I have seen houses with both a catering and a family kitchen in houses here in SF and in London.

Not a new concept at all and not just for the rich. If you lived in LA you would know that we have a large population of Chinese and they like to design homes with a pretty kitchen and a separate wok kitchen for all the messy cooking.

I have been to Italian homes in the northeast that also had a working kitchen in the basement and kept the main kitchen pretty for entertaining.

Why is it any different than all the kitchens we have on GW lately that have a separate pantry with cleanup sink ... people want to entertain in their kitchen and not have it look like a kitchen with dirty pots and pans.

Good for them that they support the local economy by hiring all that kitchen staff!

I fully understand having both a catering and family kitchen if one quite regularly does very large-scale entertaining involving caterers. Like the White House, there may also be a family dining room and a huge formal one for entertaining.

Many such homes have gone back to a fully enclosed kitchen for just this reason. There was a huge new apt complex in Washington DC, being remodeled with enormous apt's and the write-up said that since most of the people buying these apt's do large-scale, catered entertaining, they had designed them with moving walls so the kitchen could be totally closed off from the guests.

I lived in LA for 3 years and was in the homes of a few Chinese and Korean families. Perhaps they had a "cooking" kitchen and I didn't know it.

A separate pantry (usually called a butler's pantry) is typically only used to clean up the dishes/glassware/cutlery used in the dining room, often all hand-washed and stored in the butler's pantry. All those nasty pots and pans were in a normal enclosed kitchen. I cannot imagine hauling a pot of boiling water from cooking pasta, all the way to a separate pantry, or all the pots and pans after serving the plates.

When kitchen design becomes about making sure a kitchen might NEVER be mistaken for one, then how on earth is that "good design".

Isn't it great that we get to choose what type of kitchen we want to build, buy, or live with, whatever that might be?

The number of 25,000 sq.ft houses in LA is such as small percentage of the total housing here, that this isn't a trend or example of anything.

Quoting anglophilia:

When kitchen design becomes about making sure a kitchen might NEVER be mistaken for one, then how on earth is that "good design".

Design evolves and the kitchen of 100 years from now is not going to look like the ones today.

True, but that's different from kitchen in which no cooking takes place.

Probably very few 25k square foot houses here, but there are plenty of GW kitchens with chef ranges and most likely not so much chef cooking going on.

Also, nationwide, the increase of kitchen size goes hand in hand with more meals being eaten out of the home and more prepared foods being sold.

I read that article today too and had the same reaction! I wish they'd included a picture of the iceberg kitchen. That is so weird.

There are several new startups that are aimed at getting people to cook more at home by sending them everything they need ingredients-wise for various meals, some go a step further by choosing the meal for you and sending it out on a schedule you set, but either way it’s supposed to help people with little time avoid the planning and shopping portion of cooking at home.

Not sure how well these startups will do with all these open plan spaces people keep pushing to have in houses. They still end up with cleanup duties despite the planning and shopping done for them. :p

I hate to cook. And I do the meal kit. It is the only way to get me to eat reasonably well. And I am getting to like the actual preparation of the food. Cost wise, it is reasonable. My kitchen is a tiny galley space. What it lacks in size, it makes up for with pretty lol.

Recently hung around some young professionals. One of them told me that he's overwhelmed even venturing into a super market. I felt like a dinosaur because I was the only one of five people who hadn't a subscription to a meal service.

Also, there's interesting research, that the more men cook, the more supermarkets have to adjust to men's cooking/buying habits: They don't plan around possible meals but just grab stuff that looks good. So for display this means that ingredients that may go together for a meal will be grouped together. Hm....

Hmmm indeed - that is interesting about the evolution of grocery stores per changing cooks and their habits. My dd calls Trader Joes the sleepover-food store.

I looked briefly for this data and couldn't put my hands on it but I'm sure someone pulls together # housing units in a market by square footage. I'm nearly positive that 25,000 sf homes are just sort of the starting point around here for luxury digs. I think there are a lot a lot a lot a lot of these places. sf is very tightly correlated with elevation, I have little doubt. And I think there's a lot of acreage above that magic height. It's surprisingly hilly around here.

Nosoccermom, that's interesting about grouping things. About a year ago, my main grocery store (Houston 'burbs) rearranged the produce section. Among other "grouping" changes that are probably there but missed by me, they have grouped tomatoes, garlic, jalapeños and avocados together. Drove me batty then. I'd still much rather have the garlic with onions. They also moved shredded cabbage and coleslaw kits to the prepped veg area and away from salads. All the other cabbage based salads kits are still with bag salads. Makes no sense, but maybe it's the man thing too.

nosoccermom, that's really interesting. I've read before about how some stores are changing their layout because of more male shoppers, not just for food but for other things that aren't traditionally "male", like buying diapers.

