What sized bird? For presentation or sliced in the kitchen? What kind of stuffing?

All those and more variables can affect the choice.

For myself, for a 20 lb. turkey, I prefer not to stuff it. I'd still have to make stuffing casseroles anyway to have enough for everyone, and the bird cooks better with an air pocket in the cavity. I put in some sprigs of herbs and often a lemon, but don't stuff it full.

Even better is to cook parts separately with steam.

Another choice is to cook splayed or in parts on top of a pan of stuffing, spreading that turkey juice goodness to much more stuffing, but since I like steam, whether it's from the steam oven, or from putting vegetables and wine under a whole bird in the big oven, I haven't done the on stuffing one with a big turkey. I think one could put a bunch of extra stock in the stuffing and have it steam the bird, but getting the amount right so that there isn't stuffing mush would take more cogitation than I want to bother with. I might try it sometime with a chicken in the steam oven.

I always stuff a turkey, unless I am simply roasting it for sandwiches.
I think the turkey stays more moist with a moist stuffing inside....and no stuffing is as good as that cooked in the bird!!

I agree with lindac92 about the flavor, but I disagree about the moistness of the meat. I think the stuffing soaks up all the oils drawing them out of the meat. About 30 years ago I started cooking turkey breast side down to the dry white meat would sit in the juices while cooking. That makes a difference. The turkey is no good for presentation, but we're not trying to impress anyone with our turkey cooking prowess. It gets carved in the kitchen and served in the dining room.

I agree with Lindac. The best part of the Thanksgiving meal is the stuffing!

Since it's how the mashed potatoes are made for Thanksgiving dinner, I always stuff the turkey. Even if it's not Thanksgiving, I always stuff the turkey. If you stuff it with hot stuffing (which I usually do) it cooks faster and dries out less. Even if I stuff it with cold stuffing, there's so much moisture in the boiled potatoes that it works in my favor.

If you cook the turkey breast side down for the first half of your total cooking time, and then turn it over to finish, you will always have moist breast meat.

The thing about more moist breast cooked breast down is that the breast doesn't cook as fast and is not over done as most white meat is on a roast turkey...if the thighs are done.
How many times have you heard someone say..."I don't like the white meat it's so dry." Or drown the white meat with gravy..

Never in my house do I hear such calumny! I don't do anything special but my turkeys' breasts are always moist and lovely. I think it's the bottle of wine (just pour it over the top), but most likely the quality of the bird. I like the hot stuffing idea, however, and I'll try that, Ricky.

I don't really have much turkey advice because mine seem to come out beautifully without me doing much to make it happen. One better, however is sous vide. This Spring I did breasts boned, rolled and netted by the grower (special order) and they were really good. I cooked them at roast turkey temperature (you can also do them lower, for the texture of raw/rare, but without the salmonella). So much easier when dinner isn't at a set time.

Last christmas, I stuffed boned turkey breast and it tasted great, cooked sous vide.

I do both, in the bird and out. My husband won't eat stuffing cooked in the bird. His father was a doctor MD...preached every year about how many patients were seen with food poisoning from stuffing cooked in a bird.

Was wondering about the safety part of stuffing within the bird, but only mamapinky has mentioned that. Anyone else?

Chase, I do two kinds of stuffing, a bread based one and a sausagemeat based one, and a bread sauce (milk simmered with peppercorns, bay leaves and cloves, thickened with fresh white bread crumbs, butter and cream, yum!) Boxing Day turkey sandwiches with both kinds of stuffing, bread sauce, mayo and cranberry sauce, divine :-)

Colleen, I'm intriguide with the a bread sauce. ..how do use it with the sandwiches? Like gravy.......or do you use it with your stuffing? Sounds yummy but something I am not familiar with

Colleen, I'm not familiar with that either, sounds like white sauce, kind of?

I always stuff the turkey, I'd have a complete revolt on my hands if I didn't, everyone loves that greasy mushy bread soaked with turkey juices. (Except me, of course, if you can't tell). Then I make a separate pan of cornbread stuffing for my very southern husband and my celiac daughter. She likes Italian sausage in it, Elery thinks that's heresy. (grin) So, the answer is, I do both!

