Thanks, Yardvaark. I'd prefer permeable, but you are saying best endurance would be pavers on top of a concrete base? Could you elaborate on other ways to have pavers? We have concrete block for a terrace and a patio, but obviously the apron takes a much worse beating from cars -- and street plows.

No. I'm saying concrete, plain or decorative (depending on your budget) will be most durable if tree roots are not a factor. If tree roots are possible, pavers on a tamped aggregate base (think driveway gravel) will probably work better.

Pavers are more permeable than solid concrete because there is a leaky joint between every paver. The "grass block" type of paver that allows grass to be grown in a paved area I would not recommend. They settle a lot over time, especially when vehicles drive on them.

Thank you. This is very helpful. I've started looking at stamped concrete as less expensive, but still prettier than plain white. I'm concerned about water eroding pavers on tamped aggregate. If I have to have concrete, I might as well save the expense of the pavers! I guess 300 square feet of anything won't make a huge difference in runoff; the house is 100 feet away.

I don't think tree roots will be a problem. The American Elm near the apron is about 100 years old. (We inject it alternate years, trying to keep it living.)

If by "water eroding" you mean that they will tear apart and wash the pavers away ...?? This is not going to happen but depends on a solid, well installed edge restraint, and there is not erosion that exposes and "uninstalls" the edge restraint. If the restraint is compromised, then the paver field will begin to tear away ... like how a sock with a torn thread will soon become a hole.

There are simple, handsome effects that can be created with plain concrete by scoring .... a 12" border around the entire piece, for an example, or creating a pattern of large squares on a diagonal or straight axis.

We have a well-recommended mason coming this morning to look at the project. Glad to know about 'restraints' in advance of that conversation. Are these like the metal edging along the edges of our gravel driveway?

I can see that the apron area needs to be re-graded so that the apron sheds water from uphill to downhill. Currently, rainwater collects briefly in the uphill corner nearest the street

Lake Michigan once extended many miles west of its current shore. We are about 1.5 miles west of the lake. There is an underground river that runs behind our property's back lot line to the 'creek', which was dug deeper a century ago to drain what was then farmland here.

It's interesting to me to know all the factors necessary to create a lasting installation. I appreciate your help!

Conceptually, a paver restraint is similar to the metal edging along a drive. Like the metal edge, it keeps pavers from migrating away from the drive and into the yard. As long as they are held tightly, the paved surface will be nice, hard & smooth. If pavers migrate away, the driveway will develop ruts and bumps. Paver restraint is set lower than the paver surface so that it doesn't show. Modern restraints are plastic strips which are pinned to the ground with spikes. Old school restraints (which works well when PROPERLY applied) is a bead of concrete applied by hand.

Thanks to your information on restraints, I was able to question the mason we saw this morning about them. He uses plastic restraints with 12" spikes eight inches apart. He warned against low bidders using cheap concrete blocks that will disintegrate rapidly. I think is what we happened to the apron across the street. That apron has been replaced with scored, pebbled concrete, but now it has a crack in one corner, likely from a snow plow.

I'm back to preferring block pavers over stamped concrete.

Thanks for making me sound like I know what I'm talking about!

You might also like to know that concrete pavers come in varying thickness. The standard is about the same thickness as a common brick. Then next thickness jumps up to about the thickness of a 2x4 and is meant for areas that receive heavy traffic. If you have a concern about heavy vehicles possibly damaging the apron, you might consider the heavy version. Of course, it's more material and more labor so will cost more. But it will endure about anything.

Thank you. I believe this man uses the 'brick' size. I don't have his bid yet. We don't get heavy traffic. Snowplows may be the biggest threat.

The base thickness and compaction mean a lot to the durability of pavers. Base could be heavier/thicker in the apron area if needed.

Yardvaark always gives absolutely stellar advice but since I'm in Chicago as well I'll pitch in with some additional information for you that could help.

If you are going to do modular brick (concrete) pavers of any kind then I would probably recommend total excavation of about 14". On the excavated earth install a 5-ounce geotextile fabric, then about 11" of CA-6 gravel compacted in 2" lifts. You would then lay a bedding course of FA-2 sand at an approximate depth of 1" and then your actual brick.

See Yardvaark's most recent post regarding thickness and compaction......those are the two primary keys for success although every installation is singular to the existing conditions.

Remember that not all brick pavers are meant for vehicular traffic, but your contractor will be able to guide you through the selection process.

There are tons of manufacturer's but in the Chicago market the big players for modular paving brick are Unilock, Belgard, Rochester Concrete and Techo-Bloc. If you are using natural clay brick then the routinely accessible pavers are Belden, Endicott, Whitacre Greer, Pine Hall and Glen Gery.

You can link to any of their websites easily. Good luck with your project!

She's BACK! New question on materials.

OK, we now have bid of $6K to tear out old asphalt apron, lay new, add 2 tons of bluestone chips to existing driveway of 800 sq ft. (After 16 years, the chips have settled and the base gravel is an eyesore.)

