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marcyzone6

Football players kneeling???

Marcy
6 years ago

What's your opinion? Is it ok for professional football players to disregard the National anthem? Do you think it's disrespectful or is it freedom of speech for them to kneel while the anthem is being played?

Comments (75)

  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I'm completely okay with it. It's their right.

    There's an article in today's Washington Post with the headline- "The NFL beat Trump. Soundly."

    I loved the whole kerfuffle about the Golden State Warriors not wanting to visit the White House. There were lots of musing about it, then the press interviews with Steph Curry and others, all saying they weren't going. THEN, Trump came out and said there would be no invite. Say what?

    (He's redoing all the traditional presidential activities because of expected protest activity and the fact that at some of these things, no one wants to be with him. Trump decided to step away from the WH Correspondents Dinner, the Kennedy Center Awards event, and on and on. He needs to stay in his cocoons and away from protestors, those are the only events he holds where crowds don't need to be recruited and numbers don't need to be inflated.)

  • bothell
    6 years ago

    To those who think kneeling is disrespectful. Take a look at the fans in the stands during the anthem. You know the ones who are talking, texting, taking selfies, eating or continuing on with whatever. That is disrespectful. So is the pos President using vulgar language but that's ok?

  • CindyMac
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Add Trump's Manufacturing Councils to the mix. They all began to resign after his Charlottesville remarks. Before the last few could, Trump disbanded the councils as if that was his idea all along.

  • pennydesign
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Everyone has a right to CHOOSE what's most important to themselves....the order in which they place what they value.

    I can guarantee it's different for everyone. Saying words like "you should" or "I would" has meaning only to the person saying it, not the person listening.

    You can't put your values on someone else...

  • eld6161
    6 years ago

    I agree with the right to protest, just don't agree to the athletes using their profession during a game to make the statement.

    Yes to all the athletes opposed to police brutality getting together as a unit and working toward a solution. Just not when they are supposed to be doing their job, playing football.

    Wanda, I'm with you. DH is a Vietnam veteran. Talk about disrespect? He had to change out of his uniform at the airport so that the masses wouldn't saying horrible things or spit on him! Even the government turned their backs.

    So, I would say DH and I can be very emotional when anything to do with our country comes into play.


  • H B
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Different countries do it differently -- here's an article about what some other countries do.... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/world/asia/philippines-may-get-new-law-sing-national-anthem-with-spirit-or-face-prison-time.html?mcubz=1&_r=0

    and I've also heard discussion today about the history of kneeling, apparently Martin Luther King applied it in some non violent protests. If Americans are required to stand for the anthem, might that take something away from it? Wouldn't that make participation obligatory rather than true?

    I keep stewing why Kaepernick is choosing to kneel, and get stuck on the thought that in this great country, we are not all treated equally, despite all the ultimate sacrifices made. There is more work to do. And a non-violent call to address this, is much preferable (in my opinion) than to taking over buildings, holding hostages, waging violent protests, or other options (options that would truly gain as much attention as this one, which did gain a huge boost by the President taking tweet and comment at it).

  • Georgysmom
    6 years ago

    The one thing that should unite us all is our flag and our National Anthem. If you can't stand united on this one thing, you're not worth the millions you earn in this country you find so despicable. Yes, we have problems, yes we've come a long way and still have a long way to go.......when you find a country that is better, move there. I have no problem with peaceful protest, I have no problem with your right to freedom of speech, I have a problem with disrespecting the symbol of this great country. The symbol our troops so proudly raised at Iwo Jima, the symbol that was so proudly left on the moon, the symbol so many have given their lives for.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Why do they kneel at games? What better time to get more exposure to more people?

    Sorry, I don't get the drippy sentimentality that some pull out when this topic is discussed. I'm a veteran too, as were both of my parents (as I mentioned in another recent comment). That doesn't give what I say any more weight than what anyone else says or the right for anyone with the same background to have blinders to shield them from reality. My own military service came at a time when truth about what was really happening in SE Asia was withheld from the public. I and millions of others were duped with lies and forced (and some killed or wounded for life) to pursue a folly driven by domestic politics. There's little new to know, the real truth has been out for decades. It was all a big waste. Watch the PBS Vietnam series if you have any lingering doubts about what was going on, and then use the same lens to think about what our military has been doing since 9/11.

