I don't think so Sharon, it looks more like a parasitic wasp. I'm not sure of the id but it does appear to be a good guy.

Thanks Patty. Is the insect on the pinwheel also parasitic wasp? Are the white spots on the Bolero rose stem something else? Maybe white flyer aphid larvae? I do have aphids. They are really tiny so I can't tell if they have wings.

I have burnt buds and crumbly leaves, the typical rose midge damage, but don't seem to be catching any. midge I might have to try cups. Maybe the pinwheels aren't large enough even though they're about 3 inches in diameter.

Is there something else that would cause the same type of damage? From all the research I've done and what I've read here it is typical rose midge damage.

Sharon

When my rose midge was at it's absolute worst, I was never able to actually spot the little monsters; and believe me, I looked. My symptoms were very few roses and quite a number of bent and deformed rosebuds..

Thanks Moses for all of your help. The photo was taken with super macro about 3 inches away. These insects are tiny.

Is there anything else that would cause the buds to turn black and soft? Some kind of fungus? Too much rain? Can blind shoots just be a natural occurrence or does every shoot form a rose bud? Is it age related? Most of my roses are ether new this year, or one and two year old own root so still relatively young. My roses get between 5 -5 1/2 hours of mid morning (10:00) to mid afternoon sun (3:00 to 3:30) so maybe that's the reason although I've read that 5 hours is enough for most Kordes roses and some Austins. Buck's 'Folksinger' was in almost constant bloom in these light conditions. The bulk of my roses are Kordes with a handful of Austins and a couple of Julia Child.

Sharon

Very good explanation Mosses

Moses and Patty- here are a couple close-up pics of a Julia cane. I trimmed back some leave to get a better pic. Is this midge or just ordinary unexplained growth damage related to weather, another type of insect or just some normal issues caused by unexplained reasons?

Julia burnt tip

Julia burnt tip close-up

Sharon

Moses or Patty- could this be from thrips? Anything else?

Thanks for any new info.

Sharon

Sharon,

I've seen damage like that hundreds of times. It is classic midge damage.

Until the midge population grows, there are not enough female midges to hit all the growing tips on a bush. Some tips will grow normally.

If the tips are destined to be flowering tips, and midge females don't hit the tip before the developing bud is the size of a large garden green pea, that shoot will continue growing and bloom normally.

Some rose varieties are not targeted as aggressively by midge as others. I have found hybrid teas, and roses who make vigorous growing, husky lateral and basal canes get the heaviest midge pressure on these growths.

Thrips? I don't think so. They usually suck developing green buds so that they don't develop properly. They continue doing damage to buds to the full open stage, if the rose bud can make it to the blooming stage. Often opening is completely halted.

Midge don't let their precious maggots feast on maturing green buds. They are too tough for their delicate chewing mouths, so the midge females lay their eggs in the most tender, easily eaten growing tips. That is why a green bud that's as large as a large garden green pea, or larger is passed over by the midge in preference for more tender growth.....by midge standards.

Moses

Yes Sharon that is the midges. I put down beneficiaI nematodes in spring and fall and sprayed Spinosad on the buds and the budding new growth and I used the cups with Canola oil to finish them off. Thanks again to Patty for posting the pictures last year of the cups. The roses forum has discovered a way to get rid of the Midges without harmful chemicals. Safe for kids and dogs. The chemicals do not work anyway.

Ditto what Moses and Sam said.

I can't tell about the insects on the bloom on top. It's just too small for me to see.

Your welcome Sam, I still get ribbing from the neighbors but I'll survive.

Sharon,

I think I can safely say your greased cups are killing midge flies, even if the insects trapped are difficult to positively identify. After all, they are not mounted museum specimens prepared by an expert entomologist to show the midge in its most perfect condition. The insects are all twisted up through struggling. Body parts fall off. Few can be positively identified easily.

Did you ever think that many mortally greased up insects do not stay stuck to the cups. As they struggle they may free themselves from the cups, but drop to the ground covered in grease where they die.

Some may just brush up against the cups, fly off with some grease on them, only to get 'grease bound' and become immobilized as they try to clean themselves.

The grease may cover their abdomens enough to cause asphyxiation. A little grease goes a long way.. Come see my kitchen range. I'm not known for my domestic skills.

You are killing tons of midge, believe me. Keep it up. Many folks report greased cups as being very effective for thrips and midge. Greased cups are a great weapon in your arsenal for controlling midge.

Moses

That close up of charred looking tip is classic midge. So sorry you have to deal with midge-ugh. You've gotten great responses here but thought I'd also link these photos from Oregon state U with more examples of damage & how to ID larvae.