So they are placing the diapers next to the beer?

;-)

Distain for the wealthy is like distain for bad weather:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

"So they are placing the diapers next to the beer?"

Close.....the "beer and diapers" correlation was discovered through data mining 20 years ago, but in actual fact, no stores used the information to adjust the placement of goods. But that was why I used diapers in my post (it's an oft-told tale), and I didn't have time to look up the actual articles I'd read.

Having two kitchens makes sense if you have a large home, have a private chef, and/or entertain frequently. The staff kitchen is tucked away and is like a restaurant kitchen for caterers and professional chefs. The family kitchen is where they actually eat the food that the chef cooks, make quick meals, or get drinks and snacks. If that kitchen doesn't need to be functional for cooking, then it doesn't really matter if they have icebergs in it (that's kinda odd aesthetically, but not functionally).

Jenn, my daughter and her husband use one of the meal subscription services about 3 or 4 times a week and love it. With both working full time, they realized they were eating out too much. Even though it's more expensive than going to the supermarket and picking out their own ingredients, it's still cheaper and much healthier than eating out all the time, and they've found some very good, new recipes to cook!

Those meal plans are great for teaching cooking skills too. You save zero prep time using them- aside form the shopping and planning. The actual hands-on time with the ingredients is very high, thus much is learned and can be transferred to regular cooking eventually- though I suspect there will be more meal kits in our future, not less (I think we will pick up the kits at the grocery store instead of having them shipped.)

"teaching cooking skills"

It's amazing to me how many people (of all ages) don't really know how to cook.....They don't know the most common cooking terms or techniques (like "broil" or "saute"), and seem frighted by the idea of chopping or shredding. Like they don't know what to do with food. I think having people cook from a kit is far better than not having them cook at all.

Or you could just read a book. But most people don't seem capable of that anymore.

I havea friend who can cook who likesBlue Apron because it was her husband's idea, which means he doesn't pout about eating veg when it comes in the kit. He is VERY picky.

The best cooks I know including both of us here, cook in plain old fashioned kitchens with a stove, a sink, refrigerator, cabinets and a table. America is being brainwashed by advertising on TV for UPDATING their everything. Perfectly fine kitchens are being ripped out because they are (OMG) ten years old.

" America is being brainwashed by advertising on TV for UPDATING their everything. Perfectly fine kitchens are being ripped out because they are (OMG) ten years old."

I won't call it brainwashing, but it's really no different than updating a wardrobe or a car. Styles change, functionality decreases slightly with age -- but it's absolutely OK to want something different and new. In many ways, Houzz is like 'house porn', and (like any porn) it does artificially inflate standards and create desire if you use it too much or too often, or without critical judgement.

It's very different. You don't spend 50,000 dollars to buy some clothes and you don't UPDATE a car. You buy one when you need one. Sorry, but it just turns my stomach to hear people say they have to undo a perfectly functioning kitchen just because it's 10 years old and needs updating.

If you have all that money to throw away, then this is a different conversation.

Technically you could spend 50k on clothes but I would call that a little excessive - and I’ve got a walk-in closet you can fit two full sized beds in just barely touching wall width wise, end to end lengthwise. :p It’s not just clothes though; shoes, accessories, purses, the laundry sorter, the mister has 1.5 feet of hanging space for his clothes in there and of course my clothes are in there too.

The idea of redoing a 10 year old kitchen made me realize there’s a parallel in the divorce statistics (I practice family law).

People splurge on all kinds of things. A lot of people will spend $30K on a wedding - that's ONE DAY and then it's over. So why not spend $50K on a kitchen that you will use and love and be perfect for you every day of your life?

Have you read Ken Fulk's Magical World? He designed this wedding..I googled to find some pics to show you, and found a short article describing the event..he goes into much more details in his book, including how they took on themselves to become patrons for that forest for a next year so the event won't be prohibited, and payed huge fine I think too..and they turned ponis to unicorns, and these designer costumes were done in New Zealand(I think) but measures were taken off future guests from all over in advance, so special people flew to different countries to take measurements and give them to the costume designer so each dress will be custom and precisely fit..

He's a brilliant designer, Ken Fulk, and I'm usually not into reading about weddings-any weddings really..but that one was a chapter in his book(he's a prominent party planner as well as a designer) so I read it and still have some mental difficulty to get over it..

http://weddbook.com/entry/1946651/a-very-extravagant-wedding-fridays-fab-5

Sean Parker's wedding made quite a stir.

I suppose the amount of money it cost him was the equivalent of a very reasonably priced get together for most people.