    Did I serve to sustain freedom? Heck no, and other than military forces that held the Soviets at bay in Europe during the Cold War years, pretty much the same is true for anyone else who has served since WWII. Am I sentimental about that time? No, I regret it all and have refused to let it define my attitudes or who I am in any way.

  • wanda_va
    6 years ago

    eld6161, America's greatest shame was the way the Vietnam veterans were treated! My husband was once asked to leave a restaurant, because his uniform was upsetting customers! Now, many are disrespecting police officers in the same way, and it is disgraceful. What a horrible lesson to teach our young people.

  • mare_wbpa
    6 years ago

    I hate it, I will always stand, but I defend their right to do it, covered by their rights under the constitution. Our armed forces fight and die to preserve those rights. I wish there was another way to show their objections.

  • CindyMac
    6 years ago

    If you're white and you wonder if you would've marched in the civil rights movement then wonder no more.

  • CindyMac
    6 years ago

    Trump, the NFL and the Powder Keg History of Race, Sports and Politics



    http://www.npr.org/2017/09/25/553478047/trump-the-nfl-and-the-powder-keg-history-of-race-sports-and-politics

  • sushipup1
    6 years ago

    Professing to love the flag and the song and then not supporting the Constitutional rights is like saying you're a Christian and then saying and doing un-christ-like hateful things.

  • phoggie
    6 years ago

    Kneel for the cross but stand for the flag!

  • amicus
    6 years ago

    My brother, who is a retired Major, supports those who choose to take a knee during the anthem. He perceives it not as disrepecting patriotism, the flag, or America, but only disrespecting the continuing acceptance of racism in America.

    All men may have been created equal, but from that day forward, they most certainly are not treated with equality. When it comes to the rate of incarceration between people of color vs. Caucasians, the sentence and time served and most of all, the unwarranted stopping/questioning/ for a similar scenario where a Caucasian would not be stopped and questioned at all, there is no doubt about the disparity among us.

    People of color should not be forced to feel that equal treatment is a privilege that they must aspire to, because equal treatment is their RIGHT, is it not?! Any peaceful, unobtrusive means of reminding us to work harder to change things, is not a problem for me.

  • Texas_Gem
    6 years ago

  • eld6161
    6 years ago

    But, not at a game where people came to watch for entertainment, not politics.

  • Chi
    6 years ago

    But if you are protesting injustice, why wouldn't you want to do it on the biggest platform available to you?

    The only people with the right to complain about it being done during work hours are the teams/management/ownership that pay the players to be there, and they don't seem to mind.

  • CindyMac
    6 years ago

    But, not at a game where people came to watch for entertainment, not politics.

    It doesn't interfere with the game anymore than the playing of the Nat'l Anthem does.

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    I think that what I find the most offensive is that it's really just posturing. If these over-paid players (especially those who are black), were going into neighborhoods, poor predominantly black schools, adopting a school, helping with tutoring or paying for such, it would mean so much more. For it to be a protest about how blacks are treated by law officers begs the question of what they are trying to do about the fact that blacks are killing blacks multiple times every single day. Not police officers, but blacks killing other blacks in their own neighborhoods. Why are they not speaking out about this?

    I'm not much for empty gestures.

  • gyr_falcon
    6 years ago

    I'm not much for empty gestures.

    Then how about recognizing the players that have Foundations dedicated to supporting health, underprivileged communities, access to sports, veterans etc.? I'm a very casual fan, at best, and even I know about many of the NFL players' foundations and the Whizzer White Award.

  • Chi
    6 years ago

    It's not just about police interactions, though, Anglophilia. Social injustice feeds into every facet of their lives and it's a huge contributor to the violence that you speak of. For many people, it's a viscous cycle from birth of poverty, limited opportunities for education and careers and prejudice.

    Of course, you can't just blame circumstances for human behavior because personal responsibility factors in. Dealing with racism doesn't make it ok to kill people. But it's true that in the US, that the color of your skin changes how people treat you. It's bad enough for private citizens but it should never happen from law enforcement and other official capacities. But it does, every day, and the officers often seem to get away with it.

    Honestly I don't think it's possible for white people to fully understand what the protests are about. On a general level, sure, but being white is such a huge privilege in this country that it's impossible to fully understand what being treated like a second class citizen your whole life feels like. I think it's dismissive to be offended by this stance on social injustice if it doesn't apply to you.

  • Olychick
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Chi, I wish I could like your post a thousand times ^^^.