I've been battling midge for years. I won't use pesticides--not sure they're terribly effective anyway, part of why midge infestation can be such an intractable problem and then you've killed off their natural predators to boot...)

Here's what I found has helped--

1) Diversified my garden over time (less of a rose monoculture);

2) Adequate water/sunshine (healthier roses suffered less midge damage)

3) Learning first sign: Wilting necks on plants you know have adequate water....Midge larvae are in there! Clip off those growing tips, seal & toss in trash --don't compost. (For fun, seal a couple of infected tips in a clear ziplock bag and watch the adult midge emerge and die.)

4) Yes really #3 ---sacrifice some of those precious first blooms of season to knock back midge from the start before they can gain a foothold. With any tip you leave, you multiply your midge problem and by season end you could have no blooms at all. The year I vigilantly clipped those first wilting shoots I had much less midge damage. (Not none, but so much less.)

5) Limit chemical fertilizers. This is speculation/my anecdotal observation that I've had less midge damage the last few years as I've stopped sprinkling osmocote beginning each season. Theorize plant isn't forced so hard to push out all that soft tender nitrogen fueled growth the midge so love.

I wish you luck! You are not alone :)Photos rose midge damage

I have a few tips on 'Quicksilver' that look suspiciously like Enchanted's 'Julia'. It's still in a pot! How far from the plant do the maggots fall and how quickly - do I need to worry about the larvae already being in my planting bed? Could the plant survive, a mere 7-8 weeks before first average frost, if it was planted as bare root? Should I keep this rose, and the two others beside it (all still in pots), in pots for the winter and plant them bare-root in the spring? Could I submerge the entire plant in a 5-gallon bucket for a couple days and kill the larvae?

Quicksilver is the only rose showing these signs - all the others look happy and healthy. It probably has gotten the least amount of water of the three, so is it possible it's just stress? It doesn't quite look like any of the pics in your link, Littlesmokie, and the tips were a bit longer than Enchanted's 'Julia'. I'll take a pic in the morning and post it. I'd rather win this while it's just a skirmish, before it escalates into a full battle, lol.

Ac91z6, I covered the pot's soil with landscape fabric and put the pots on a non-soil surface. One month later... NO midge. This disrupts its life cycle. I also placed plastic around those planted in the ground and am seeing blooms for the first time since spring.

Aha! That's why none of the others were showing anything - they were on the concrete for oh, at least 3 weeks. It was wait for rain or rent a skid-steer with a post-hole digger on my soil lol. Overwintering in pots it is for these guys - a month will be too late to plant here. I'm turning that area into a flowerbed anyway, so the plastic for a month is possible. Would heavy cardboard work as well as plastic over the ground where they are now, to ensure any larvae already in the ground croak?

I can't say for a fact, but I believe cardboard should work just as well as platic. You could also use landscape fabric. I put all my amendments under the plastic.

I don't have much in the way of amendments to add this year (all reserved for holes/top dressing) so that would make it easy to put something down until spring. Whatever I'd use, it would probably need replacing by then anyway. I think the cardboard would go over the existing grass better. I'll just have to make sure it doesn't deteriorate too much over the next month.

Thank you all for your responses. You have been a tremendous help with your amounts of tips and info. I so appreciate you all taking the time to write such detailed responses. I really want to get this under control now and all your responses are valued beyond words!

Should I cut off all the new growth and sacrifice the buds for this year?

Can I leave the larger buds that are showing color or could they possibly have midge and best be sacrificed?

Should I use Permethrin, which I have in concentrate form, or Spinosad. Is one more environmentally friendly than the other? I know permethrin is considered quasi organic but still not benign. I don't drench at all just spray the tips per Moses suggestion.

How can I treat my Cl. Lady Ashe? She's too big to put landscape fabric under. I haven't noticed any burnt tips on her but I'd prefer to be cautious.

Should I rinse and remove the soil from my rose bands before I plant them or pot them up in bagged potting soil?

Patty- thank you for responding so quickly to my many questions and for your numerous posts on how you are winning your battle against midge! The info is invaluable.

Vaorvac- thank you too for answering my questions. I have been slowly planting my roses surrounded by seashells to try to battle the voles. Can midge pupate in this? There is about a two inch thick layer of shells around the roses, underneath and across the top with soil 2 inches below the surface. I have put mulch down to try to help with moisture retention and either plastic or landscape cloth on top extending beyond the leaf canopy. Since you have had success with the plastic/landscape cloth method do you think this is okay? I can't remove the shells since they are my only defense (hopefully) against the voles which have killed more than 20 unprotected roses throughout the winter plus some lilies and coneflowers, hostas and my 2 blueberry bushes!! They are every bit as vile as midges and possibly more damaging since they can kill a rose with a couple of chomps! Too bad we couldn't get them to eat the weeds instead.