I get that. It's still something that I can't quite comprehend. Some mental block. I blame the unicorns..:)

(should look up who's Sean Parker..I'm very illiterate in some things. well most things. lol)

April, be careful, some cultures do not understand self-deprecation :-)

Sean Parker is the music sharing guy- I forget the name of the company- he was in high school and he got a note from the school saying his father was there to pick him up for his orthodontist appointment- the young Sean did not have braces- he figured out that his house was being raided by the FBI because of his file sharing- he went on to be the first (?) investor in FB when Zuck came to SF.

PS Napster was the music sharing company.

oh I've already read it all! I mean not all but whatever I found in Wikipedia. They didn't mention orthodontist appoitment but yes went into young years and all..very interesting. He has very dreamy eyes,,:) His interest in cancer research and donations to the cause obviously touched my heart..Facebook, I'd burn if it was flammable, but whatever..

(no self deprecation, few people know a lot..like, really a lot. About a lot.

Took me that book "At Home" to better understand details in half of English literature I ever read much much better..and it's a fascinating reading, really

something like physics, I'm not even trying. High school showed me enough of my bright potential

that's fine since maybe I know other stuff.

but there's a hell of a lot I don't.

When I was reading "Foucault pendulum" during the first chapter I was so grateful I know Hebrew since whatever few words he used there were the only words I really understood lol. And I was reading in Russian:)

then it got easier...)

wow. I'm so off topic! awfully sorry about that

Love your off topics.

thank you!..I do hope Anglophilia forgives me though

Oops, apologies Anglo. You start the best conversations, though :-)

"you don't UPDATE a car. You buy one when you need one."

Maybe that's the way you buy cars, but most people buy one when they want X (more style, more room, more acceleration, more comfort, more economy, etc). Need has very little to do with it.

"If you have all that money to throw away, then this is a different conversation."

Actually, it's the same conversation -- as has been said, everyone splurges on something that they enjoy. It might be vacations, cars, clothes, celebrations, sports, hobbies, property, pets, cosmetic surgery, alcohol, etc.

"...you don't UPDATE a car. You buy one when you need one."

I know several people who do indeed "update" their cars...they buy a new one every couple of years b/c they want a new car -- with the latest and greatest gadgets, etc. And yes, some of theirs cars cost in the 50K range (or even higher!)

We all have our own priorities and things that make us happy, sad, or we're indifferent to. Isn't it great that we're all different? Think how boring it would be if we were all the same!

I’d be slightly concerned if someone was into ‘updating’ their pets. That doesn’t bode well for the pet(s) after all. :p

buehl - I agree. And people aren't only getting new cars because they want new gadgets or because they're bored with their current car's color. For example, my husband plans to get a new car every 2-3 years because he wants the latest in safety features. He's not doing it because he is wasteful and frivolous, he just feels more secure knowing that his family is driving in the safest car he can afford.

Most people I know are only getting new cars when they need to. The expense, after all! Huge budget bite... so we tend to run cars until they die.

Cars are mechanical and parts wear out and they quickly depreciate in value. A kitchen is affixed to ones house - it is not just "driven away". I was born to two parents who were born in 1901 and 1908. They were young adults during the Depression and it made a huge impression on them. Then there was the rationing during WWII - my father had to replace the engine in his car as one could not buy a new car. So, they greatly influenced how I see things. I was brought up "waste, not, want not". One simply did not get rid of something just because one had "tired" of it. My parents had bought a new refrigerator the summer before I was born (1943), and my mother kept wishing that danged old GE refrigerator would die (no parts available), as the freezer compartment help two packages of frozen peas and two ice trays. It also had to be manually defrosted. But she wouldn't buy a new one as that one still worked. Finally, she decided in 1966 that that blasted thing was going to outlive her, and she broke down and bought a new refrigerator; the old one went to the basement to store soft drinks/beer/extra food at holidays. It was still alive and well when my first husband and I divorced in 1975 and he took it with him!

It was very hard for me to tear out a perfectly good kitchen (RTA cabinets put in in by previous owner in the early 70's). I had made the kitchen look quite attractive. I could prepare meals in it. Yes, it had a problem where the refrigerator was as refrigerators had gotten so much larger. I finally decided that I wanted one new kitchen before I died, and I redid mine. I love it and it works SO well, but no "icebergs" and it was not done as a "trophy kitchen".

I'm a material girl and am not offended by affluence. I like lovely things. But there is a difference between that and downright "gluttony". I understand a Stately Home in the UK with 25,000 sq ft or even more. It was built in a day where entertaining was lavish, houseguests came with their own servants and stayed for long periods of time, families were large. They are wonderful historic homes that tell the story of a time in the past. But how many people even use the space in a 25,000 sq ft house?