    "If these over-paid players (especially those who are black), were
    going into neighborhoods, poor predominantly black schools, adopting a
    school, helping with tutoring or paying for such, it would mean so much
    more."

    I'm not sure why you think poor predominately black schools are the responsibility of black players? Or do you mean that black players are especially over-paid?

    "It would mean so much more." To whom? If you are concerned about meaningful to black youth (and you are, right?), it seems that famous people of all colors bringing attention to the injustices faced by Black Americans would have a tremendous impact on those kids. They can see that people know and understand what they are living through, or dying from and are trying to foment change.

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    6 years ago

    elmer, don't speak for my family. No one in my family says they kept the Soviets at bay. They FULLY believe that they spent their time protecting rights. They say it constantly. Without sentimentality or exaggeration. Just because your view is slanted, doesn't mean all views are slanted.

  • Suzieque
    6 years ago

    Just because we have the right to do something doesn't mean that it's in good taste. Stand up, you fools (IMO) and show respect for your country AND solidarity in trying to resolve our problems together. Our enemies love our infighting.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    6 years ago

    I have exercised my right to not watch ANY sports on TV. You do realize they get paid the big bucks because of TV advertising, right? Turn off the TV and protest the protests.

    Also I don't go to anything my daughters are not involved in.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Sorry Rob, but in my experience a form of ultra-patriotism is the Kool Aid served in the military to fuel the fervor and justify their existence. It's the hymn always sung and for me, it doesn't stand up to a sober assessment. The real patriots, whether in the military or not, are the ones who raise their voices to speak about things that are wrong with what's being done and work for change. Not the ones who simply follow orders blindly, anyone can do that.

  • artemis_ma
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    PK Ponder TulsaRose, they kneel out of disrespect for the anthem. It'Ts what they do to show that they disagree with the anthem and what it represents.

    It's not disagreeing with the anthem. It's their viewpoint that the powers that be are undermining the principles of the anthem.

    I stand for the anthem, but I take a Voltairian attitude to this thing. I will defend (no, not to the death, as my self-preservation instinct is too strong) your right to speak, stand, or kneel as you will, whether or not I agree with you.

    Besides, hey 1) what about all the real issues being forgotten about in the heat of this insanity? Puerto Rico, South East Texas, North Korea, etc? Let the media and the politicians get back to WORK.

    2) the people who rail against "politically correct" speech are often hypocrites if the issue is something THEY feel should be spoken "correctly".

    PS, I have absolutely no interest in pro sports. I don't know any of the players, so I don't care who wins or who loses. (Okay, yeah, Michael Vick. I want him to lose. Any of the abusive ones, I want them to LOSE in the worst way....) Yes, I think they're all overpaid, but it hasn't been my dollars paying any of them. (I don't get cable either, so I'm not even inadvertently subsidizing ESPN.) But enough people are out there making the games profitable. Just being rich doesn't mean one should just keep quiet... hey, it hasn't stopped Trump either.

    SO.... Politicians and media.... go back and deal with REAL issues. (Or not, you too have free speech rights... but it will be most useful to the nation if you do...)

  • CindyMac
    6 years ago

    #whiteprivilege #clueless #sad

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    As long as you preface it with it is YOUR experience, then go for it. But you don't speak for all military.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I'll say it another way- I saw first hand and in many other contexts over and over since how our military institutionally uses ultra patriotism for motivation and to justify its existence. It justifies blind allegiance. Your apparent attitude, coming from a military family, isn't unusual, sorry to say, because that's the party line. You're welcome to see it differently.

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    6 years ago

    I'll say it another way: they're your own thoughts and reactions. No one I know is blindly allegiant. That's your own view. You aren't right since you can't read all their hearts and minds. You lack it, that's your life, but don't try to come up with some trumped up stupidity and say it applies to everyone.

  • lily316
    6 years ago

    I support them 100%. They are not protesting the flag but the treatment of their fellow human beings at the hands of the police. Too bad our Dotard in the white house has to call them SOBs when he said in Charlottesville there are some very nice people on both sides...Calling the Nazis and white supremacists ...NICE????? Says it all from this racist in chief.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Okay. During your experience with a parent serving in the military, and perhaps you served in the military yourself, did you encounter many individuals or families, not including any who were disillusioned and had decided to leave, who questioned or had lower levels of patriotism than, let's call, the military standard? Or, is it fair to say, it's part of military dogma and is expected at a certain level?

