody enlighten me?

Thanks Kim. I guess they don't force roses for the cut flower trade like this anymore. It's cheaper to grow them in cheap labour countries near the equator, in high altitude pumping them with CO2..

You're welcome, Nik. Most likely transporting them half way around the world is cheaper than heating greenhouses. That and many countries around the Equator don't have the chemical controls "First World" countries do.