If I won a huge lottery, I would probably buy the house my late husband grew up in - it's been on and off the market for a few years now. It's a very gracious, large house - about 4,000 sq ft not including the servants 2nd flr wing or the 3rd floor unfinished attic (one could add 2 brs up there and a bath and still have great storage space). I can't see having one any larger unless one had a LOT of children or regularly had house guests who came and stayed for weeks at a time. Then, maybe 5,000-6,000 sq ft. My son lived in a house with 6400 sq ft, but it had rooms for large scale entertaining (huge rooms!) and I don't like that kind of entertaining - it was not a cozy house except in one small room.

I'm all for gracious living if one can afford it. Not big on pretentiousness...

Maybe buy thesauruses for Christmas and pair with the latest oxford dictionary released? Just bookmark the pertinent pages with post its or something. ;)

My old kitchen has one circuit for everything but the stove and lighting.

You cant run the microwave if the crockpot is on, the dishwasher is on, and the fridge is running.

I have to prep with my back to the stove.

The cabinets are falling off the walls.

The stove is right against a cabinet side.

You cant open the oven and dishwasher at the same time.

There is one sink. It is only 27"wide.

I feel nothing but glee at the prospect of my addition. We paid hundreds of thousands less for this house than the going rate because of this stupid kitchen. Fixing it is a long time coming!

I am trying to be careful enough about my choices that in 20'years, I will need to do no more than replace the cabinet fronts and maybe countertop if it's dated. If I get the layout right, that will be the case. :)

But I'm choosing cabinets that look a lot like the originals. So hopefully not even that!

I am the only one in my circle who keeps cars forever. I don't like them. I got super advanced safety features when I got mine. When I have to get another, I'll do it again. But I've had housekeepers with much nicer cars than mine. :)

Ah yes, but is your addition designed to resemble an iceberg and will it be merely for show not for cooking?

its not about making anyone feel defensive over what they spend doing whatever - but it’s a bit silly to go through extensive efforts to have a kitchen you really only plan to have people look at like art. Which the OP alluded to.

lol! I guess if you don't cook, it doesn't matter what it's designed as.

I'm just saying that yeah, kitchens really DO "need" refreshing...or completely redoing....sometimes. When your cabinets assault you, your kitchen stinks.

Im spending money primarily on the bones of the space. If I didn't cook...I'd take a fabulous vacation,I guess. But I suppose that if I still wanted to drop money on a kitchen, I would do it for looks...,I guess.

It does somehow offend my sensibilities more than a ridiculous bathroom because impractical kitchens just seem almost morally corrupt somehow, while bathrooms are supposed to be self-indulgent.

"I’d be slightly concerned if someone was into ‘updating’ their pets. That doesn’t bode well for the pet(s) after all. :p"

Plenty of people updating their spouses....

Do you remember when Paris Hilton and a slew of copycat celebs were photographed carrying their chihuahuas, etc everywhere? Where do you suppose those pets are today? I shudder at the thought.

this that shouldn't be fashionable can become so, right or wrong

People may be ‘upgrading’ their spouse but that doesn’t make it a good thing for anyone or the basis for healthy second and third marriages they might have after ‘upgrading’.

@bossy

Although Paris and others may not appear in photos with their dogs as accessories these days, their popularity and pursuit by paparazzi has waned. Paris continued to bring Tinkerbelle with her as much as possible and treated her well until her death. Paris has a bad reputation with how she treats people and how she behaves in general, but as far as I can determine she is different in a good way when it comes to animals.

Does this mean I think people should go around carrying their dogs as accessories? If the only alternatives are leaving the dog(s) at home neglected or in the parking lot in a hot vehicle then yes. Otherwise it’s best not to unless the destination allows dogs and it is definitely not ok if they must engage in subterfuge with special vests and certificates to do so.

I've had Cavalier King Charles Spaniels since early 1984. I adore this breed! People in the breed club were very upset when the Reagan's got their Cavalier. It increased the popularity of the breed tremendously, and brought in a lot of unethical breeders who just wanted to cash in on the fad.

Popularity and celebrity has never helped any breed. A few years ago, I sat next to the breeder of the only Cavalier to ever have won Crufts. This was at our club's national show. He told me that even though it was the thrill of a lifetime, he deeply regretted the popularity and exploitation of the breed that occurred after this tremendous win. Very sad for him...

I'm delighted that the latest "fad" with dogs is to get a shelter dog - purebred dogs are "OUT" with celebrities today. That's a great thing for dogs in shelters who need good homes badly.

Cavaliers have been popular since Queen Victoria's beloved Dash :-)