  • Michael
    6 years ago

    Lily, even bad people can do some good things. Many do good things hoping their bad isn't noticed.

    There are many bad people doing good things. One was right under your nose at Penn State.

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    6 years ago

    Sorry elmer, that was never my experience. You sound like someone disillusioned that didn't choose, but had to serve. And during Viet Nam. I'm talking about those that chose, before, during, and after Viet Nam.

  • Kathsgrdn
    6 years ago

    I honestly don't care. Right now I am worried about the world, two "leaders" are heading us into, with their back and forth name-calling and utter stupidity. They're playing with lives all over the world. I do not want my kids having to live through a nuclear or conventional world war. Over 60 million people died in World War II, they aren't even sure how many. Most of them innocent civilians. When it starts, it isn't just going to be us against North Korea. I'm sure Russia, China and some middle eastern countries will join them and we won't be safe in our huge country across the ocean, not with today's weapons.


  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    If you're saying you never encountered less than 110% patriotic enthusiasm among those in or from a military environment and also, an intolerance of people who don't feel the same way, that kind of proves my point. Or did I misunderstand?

    As for me, no, not at all. I believe and regret that the military, post WWII, has been essentially a tool of a long list of politicians used carelessly for their own purposes. I'm sorry that I myself couldn't reasonably avoid the selfish whirlwind. Untold amounts of money, time, and lives have been wasted as a result. I personally faced no peril other than the normal nonsense one encounters in the military that can be enough to drive sane people loony. As I said before, I ended my service honorably and other than the things I learned about the institutions, I walked away with the same thoughts and feelings about myself and about the world and life in general that I had when I was (mostly involutarily) inducted.

  • stacey_mb
    6 years ago

    Being in Canada, I am not in the midst of U.S. race relations. (We are not exempt from responsibility for poor treatment of a segment of our population, these being First Nations people.) I picked a book at random off the shelf at the library and it was very compelling and to me, eye-opening, reading about African-Americans and the racial divide, mainly in the Mississippi delta region. The woman who wrote the book decided to find out more about her grandfather, Booker Wright, who owned a restaurant and also worked as a waiter in another establishment. She had never met him and in finding out about his life, also found out about his background and how he and others were treated. He was included in a television program, in which he stated that he endures having to act subserviently and treated disrespectfully in his job because he has three daughters and he wants them to get an education and have a better life than he did. There is a YouTube video of his short statement. The book's title is The song and the silence : a story about family, race, and what was revealed in a small town in the Mississippi Delta while searching for Booker Wright by Yvette Johnson. Excellent book on many different levels.

  • pennydesign
    6 years ago

    Elmer, can I ask your age? Curious because you seem like so many people I used to know.

  • lily316
    6 years ago

    Brush ..Have no idea how the scandal at Penn State has anything to do with the racist president and his hateful SOB remarks. And NO there are no nice Nazis or white supremacists. As for PSU, everyone in my family graduated from there but me(went to another college) and I detest everything about that scandal and find Paterno, Spanierd , the other two who are serving time now reprehensible. All knowingly knew Sandusky preyed on and raped boys from the 70's.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    6 years ago

    "you seem like so many people I used to know."


    How so?

  • Michael
    6 years ago

    Lily,

    Unfortunately, there are bad neighbors around you. You just don't know it, yet.

  • lily316
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I don't know what that even means since I know everyone around me and they're all nice people. Some might be Republican but I don't see any Nazi symbols or confederate flags.

  • Elizabeth
    6 years ago

    Is Lily new here?

  • lily316
    6 years ago

    Been here since 2001. Why do you ask?

  • CindyMac
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Elmer, can I ask your age?

    Is Lily new here?


    Is that paranoia I smell?

  • lily316
    6 years ago

    It's nutsy.

  • trickyputt
    6 years ago

    Soory. Could not resist.

  • chisue
    6 years ago

    Peaceful protest is everyone's right IN AMERICA -- whenever, wherever -- because this IS America.

    I do not have a public arena in which to protest, but if I did...I would protest there.

    I stopped flying my American flag during Cheney's administration -- ashamed that we would lock people up without due process -- and torture them. That terrifies me AS an American.

    I'm sad about putting the flag out every morning right now. I love my country, but I am ashamed of us. My ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War. Family has served in WWI and WWII -- fortunately NOT in the undeclared war in Vietnam, nor the other politically/economically motivated 'military actions'.

    It's never "My country, right or wrong."