Your architect doesn't cook. And your cabinet sales person doesn't design.

Thst island is a barrier, not an asset. The sink is required because you have that must have island shoved in there in the way of all travel paths to everything. You don't want a sink on the island? Then the fridge needs to go on the same side as the main sink sink. I'm Not getting the multiple traffic paths through the work zone either. You need to post the whole house plan. I suspect your architect is merely a draftsman.

10' ceilings are too tall for a functional kitchen, which is another strike against your draftsman. Open concept living requires some architectural separation of spaces, such as different ceiling heights, cased openings, or changes in ceiling treatments. Otherwise you get the giant cardboard box syndrome.

Your wing walls abutting the breakfast room provide the perfect opportunity to create some physical separation and dileneation of the two spaces. Lower the ceiling in the kitchen and lower the enormous price of expensive upcharged cherry cabinets. Maybe do that soffit, aka a "tray ceiling". Maybe just lower the whole thing to create a sense of intimacy. But you don't want to use taller than 42"H uppers.

I'll just comment about the 10' ceiling. If there is a way you can lower it to 9' for the kitchen, I would recommend that. I have 9' ceiling in my kitchen. To me, that's the sweet spot of kitchen ceiling heights. On one wall I have 36" cabinets with 12" cabinets stacked above them, with a small crown molding to the ceiling. Those upper cabinets are great for hardly-used things like holiday stuff, candles, shelf liner, and the like. Across the kitchen, on the other wall plus an "L" leg, I have 42" cabinets with some space above. I like the two different cabinetry heights like that because it is a little less monolith than the entire kitchen cabinets to the ceiling. If I had a smaller kitchen though, I would absolutely take every cabinet to the ceiling. But to take cabinets up to a 10' ceiling is expensive, and not very useful. One more thing I don't like is when there are different cabinet heights in one run like they are castle ramparts or something.

I wouldn't want a kitchen ceiling higher than the 9' I have, and with a 10' ceiling that much open space above your head will take away somewhat the coziness a kitchen should have. Just my $.02.

I'm not a pro, but I agree with Sophie Wheeler--in this plan you need the sink on the island. I'd move it over to leave some landing space on the left. I'd move the DO into the corner, to give landing space between it and the fridge, and move the fridge up. Then put a snacks/drinks/coffee station to the right of the fridge, with a MW in a drawer, or on a shelf, on one side of the fridge. If the MW is used for cooking, melting butter, etc., put it on the left--if mostly for snacks, and reheating leftovers, put it on the right.

I drew the main trash pull-out on the corner of the island, convenient to the clean-up and cooking zones, and you could have a smaller trash cabinet under the snack station. Do you have a walk-in pantry through one of the doors at the top of the plan?

Thank so much for the comments. I appreciate the different perspectives.

We have a highly skilled, award-winning architect, not a draftsman, but as the plan states, "kitchen design by others."

@mamagoose, yes, there is a large walk-in pantry through the door closest to the oven which is adjacent to the garage entrances.

So all of the family traffic into the home comes through that aisle between the fridge and the island? There is not enough clearance for that. That is a big picture problem that can only be solved by relocating the family entrance, or making that aisle much wider and relocating the fridge. Which needs to happen for workflow reasons anyway. What is the other door at the upper left to? And why is there so much traffic disruption designed into the room rather than designed to be elsewhere?

"48" upper cabinets with wood crown molding trim that would meet the white crown molding from the house"

That is an enormous amount of molding up to a 10' ceiling. Molding is simply filler, but when it's crown molding it is really $$$. Molding can be more expensive than the cabinets themselves. Easy money for the KD though. Adding filler is always easier for the designer than coming up with exact specs of cabinets and design. I have 42" cabinets and they seem very tall; I cannot imagine 48" cabinets. Also, IMHO, that much molding is more for a library, not a kitchen, but that is personal taste. You haven't said the look you are going for with this kitchen - contemporary, traditional, country, transitional? Can you post some inspiration pics so that we can see the look you like?

The issue with super tall doors is warping. Shorter doors stay straighter. Most cabinet manufacturers will not warrant taller than 42" doors, which is why cabinets are stacked instead of just doing 60" doors for 10' ceilings.

Others posted while I was looking for pics. Agree that it sounds like a ton of molding. Does your KD have any pics to show you?