LittleSmokie- I use organic fertilizers like Rosetone, Tomatotone, and liquids like Neptune. I do have other flowers in my rose bed but not a vast amount. I'm trying to find small plants that stay in their boundaries. I love G. Rozanne which gets straggly but found I can shape it nicely and it still continues to bloom.I let it act like a small climber where it has the room. G. Biokovo stays small. I also have some small astilbes, prunella on order and Peacock White Phlox due to Patty's glowing recommendations plus some others. Not super diverse but not just roses either. Thanks for the pic links. None of the insects I'm catching look like those but as Moses said ours are not pristine preserved specimens so some probably are midge. At least I hope I'm catching some.

Vaporvac- Did you see a difference between the plastic or the landscape cloth? I bought some really heavy landscape fabric, the one with the green line down the middle. It looks like shiny black burlap on the top side and thickly woven pressed felt on the back. I don't think anything could wiggle through it. It's a very tight weave. It's heavier than plastic so less likely to blow around a lot. I have been pinning the plastic down with florist pins. These work well and are way cheaper than the landscape fabric anchors, 100 for $1.54 plus shipping. Michaels might have these too. I haven't checked but could use a coupon if they do.

https://www.createforless.com/FloraCraft-Pins-Floral-1.75-100-piece/pid159775.aspx

Moses-thanks for all your info. And no I didn't think that those that got away would be mortally wounded. Too focused on the problem I guess to think rationally. I'm actually using yellow and blue pinwheels. I wonder if I should try cups instead? The pinwheels are pretty big but maybe not the best shape? They are 4 1/2 inches across. Some do have quite a few insects stuck to them others not so many. They seem to be working. Maybe not all of my roses have midge yet? That would be wonderful. I planted some DA barefoot so they wouldn't come in with midge, would they? If I follow your spraying regiment when is the best time? Early morning? Late afternoon. I know Spinosad and permethrin are toxic to bees so I don't want to be hurting the good guys. I don't want to burn the rose leaves either.

Samuel- thanks for your info. Where did you purchase the beneficial nematodes? I would like to try this. I called a place in Canada but they don't really ship to the USA. Could you post a source please? :-)

Act9- I completely submerged my roses for a few hours and had severe damage to the leaves of Kordes Floral Fairytale. One completely defoliated. It is suggested to rinse/remove all the potting soil from the root system which another poster Rebecca does before planting or purchase only bare root plants. Maybe rinsing in water with some permethrin or Spinosad would help too.

Again, a huge thank you to all :-)

Sharon

I got the beneficiaI nematodes from nature's good guys. I heard about them from Mark, on I am Organic, on you tube. He learned from Dr Elaine Ingham. He teaches the no till gardening using the living plant root to improve the soil. Here's Mark looking under the microscope at the nematodes he purchased from nature's good guys in California. https://youtu.be/18HriHYr53A here is a list of things to control Midge. Feel free to add to the list any suggestions you might come across. Or where to get the other bugs. Pray to the almighty to defeat them. We will smoke em with tobacco, zap them with electric dynatrap blue light and defeat these Midges with spiders, neem spray of Spinosad on every bud, Dalotia,Athetacoriaria, Strateolaelaps preditor mites ,beneficiaI nematodes, tangle foot blue cups on all four points of the compass yellow sticky traps paper and Soil covering paper.

Sharon,

I think the pinwheels are the ideal shape. Their multi faceted surfaces face the environment at varying angles so midges flying by are perhaps more likely to get trapped. Midge may be looking for a more horizontal surface on which to land which a pinwheel provides. Also, a greased cup has primarily vertical surfaces. Perhaps when the midge mate a horizontal surface is preferred so they, may be more prone to pass by a cup and land on a pinwheel. You may get 'two for one', using pinwheels. I'm theorizing this, no concrete info on these points.

I have read that midge habituate near the ground primarily. I would place some of your pinwheels a couple inches above ground level and see if you trap more midge down low over those higher up.

I try to spray the Bayer Complete Insect Control, one tablespoon per gallon of water, when no sunlight is hitting the roses, and the temperature is below 80 degrees F. The evening is ideal. I believe the slower the insecticide is absorbed, the more effective it is. In full sunlight the quicker evaporation may give the foliage less time to be adequately uptake the insecticide.