As for safety, the stuffing should reach 165F just like the bird. Here is the recommendation of the USDA:

"How do you safely cook stuffing?
The stuffed meat, poultry, or stuffing in a casserole should be placed immediately after preparation in an oven set no lower than 325 °F. A food thermometer should be used to ensure that the stuffing reaches the safe minimum internal temperature of 165 °F. If the stuffing is inside whole poultry, take the poultry out of the oven and let it stand 20 minutes before removing the stuffing. Refrigerate cooked poultry and stuffing within 2 hours. For meat containing small amounts of stuffing (for example: stuffed pork chops, veal breasts, or chicken breasts), meat and stuffing may be left intact when refrigerating the leftovers."

I like the dark meat of poultry, but most of the fmaily likes the breast meat. Mother likes the crispy edges of stuffing in the roasting pan, all soaked with turkey fat. Ahem. We don't carve at the table so we don't need an entire bird for presentation, so I usually use the America's Test Kitchen method of disassembling the bird, placing the pieces on the stuffing and baking. It's done in just a couple of hours that way, the turkey doesn't overcook as I can cook different parts for different times and the stuffing still gets soaked with that turkey fat. Plus, the cornbread stuffing can get its share of the turkey juices, as I can make two separate but equal pans. Works well for me.

Annie

Dandyrandylou, I think the safety issue wasn't mentioned because we're all so used to it. A lot of people assume they can cook a turkey for Thanksgiving with minimal preparation or knowledge, or assume that they know it so well they don't have to think about it. Current cooks are pretty well aware that most poultry stock is so infected with salmonella that even the insides of the eggs can have it. They know that it's very important to cook the bird down to the bone and all the way through.

Cross contamination is a big issue and the baggie style food service gloves that are easy to slip out of are very useful so you don't have to wash every time you want to pick up the seasoning or something. Also, most supermarket poultry is thoroughly cleaned--washing it just contaminates your sink, and every where the water bounces off the bird and splashes. If you want to clean out the cavity, which may have remains of inexpertly removed organs (harmless to just leave there to cook), trim the fat, remove remaining pinfeathers, etc., it's best to do it on a board reserved for meat. Keeping one that's big enough for the turkey is a good idea, because anything you can't keep on the board is more contamination.

Small, humane growers are less likely to have salmonella, listeria, etc., in their animals, but less likely isn't don't have it.

Anyway, with all of that, the stuffing has to be the same temperature all the way through as the bird.

I know there are high heat preparations that are supposed to give good results, but I generally go for low and slow to make sure the middle has had plenty of time to heat all the way through. It's also easier on the timing with a big bird. I want it in by 2 pm, and out of my hair, cooking for five hours, while I get all the more demanding foods done.

Chase, the bread sauce is pretty thick when it's hot but cold it sets up so it spreads like peanut butter :-)

I second bread sauce. It's just the best stuff for any bird. AS you say, YUM!

Stuffing in or out, both can be delicious.

Just becareful, a large turkey, frozen, with stuffing is perfectly designed to give you food poisoning.

Done carefully, taking no chances, a stuffed turkey is 100% safe.

dcarch

Jusr curious - no one here has ever been tempted to stuff their thanksgiving turkey with rice?

Me, wild rice and chestnut.

dcarch

Colleen, Islay, do you use it as stuffing or do you spread it on your turkey sandwiches....or both ? I am intrigued .....it sounds delish

ETA I Googled it. Looks like it is used like a thick gravy or a side

When you make it in the first instance (oh, I forgot it has onion too), it's warm and runny like thick gravy. You have it on the turkey meat (though I have been known to just eat it with a spoon :-) ) as well as or instead of gravy. Gravy here is often more like a slightly thickened what you call in the US (and it drives me crazy because it's fake French and inaccurate) "au jus".

Cold I guess the bread crumbs continue to absorb the liquid so it gets even thicker and sort of sets to a spreadable consistency which holds its shape (so if you take a spoonful out, the hole stays). I love it on sandwiches.