Could you post the larger plans do that the location of the kitchen within the whole can be viewed?

Here is most of the first floor. We are very happy with the overall floor plan, just trying to figure out what to do in the kitchen. Additionally, the walkways in the kitchen are over 4' wide in all directions.

Hi Intoodeep - congratulations on your future home ! Did you delete the double ovens shown in the original drawings ? Are you using a range versus a rangetop ?

Hi Columbus, thanks! I am leaning towards double ovens and going with a cooktop. We will have a microwave drawer. I'm not 100% sure about that, but the big/little oven combo under the range doesn't sound ideal and I feel that I'd need another large oven anyway. *sigh* this is not easy. To answer a prior question, our style is "transitional." I think the full first floor is simplified, I believe the 5' fridge & double ovens are still shown on the bottom wall opposite the sink.

A large beautiful range can provide a great focal point for the kitchen as well as provide some visual weight to the overall design.

Then in the oven cabinet you could have a single oven with a microwave above it.

So basically a 100K kitchen in a 1M home. That has adjacency and traffic flow issues designed into it from the beginning. You really should post on the Building a Home Forum as well. That whole mud room, pantry, family room setup is much less than ideal. As is the Office.

Welcome InTooDeep!

I know it's difficult to hear, but most of what has been said above by Sophie, MamaGoose, and Friedajune is true. You will find that we believe in "tough love" here to help people avoid making costly mistakes -- Kitchens are probably the most expensive rooms in a home and usually one of the most used, even if you don't cook much.

So, what am I seeing?

(1) You have two doors flanking your cooktop -- where do they lead? Do you really need them both? Can your architect come up with a way to eliminate that one on the left?

I'm asking b/c if you really want to eliminate the island sink, then you need to connect the left run of cabinets (with the sink) with the run of cabinets with the cooktop.

(2) As it stands, your Kitchen has very poor workflow -- which will make what little cooking you do do unpleasant. You'll be running all over the place for simple tasks. Ideally, your Kitchen should follow the basic Kitchen workflow...

Refrigerator --> Sink --> Prep Workspace --> Range/Cooktop

...with little or no work zone-crossing (more on that later) and no obstacles or tall cabinets/appliances in the way.

Yes, that island, as it is in your original layout is a "barrier island". It's a barrier b/w the refrigerator and Prep Zone and a barrier b/w the refrigerator and Cooking Zone.

(3) There are three primary work zones in all Kitchens:

• Prep Zone -- this is where you prepare your food for cooking and/or eating. It's the most used work zone in the Kitchen, by far. Key components include:
  -- Direct hot & cold water access (i.e., sink)
  -- Sufficient counterspace (bare minimum of 36" with 42" or more highly recommended)
  -- Near the Cooking Zone (with range/cooktop)
  -- Trash & recycling

• Cooking Zone -- where cooking takes place. Key components:
  -- Range or Cooktop
  -- Directly adjacent to or across from the Prep Zone (if across, can be offset)

• Cleanup Zone -- where cleanup occurs: Loading the DW, rinsing/handwashing dishes, unloading the DW. You don't spend nearly as much time in this zone as you think. Since the advent of dishwashers, the amount of time spent cleaning up has been drastically reduced -- and much of the cleanup activity doesn't even occur in the Cleanup Zone! Cleaning up includes clearing counters, clearing the table, wiping down counters, wiping the table, sweeping up, etc.

• Zone-crossing is when you have to cross other zones when going from one zone to the other while following kitchen workflow.

For more information, see the Kitchen Design FAQs listed below.

.

.

"...I don't cook much..."

Do you really need a huge cooktop (48"?) and a set of double ovens if you don't cook? Wouldn't a 36" range work just as well for you?

Do you really need so much refrigerator space? 60" is pretty excessive. Would 42" or 48" be sufficient?

Do you really need two dishwashers? Or, do you have a very large family? (I didn't see anything above about you and your family -- something that really helps!)

If you eliminate the excessively sized appliances, it would free up some space to give you a much better workflow.

Layout Help FAQ:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

I see that you've posted a full-floor layout since I started writing up my two posts -- good first start!

Very important information:

• Where are you flexible?
• What can/cannot be changed?

.