Remember, the Bayer is a systemic. It is absorbed into the rose. It kills first by contact to any insect it hits, and secondly, when they eat plant tissue. The midge maggot is incredibly tiny when it first hatches. Its first mouthfuls of treated rose tissue do it in, and the damage these first bites do to the rose is also infinitesimal.....of little consequence.

You only spray the growing tips, and just to the drip stage. Spraying the entire bush is unnecessary. Spray all growing tips with green buds up to the time these buds are the size of a large green pea. After this size, the midge will lay its eggs elsewhere.

Bayer is systemic, but it does not translocated to new, or extending growth. These must be sprayed again. I spray every week to 10 days when the roses are growing vigorously.

It takes so little time to spray, because only the tips get hit. It almost takes more prep and clean up time, than the time spent spraying.

Pay careful attention to spraying extending canes. They grow extremely quickly, and the expanding tip gets vulnerable very quickly since the systemic Bayer does not translocate to fresh, extended growth.

Any midged tip should be cut off down to a point on the midged stem that will support vigorous new growth. The cut midged tips should be placed in plastic bags and placed into the household trash.

Moses

Moses- is it safe to leave mature buds to bloom? Or should I remove those too? I have some that are showing color so are these past midge attraction? I'd hate to lose all my blooms if it's not necessary but will do so if it will help to keep the midge from spreading more.

I'll get back to this later. Our dog has a vet appt. at 11:00 but I'll post more when I get back.

Sharon

Sharon,

Absolutely yes, let the mature buds bloom. They are midge fly maggot free, and do not attract female midge. They do not harbor or attract midge at any stage beyond the large green pea sized green rosebud, all the way to petal drop of a finished bloom.

Moses

I want to report that the one smaller (1 year) Fiji rose bush with the black heavy landscape fabric underneath has put on some new growth BUT some of the leaves are starting to turn yellow...Not sure if its because of it being later in season or cause of the landscape fabric...??? I left the fabric underneath for now if things start turning more ugly I'll remove it...

Jim,

It could be heat build up, or to much moisture in the soil, that is what could be causing the yellowing foliage.

Moses

Jim- could it be transplant shock? All of my Kordes look sickly this year. Some have black spot this year when they didn't last year. Have you had lots of rain and cooler temps in PA like we have had in MA? It's been very humid here but cool, perfect temps for fungal diseases.

Moses- Thanks for again responding so quickly and for all your info. I found Bayer Advanced 700270 Complete Insect Killer for Soil and Turf Concentrate, 40-Ounce at Amazon. It has Imidacloprid and B-Cyfluthrin. Is that the one you use. Amazon has a 40 oz for $23.20

https://www.amazon.com/Bayer-Advanced-Complete-Concentrate-40-Ounce/dp/B001DKEOK8

I'll try staggering the pinwheels at different heights to see if this helps. The ones with the spray Tanglefoot have caught quite a few insects. I have blue ones too for thrips. Should these be low too?

Sharon

Vaporvac- did you spray or coat the plastic/ landscape cloth with oil too? I wonder if this would trap the falling larvae? I have some store brand cooking spray and might try a thin coat. Anything is worth it to get this under control before it becomes out of control. I rinsed all of my new bands to remove all the soil and potted in bagged soil. The pots are enclosed in plastic bags that is "stapled" down around the soil.

Samuel- thanks for the link to the video. I'll be watching it soon. Which 200 nematodes blend did you buy. None mention rose midge but some mention gall midge. Will it keep over the winter or do I buy more in the spring?

Sharon

Jim, I agree it is probably transplant shock since you just did that. I can't think of any reason why fabric would encourage that. Even plastic has has no negative effect in my garden.

I don't know what additional benefit oil would add as the midge larvae will die from exposure or be eaten. The shells should be great as there is nothing in which the larvae can pupate. I think maybe they need the moisture of soil. Enchanted, can you turn on your private messaging so I can tell you how to prepare the TT you asked about in another post?

vaporvac- at the risk of sounding like an idiot how do I turn private messaging on?

vaporvac- I googled how and set it up. I hope it works.

Sharon

U did it!

I did not transplant that Fiji rose with yellow leaves... That was planted July of last year...I have two Fiji rose bushes...One I transplanted recently BUT not the one I posted pics of above...

We had tons of rain this year and even so very recently...

Just looked yellowing spreading so I'm going to remove the fabric just in case...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to clarify...

Black FABRIC is working ok under our mature D. KO...

But much smaller Fiji rose the leaves are yellowing at a fast rate so removing fabric from under it...

Thanks.

