I think you sound well informed, especially about considering the way you use your ovens. You've answered a lot of the questions we typically grill a new poster with.

I have one full sized oven and two small, and love the versatility. Both small ovens also have other functions (one steam, one speed). Plus, recently I've added immersion circulators to my bag of tricks, which are great for getting the meat out of the oven, for not having to have a precise serving time, and for just making wonderful meats. I have never thought I needed another big oven. I use mine a lot--some people just use their small ovens--but my smallest oven also holds a huge amount, just in a different way than the big one. I do spend some time during menu planning deciding what will be cooked where. But none of that has anything to do with you. You've already figured out what works for you, and you shouldn't base your decision on what works for me, or anyone else.

All ranges have pluses and minuses. You've done well setting criteria and narrowing it down.

We used to have a number of people putting in AR ten years ago. I think it's not sexy like all the colors available for Blue Star. Have you contacted Trevor at Eurostoves? Or at least looked at the info on their website? They sell or have sold both Capital and Blue Star and should be a good resource for helping you be sure about your decision.

I don't think Wolf AGs are actually neglected, though they seem to have been putting more weight behind more residential-ish, less beasty ranges. Do they still have open burner? I thought they did away with them, but maybe that was just the DF?

What exactly is it about the BS that's giving you qualms? Which AR would you get if there weren't a BS and why?

You say you want a large oven, but specifically what do you want to fit in it? Many here want to fit full size baking sheets or at least two half sheets side by side. Wolf is smaller and those won't fit like that. In the Thermador DF they have a 60" with a 30" plus a 36" oven. I haven't had my coffee yet but that is some interesting math there. The 36" side holds a full sheet but not the 30" The BS and Capital ranges hold full sheets in the 30" ovens.

The platinum does have the element in back. I am not sure this evens the heat or if you would always want to. This makes the heat come from a different direction than every other oven. No bottom element. This also means the convection fan never shuts off all the way. Even in the off position, it runs whenever the burner comes on. Some things like pies do better with heat from the bottom. Cake recipes for the most part were also developed with heat from the bottom. Some seem to work ok in convection but some do not. Convection changes the direction of the air currents and accelerates drying therefore setting of the crust and browning. There are several threads about the Platinum. Gas ovens already vent more of the moisture from the combustion of gas and what you are cooking out so more drying. I would want to be able to turn the fan off.

As far as gas vs electric ovens, it is important to understand the differences so you can choose what fits the way you use your oven. Your needs might be very different from my needs.

There are several things to consider about the burners. You said you want an open burner but haven't ruled out sealed burners. The American Performer has a semi sealed/open tray. It disassembles in that it lifts off in one piece for cleaning and is like a sealed burner in that it comes up very close to the burner. The design is appealing for some because it also has the characteristics of an uncapped, star shaped burner like BS. Unfortunately American has not gotten good reviews on service and some of the reviews on the oven say it is uneven. You can look at videos on YouTube to see how to clean BS and the Capital Culinarian.

Wolf used to have what they called a "semi open" burner in their AG range. The tray did break down for cleaning but it was a capped burner. They discontinued it a few years ago.

Other aspects of the burners (capped vs uncapped, star vs ring, BTUs low and high, stacked burners) would depend on your cookware. What is it made of and how big are your pans? What type of cooking do you do?

There is a lot of marketing of features and benefits but you have to determine what is true and what utility these have for you. Prioritize what you use the most and try to determine what the work arounds might be.

I would search on this forum some of the ranges you are looking at because there has been a lot written on them.

My question is why do you want a 60 inch range ? Do you expect to use all those burners at once. One thing many of us go for is a simplistic range - I went with the BS RNB - it has very little in the way of electronics, meaning hopefully less to break. LIke plllog, I have a separate combi oven ( steam and convection ) it is much smaller so it heats up much quicker, and is packed full of electronics - so if I want baked sweet potatoes ready when I walk in from work, I put them in the oven in the morning and program it so they will be done when I walk in. Also, it gives me the option to steam or combi cook. If you need the burners on a 60 inch range, then go for it, but if you don't, I suggest you consider having a separate oven as well to give you the extra capacity, and variety of cooking modes. BTW, like plllog, I also had an immersion circulator, which allows for nearly unlimited cooking volume, though you do want the burners to sear the meat or fish when it is done.