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads -- These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

Have you posted your whole-house layout (along with elevations) on the Building a Home Forum yet? I'm asking b/c they have several regular posters who can do an excellent review of the home for you overall. (Several are architects.)

They'll send you back here, though, for the Kitchen design!

Building a Home: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/build

Intoodeep - Please keep in mind that this is your home and your kitchen so the only real answer to if something is right or wrong is if it's right or wrong for you and your family.

Nine foot high and ten foot high ceilings can both work beautifully in a kitchen depending on the look you're going for and your cabinetry budget. If designed correctly, upper cabinetry can either go to the ceiling or you can leave a space between the top of your cabinetry crown and your ceiling crown, allowing some of your kitchen wall color to show.

Thank so much for the thoughtful comments. I appreciate many of you not assuming what things will cost me to build or the caliber of professionals that I have hired. This is a fully custom home in a very HCOL area so many decisions, good or bad, were mine and the architect was skilled enough to be able to give us what we wanted and still design a beautiful, cohesive home. We are very happy with the floorplan, it works for our family particularly regarding flow through and around the kitchen.

That said, I am flexible in the kitchen within the foundation which has already been poured. I am not willing to make structural changes. It sounds like I need the prep sink, so be it. The main sink needs to stay where it is, overlooking the backyard. We were thinking of going with the cooktop and double ovens because we like that we could store pots and pans under the cooktop.

I prefer not having corner cabinets and having my desk off the kitchen but out of sight was a brilliant move by my architect. It also allows us easy access to the grill porch without having to go through the screened porch.

Also, we are a family of 5.

thanks again

I know this isn't kitchen related but take a look at how much space you have relegated to hallways and passageways. Seems like your whole house is made up of hallways.

Yes, I know, thanks. That's how we wanted it.

Can I just say that I'm in love with your house plans! It's going to be gorgeous and I can only imagine how excited your family is. Please post progress pictures!

So the door to the left leads to your office and another exterior door, correct? And the door to the right leads to the mud room and family entry area where both garages enter? (Which is a great detail, BTW) I don't think 48" is wide enough for a family of 5's major route into the home carrying book bags and bowling bags and roller computer cases and hockey sticks, etc. I would want another foot at least.

If you don't want to move the fridge, definitely leave the prep sink. My only concern is the traffic through that aisle to that fridge. And the overall bulk of that much appliance. I might consider relocating the freezer to the pantry area, being sure that there is extra ventilation there.

Where is your mechanical area on the plans? The water heater, and HVAC air handler, and the humidifier, and make up air system inflow? Is there a basement? Or a dedicated space on the second floor?

Your aisles appear to be at least 3" narrower than you think. Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out the farthest... counter edges, appliance handles, walls, etc. They are not measured cabinet to cabinet as yours appear to be. This is a very common mistake most architects and many KDs make.

Counters overhang cabinets by approx 1.5". So, 1.5" on each side of the aisle: 1.5" x 2 = 3".

Some appliances and their handles stick out even farther.

All that said, it doesn't appear you are open to changes... you like what you have, regardless of functionality (or dysfunctionality).

.

Even with the prep sink, the island is still a major barrier b/w the refrigerator and the sink/Prep Zone and the refrigerator and Cooking Zone... the refrigerator really should be moved.

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Regarding high cost of living areas (HCOLA), many of us also live in very HCOLAs, so we understand.

"I appreciate many of you not assuming what things will cost me to build"

I am not sure if that was a dig at my comment that the large amount of moldings you described up to your 10' ceiling will cost $$$. I mentioned the cost because most people who visit this forum, even the fabulously wealthy ones (and they do come on here, and post ktichens grander than yours), want to know when a great deal of money will be spent on something that is layers of filler to get up to a 10' kitchen ceiling. You should have said in any of your posts that cost should not be included in any advice, since cost is almost always included in forum advice.

I agree with Buehl that you are not open to changes. There has not been one suggestion made by the well-meaning people on this forum that you have considered, other than the prep sink ("so be it"). As you said, you believe your architect is brilliant, and has designed a beautiful cohesive home. Then perhaps not worthwhile to continue on here.