Sharon,

The Bayer product you described is exactly the one I use.

Believe me when I tell you, thrips are not a problem in my garden. I cannot figure out why. I'm just very grateful that up to now, thrips are not an issue. I really don't know the life cycle, or natural habits of thrips since my roses are not bothered by them.

There may be a day soon, hopefully never, when I will have to quickly learn all about thrips.

As you learn to identify the various little insects that make it easier to identify by not squirming so much when they get stuck, you will see if the lower placed traps are effectively/better placed.

Strangely, I have very little Japanese Beetle damage also. I counted about 5 JBs this year. I think it is because I live in a very old city neighborhood where lawns are few and very small. Turf grass is the Japanese Beetle's prime nursery ground.

Most homes here were built well before the beginning of the automobile age. Therefore they have no garages, even today. Car pads and street parking are where cars are parked. Those very few families who added a garage basically eliminated their tiny backyards. I believe there are so few garages because of the dominant ethnic group being Italian. Italians love gardening, and their gardens supersede garages.

Moses

Thanks Moses- We moved to the rural town we live in in 1985. The minimum lot size is 1- 1 1/2 acre. Most have ALL lawn!! We have no lawn at all just raised beds, regular beds and woods. I'm relatively close to Mike Lowe's NH rose garden and went there several years ago before he died. I told him I had JB's and had never seen one until I planted a rose. He asked if we had wild grapes in the area. They are everywhere. He told me JB's eat wild grapes but they love roses. Last year we had some JB's. This year I saw around 5 like you. I wonder if they cycle. Our winter was pretty much the same as last winter with good snow cover although the ground never seemed to freeze. My aunt died in early January and they were able to dig her grave. My friend died in late February and they were able to dig her grave. Maybe the weird weather messed up the JB's life cycle somehow. I don't know enough about them to know if weather affects them or if their populations cycle. It's a small blessing that they're not attacking my roses along with midge. I'll take it.

I'll order the Bayer today and follow your regimen along with the plastic and landscape fabric. And keep the pinwheels closer to the ground. Hopefully I'll "nip this in the bud" ;-) before it takes hold of my garden.

Sharon

Moses, I was never bothered by thrips either...Well not until late season 2016...Then 2017 its been Rose Midge & Thrips galore....

From articles I read I do not think there is any method that will TOTALLY rid a garden of rose midge once they are established... Constant battle I'm afraid...

Samuel and Jim- definitely something to think about. But Moses might have rose midge because neighbors have it in their gardens. How do you control what your neighbors do or don't do? Look at how RRV is spread. Some posters here have written almost crying in despair of neighbors having diseased roses yet refusing to do anything about it. I hate using pesticides but I want to try to get this under control before it takes over my garden. I live in a very rural neighborhood. The nearest house is about 300 feet away through the woods. I think I'm the only rose grower on our road so the rose midge have had to come in from either a nursery or mail order roses unless they eat native plants too. We don't even have any multiflora rose near my house. So I may be able to contain this by using all the methods available and due diligence in the future. Rinsing all the soil from my mail order roses and possibly full submersion in water for a short period of time or buying bare root own root roses. I'm also using the cups and covering the planting area with plastic or landscape fabric. Some of my roses came with spider mites a couple years ago. I had never had spider mites before. The only pests I had were aphids, grasshoppers, JB's and voles, can't forget the voles.

Sharon

Wish I could help. Maybe Patty or Moses will answer but it doesn't look like what I'm seeing on my roses. I know black pots dry out quickly because they absorb so much heat.

Sharon

Hmmm. I can't tell with your pics, but it does look like it may be midge. Could you get some photos that zero in on the growing tips?

I'll get some better ones tonight - I just have my phone's camera, so they'll never be great pics, but looking at these I'm sure I can do better!

edited - too dark when I got off work tonight, I'll have to try again tomorrow.

By using the cups I mostly eliminated rose midges too.

Thanks again for Patty and fragrance nutter coming up with a method to eliminate Midge without Spraying harmful chemicals. Chemicals just kills all the beneficiaI bugs, spiders, toads and makes the problem worse.

Samuel- thanks for the info. I'm on the fence about spraying. I don't have the severe infestation that Moses has so hopefully the cups and plastic/landscape fabric will be enough. I'm in the process of replanting my roses and have been rinsing the root system before I replant or pot them up for planting later. I might even resort to cutting back all new growth next spring as a precaution. Such a horrible scourge!!

Sharon

ok, I got some some better pics this morning. I'll start a new thread, to stop clogging up yours Enchanted.

ac91z6- It doesn't matter but thanks anyway.