I went to a supply yard today. They carry Unilock. The only thing I like in their 2017 catalog is Courtstone in a multi-shape blend of Basalt, Belgian Blue and Dawn Mist. (Page 35 shows an installation, but with a border, which I do not want.) Just two colors would be fine, too. It's only 300 sq ft of apron.

Or...and here comes the question...they have old grey granite street pavers @ $3 per. (Not "Chicago brick", granite.)

The bid is for blocks. Would this be a cost wash? Any problems with the multi-color roughly shaped reclaimed pavers? I assume the manufactured blocks are easier to lay, right? They have 'platform bases' to abut the blocks, making spacing easy?

Pros and Cons, please? Cost adjustment to bid?

K&D -- Thanks for the great *extra* information! Our bid is from F&M Masonry; two years ago he remedied our contractor's bad job on our block patio and terrace.

Chisue:

Old granite street pavers look outstanding under most circumstances. If the apron is done in the old granite and the primary drive is in bluestone chips I think that would be a handsome combination. Although most brick installations today receive polymeric sand , you could blend the aesthetics and use bluestone chips in the joints of the reclaimed granite pavers.

Check with F&M, but my best guess (from a distance) is that the reclaimed granite pavers will be more expensive than Courtstone. It takes more time to lay granite because each paver is not a clone of the next paver. The granite is also the more expensive of the two products.

That being said, the granite will age gracefully and with character. Even the best modular products, and Courtstone is one of Unilock''s premium products, have a life expectancy from exposure to the elements.

Best of luck with the project. Post a photo or two when it's done.

K&D -- Thank you so much for the input. I don't like 'new'. I don't want the apron to have a pretty pattern -- like a floor. We will have to see if/how much the pavers change the bid.

It's funny. I wanted the apron to look like 'an bit of old street'. Can't get closer than an *actual* ''old street'. The man at Menoni understood what I wanted when I showed him a photo of the driveway at a 1930's home. I didn't know it was pavers, but it is.

Boy, are those pavers HEAVY!

I noted your idea of chips within the apron, but 'plain' is more my style.

Chuckling....yes, the granite pavers ARE heavy! You'll need something in the joints, whether it's sand or chips as the joints will be fairly large. Regardless of fill, the granite pavers will be a wonderful look and, who knows, maybe your great grandchildren will be re-purposing them again some day.

Again, best of luck with your project!

Ack! I may have to 'dial back' on this project. I sent a 'hold up' email to F&M today. There's too much I still don't know about the materials.

Original bid for "Brussels Block" on our 300 sq ft apron...$4590.

Courtstone"...$5890.

Recycled granite pavers...$6590.

At least I know I do *not* want the bland Brussels Block! I don't know if the bid on Courtstone is all-same-size or what I want, multiple shapes as on p. 35 of the Unilock brochure. The Courtstone example shows a lot of mortar (?) between the blocks. Not good?

Unilock also has a Town Hall, but I don't know the price on laying that. If I wanted that paver look, is there some rationale for 'fakes' over the actual, recycled granite?

Sorry to keep bugging you. I absorb better by reading, and there's a little language barrier with F&M due to my being limited to English.

ChiSue:

I'll bullet point my thoughts and some information to make it a bit easier.

+ First, let me say that I would consider $6,590 a VERY good price on recycled granite pavers though it may be a shocker when compared to Brussels Block.

+ That is almost assuredly polymeric sand in the joints of the Courtstone and is completely normal. You can copy and paste the link below, which will show you the Unilock colors for Courtstone and also let you interactively apply different color sand for different aesthetics. https://unilock.com/products/driveways/courtstone-2/?region=2 

+ Courtstone and Town Hall are both premium products. In the modular paving world they don't get much better than those two options. Of the two, I am more fond of Town Hall and I have used both on multiple occasions.

+ That being said, all modular paving will eventually experience some level of fading over a long period of time. The granite is forever.

+ Both Courtstone and Town Hall will price somewhere between the Brussels Block and the recycled granite pavers. The cost difference between Courtstone and Town Hall is not significant, though Town Hall is the more expensive of the two.

+ Rationale for selecting a specific product is something you will have to establish for yourself. :) Again, good luck and post a photo when it's finished.

We are 'on hold' until Tuesday. I think we will add to the bluestone chip after this winter has taken its toll and go ahead now with the granite pavers. I'm not sure how they should be laid: Horizontal to the street? Vertical? In a pattern? (Pretty small area.)

How ironic to see a story in the Chicago Tribune home section today about paving driveways! At issue was how to successfully use silicone sand with pigmented blocks.

The granite street pavers are an awesome choice. Small areas usually look a bit better with simpler pattern solutions.

I'll check out the Tribune article when I click out of here..........glad you mentioned it. Again, post a photo when you get the granite done!