I'm sorry that you don't feel I am open to changes. I am very open to changes with regard to the kitchen design. We have a full basement and second floor with dedicated HVAC areas for each. We are very happy with the overall floor plan, for example the back hall bypasses the kitchen completely to go upstairs or around the kitchen. Given the way my family lives, that is ideal for us. I appreciate the comments about the amount of molding proposed in the kitchen and I agree. It is a lot and I was hoping to hear some alternate suggestions, which many of you have provided. Friedajune, my comment was not directed at you. I felt your comment was very helpful. Thanks again.

Considering most people will choose the quickest path between point A and B...even though you have created a lovely bypass, I doubt it will prevent people from zipping through the kitchen to get to the toilet or to go outside. The kitchen is presently set up to become grand central. This may be your intent and that's okay. If you're like me and it is hugely annoying to have people cutting through your workspace, it's something to be aware of.

maybe I should shorten the island and allow a wider path on that side of the kitchen. We don't want to block access to the pantry and yes, it is nice to be able to enter into the house rather than being forced to go around. One suggestion was to split the fridge & freezer and put a workspace between them.

Buehl, where would you move the refrigerator?

Like you, I LIKE halls! They separate space quite well! And I love your back staircase!

Could you put the refrigerator a bit closer to the door from the back hall into the kitchen? That would mean you are not walking around the island.

I have a few concerns. Your LR has no fireplace. Will it be inviting enough to actually use when you entertain? I'm concerned that there is no place right near the garage to put sports bags etc. Are they to be left in the garage? That is what my daughter has her boys do. It's messy but better there than inside and she doesn't have a mud room - her garage is that for her. I never worry about backpacks as they must come into the house for homework (even those in Kindergarten have homework).

It's a long way from the kitchen to the DR. Will you use it often? Will it be you doing the cooking when you do or will caterers use the butler's pantry to heat and serve food prepared elsewhere?

I know that many on this forum are obsessed with prep sinks in islands. I don't see the attraction. No, I no longer cook for crowds but I did once upon a time and I never needed one. I like a window over my sink even though I only hand wash when it's holiday entertaining and then it's dark outside. But I am at the sink multiple times daily doing other things.

How far along are you? Do you have walls up or just a foundation?

You wanted to eliminate the sink from the island. Is there room to put a prep sink next to your cooktop? I will have a prep sink right next to mine so I can use it to fill pots, and empty them too (I cannot do a wall pot filler)...and for food prepping as my main sink is too far from the prep area. Since you haven't purchased your appliances yet, would you consider a smaller range to free up some counterspace there?

Thermador 36" rangetop is gorgeous http://www.thermador.com/cooking/rangetops/pcg364nl-36-inch-professional-series-rangetop 

Intoodeep - here are two quick drawings relating to the ceiling height question you had - the first drawing shows a 9 foot high ceiling with 48 inch high wall cabinets and 6 inches of crown.

The second shows a 10 high ceiling with the same 48 inch high wall cabinets and 18 inches of built up crown.

Um, 18" of built up is more of a soffit than crown!

Yep - I know 18 inches of build up isn't ideal - I was illustrating what the designer had suggested to Intoodeep - I personally wasn't suggesting it.

Here are two more drawings showing the ten foot ceiling height. The first shows 42 inch high cabinets with 18 inch high cabinets on top and the second shows 42 inch high cabinets with twelve inches of wall showing between the cabinet crown and the ceiling crown. I've just noticed I didn't adjust the doorway heights on any of the ten foot ceiling height drawings..

Columbus, thank you! It helps to "see" the options! We are thinking of a stainless range hood rather than a cabinet insert. Also, I was thinking, if I separate the fridge & freezer on the 15' wall, could I do an under cabinet oven and a microwave drawer between them? Then with all of that countertop, would a prep sink work, maybe in the center of the 9' span? That could be horrible, I'm just trying to think through the suggestions and include a second sink closer to the fridge. Luckblueeye, you got me thinking about where I could put the sink...I don't think there is room on the range wall even if I shrunk it to 36" because I would still want it to be centered and that wall is only 9'.

Intodeep...in my last house, I had a 48" range with 2 ovens and I had a combi steam oven. Overkill.

This time I'm doing one 30" wall oven with the combi steam oven above it and a 36" rangetop. Microwave drawer in island.

If you don't cook much, you might consider this configuration.

i like your plan, btw. Would love to see the elevations.