SOLD !!!!! Every year I look for one change up . More than one would be suicide.

I'm making this TDay for sure which, for us in Canada, is just 4 weeks away.

PS I could imagine this served over noodles with chunks of leftover bird

Bread sauce sounds like a bechamel thickened with bread rather than flour. I'll bet that would work heated with leftover turkey over mashed potatoes.

Here's the recipe:

I onion, peeled

2 cloves (I like to amp it up and use about 6)

1 blade of mace (2)

1 bay leaf (2 or 3 depending on size)

4 peppercorns (8)

10 fl oz milk

2-3 oz fresh white breadcrumbs

1/2 oz butter (go nuts and use the whole oz :-) )

a goodly slosh of cream (optional)

Stud the onion with the cloves. Put this and the other herbs/spices in a heavy saucepan with the milk and slowly bring it to boiling point. Turn heat off and leave it to stand at least half an hour.

Strain the milk and return it to the saucepan. Stir in the breadcrumbs and butter. Bring it back to the boil and then hold just under the boil for 20 minutes. Add the cream to desired consistency.

It sounds a bit fiddly but really it's not. The breadcrumbs are easy to do if you toss frozen chunks of bread into the blender/food processor.

Enjoy!

I'm on it !

Colleen is it realy just 1/2 oz of butter? I'm thinking not.

Well, that's what the original recipe says but I'm usually heavier handed than that:-)

Actually 1/2 oz is in keeping with the recipes I see online.....can't wait to make it. Right up my alley

Colleen, that's whole cloves (spice), right? It sounds very interesting and different from the flavors I usually use with turkey.

Yes, Plllog, whole cloves the spice.

Thanks, Colleen, I might have to try that too, I wonder how it would go with chicken, which I eat far more often than I eat turkey...

It kind of reminds me of one of Grandma's favorite breakfasts: toasted bread, buttered and soaked in milk with a bit of nutmeg.

Annie

It used to be commonly served with any fowl, so I would think it would be fine with chicken.

I use my Mum's recipe and it's simpler. In a blender, put a small onion, bread chunks and milk. Whazz it all up. In a pan, put the mix, lots of butter, salt and pepper and cook very slowly for about an hour. Keep feeding with a little more milk, if necessary. We like it fairly thick. So a spoon stands up in it. Mum never made it runny. It's all comfort food!!! Colleen's recipe is more traditional. But, the flavour is so good with any fowl and as Colleen says, cold on sarnies it's a delight. It goes well with xmas ham too.

dcarch, perhaps because I'm in the Mediterranean when I think of stuffing - be it a bell pepper or a chicken - rice is what comes to mind. I was so surprised years ago when i first heard of bread stuffing, but it must be just as delicious.

My grandmother used to stuff chicken with rice and chopped onion, sew the bird up with a crescent shaped needle and white thread, plop it into a huge pot with overnight soaked chickpeas and some turmeric powder, and let it simmer for hours. The rice inside the chicken was the best part of this dish, with the chickpeas a close second. The chicken meat wasn't so great.

LOL! Too bad about the chicken. Was it not tasty? Long stewed chicken can be luscious or just plain overcooked. :)

My mother always used a darning needle to sew up stuffed birds too, but she made sutures. :)

My first thought for stuffing is always matzah. We almost always had turkey for Seder. It's easy to make for three dozen people at an indeterminate time. My mother would have loved to have made rice stuffing but my father's Ashkenazie family would have freaked. :) Recently I figured out that my failures with matzah stuffing were the brand. I like Yehuda best because it doesn't taste like cardboard, but Manischewitz absorbs the stock and fat much better and is ideal for stuffing. Even better if there are also mandelin and various varieties of matzah besides water. Freeze overs from the year before.

Bread stuffing is an American tradition probably because in the old days stale bread was plentiful and cheap. Oysters in stuffing definitely gained a name because of that. It's odd to think of now, but oysters used to be so extremely plentiful in the Northeast, just waiting on the beach to be picked up, that they were thought of as poor people's food. Other regions make cornmeal or cornbread stuffing, probably also started because it was plentiful.