Benjesbride, the foundation is in, the first floor is not framed yet. Red- that sounds like a good idea, I have been considering steam. Thanks!

Intoodeep - you're quite welcome. Do any of those ceiling height drawings appeal to you ? Based on the kitchens in your ideabooks I'm thinking the ten foot ceiling height with the stacked cabinets ?

Due to the size of your kitchen and the surrounding spaces, I think you have quite a few options for refrigeration.

You could do a large refrigerator as a focal point in your kitchen and have secondary refrigeration elsewhere in the kitchen (ref. drawers.)

You could also split the refrigerator units as you had mentioned on the existing refrigerator wall and easily incorporate a sink in between if needed.

You might even consider splitting the refrigerator units and flank your existing sink by the windows. You could then use this as your prep sink and incorporate a secondary sink over on the existing refrigerator wall and turn that area into your clean up area / dish storage.

I'll post some quick drawings of some or all of these options at some point today. Do you like the look of a stainless refrigerator or do you prefer wood panels ?

Christopher @ Columbus Custom Design

Thank you, Christopher! I do like the stacked cabinets, but since we will be doing cherry cabinetry, we had concerns about the white crown/ceiling and the cabinet color. The kitchen/table space area is large, so I don't want the cabinetry to feel too dark and overwhelming. We will have white oak flooring in a lighter, contrasting stain.

I also was looking at the larger range/cooktop not only as a focal point, but Since we are building a very large home, I need to think about resale as well and what would be expected. I'm trying to find a good compromise. We will have wood panels on the dishwashers, but the other appliances will be stainless. We are also leaning towards a stainless farm sink.

thanks again.

Here are two quick drawings showing the split refrigeration you had mentioned - I've shown them on the window wall as this will get the refrigerators out of the main traffic thoroughfare to the right of the range and island. You could potentially store snacks and drinks in the ref. to the left of the sink and your main food items in the ref. to the right of the sink.

I've shown the prep sink on the window wall with the clean up zone on the original refrigerator wall. I've shown a window cutout to the mud room - this could open the two spaces to each other quite a bit and maybe help curb travel into the kitchen to interact with you while you're in there.

Once again, these are both quick drawings to show the basic layout, so they both require a great deal of detailing in terms of cabinet specification, design details, etc.

Please note that with a ten foot ceiling height, your two doorways flanking the range do start to get very high and narrow.

Hi Intoodeep - you're welcome. We must have been typing responses at the same time. I would highly suggest the 48 inch range minimum for a kitchen and a home of your size and quality. You're correct in that this type of home will need to have a minimum level of finishes, appliances, and details.

You might consider a nine foot ceiling in the kitchen with a center ceiling detail that bumps up to ten feet. This would allow the cherry cabinetry to not feel too heavy or overwhelming while still providing a nice expansive ceiling height with an additional focal point / design detail.

I have a version of the kitchen started with this type of ceiling detail - I'll post it as soon as I'm able to finish it up in the next day or so.

Christopher

That's a very interesting idea. I'll have to think about that! Is one of those units a freezer? I think I don't want to remove the main freezer from the kitchen. We also are planning an under cabinet drink refrigerator & pellet icemaker in the cabinet in the table area with a charging station above.

i agree the doors will look a little tall and narrow. My GC does not like 3'0 pocket doors. 2'8" are the largest he is comfortable with...with how heavy they will be and the abuse they will take.

I'd need to research Thermador some more - I've primarily worked with Wolf and SubZero the past thirty years.

I believe the 30 inch Thermador units I had looked at have the refrigerator space above with a freezer drawer below. Would this potentially work ? Perhaps you could then have a secondary freezer in your pantry area ?

I like this last design with the fridge/freezer columns. I think many people separate their columns now- one is the refrigerator and one is the freezer. That would make more sense than having 2 bottom freezer units.

If you are thinking about a range and a steam oven, I highly recommend the Thermador 48 inch steam pro range. It has been a joy to work with.

If you're considering separating the fridge and freezer columns, you could flip the entry doors, and have the columns flank the range. You could have a massive island, with a DW and prep space on each side of the sink. Traffic would flow to each side of the work space, but not through it. Aisles would be 48"+. You could frame the wall to the right to house tall shallow cabinets, if you need the storage space in the kitchen.