You say you have the room for a 60" range, but how much room are we talking about? And why do you think you probably want all gas instead of duel fuel? Actually, having never had a gas oven, if anybody here thinks all gas is preferable to dual fuel I'd like to hear your reasons why. Assuming you can't bake in a gas oven during a power outage (like I said, I've never had a gas oven so please correct me if that assumption is incorrect!), the only advantage I can think of would be that natural gas is cheaper in your area than electricity.

BTW: I wish you guys had been around in '99 for my big kitchen redo. If you were and I just didn't know about it, I'll kick myself!

To the OP - you did not mention the hood requirements for the 60" range. You will need 1200 cfms in that hood, given the class of powerful ranges you are looking at like the Bluestar. You will need to make sure you have the correctly-sized ductwork to go from the hood to outside your house, which is a 10" diameter not smaller. You will also likely need a make-up air system, which is going to be costly. Just wanted to make sure you thought of this in concert with your consideration of the 60" range.

Most people who think they need a 60" actually don't need any such thing. They want it. But they may not understand the impact of that want in the overall budget once ventilation and make up air needs are put into the equation. A 72" hood is no cheap little ''incidental'' to pick up down at Home Cheapo. A 48" range usually suffices for what they need. Or, a 36"-48" range top and double ovens. Even that has expensive ventilation needs. Just not restaurant level air moving that exhausts all of your home's heat in about 8 minutes flat. They take about 15 minutes to do that.

I live in the San Diego area and I'm in a similar situation - renovating a kitchen in a home that's only 8 years old. The builder did a good job for conventional cheapo appliances and cabinets. But the good news is I saw and photographed the house under construction is so I know where all of the plumbing, mechanical and electrical is and I also have a set of plans for the house. All that said, I'm only planning a 36" AG range (either BS or Capital) and a 30" electric double wall-oven setup. Gas produces moist heat (better for roasts) and electricity produces dry heat (better for baking). Full-size sheet pans go in the 36" range and half-sheet pans go in the wall ovens (unless i get a 30" BS oven). The range will be 6 burners with a single oven. For a griddle, I'll get a portable one that goes on top - stainless steel griddles are a PAIN to clean, likewise with indoor char broilers. Here in San Diego, we BBQ outside year-round, so no need for an indoor charbroiler. We are planning the Electrolux all-refrigerator/all-freezer setup (we buy at Costco a lot) and two dishwashers - one in the island where the prep sink is and another by the cleanup sink on another wall. There are two paperback books I HIGHLY recommend and I've known these folks for years and are terrific kitchen designers. The first is called Kitchen Design with Cooking in Mind by Donald Silvers and the second is Kitchen Appliances 101 by Donald Silvers and Moorea Hoffman. Don passed on a few years ago, but his design principles were born out of being a professional chef for many years - things like point of use storage, 30" base countertops, and spending money where it needs to be spent - in appliances and in cabinets that have baked conversion varnish finishes. His Goddaughter Moorea Hoffman, took over his business and she's in NorCal now and can be found at www.kitcheneering.com. Good luck!

Thank you, Frieda, for giving me your take on the great cooking fuel debate. I know a lot about a lot of things, but I sure don't pretend to know everything about anything! :)

I have a baby AR range (30"). The range is fine but you have to be able to fix it yourself because customer service is terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible.

If you're splurging on 60" of cooking and ventilating, splurge a little more and buy from a better company.

I have recommended Don Silvers book on kitchen planning many times over the years just last week someone mentioned it. It is an oldie but goodie. I planned my kitchen with it.

"Gas produces moist heat(better for roasts)...electricity produced dry heat (better for baking)"

It is is true that the combustion of gas produces some water as a byproduct and an electric element produces none. There are other factors that determine the humidity of the oven though. The food being cooked can be a big source of humidity. Gas ovens because of combustion are ventilated a lot more than gas so lose a lot of the moisture from combustion, the food and any added for steam. It also puts more heat into the kitchen. You may see some vapor initially when you start the oven but when it is heated and air currents are going you have a lot of evaporative loss to the surface of what you are cooking. Electric ovens are not vented near as much so hold more moisture from what is cooked. The drying effect of a gas oven removes superficial water from meat so promotes the Maillard reaction, so browning. This is why it is good for roasting. In an electric oven, the increased humidity promotes starch gelatinization so allows a little bit longer rise in things that need to rise, so good for that aspect of baking. It will also hold onto added humidity. At some point, for some people browning is good for baking too. if you have a fan, in the oven, this is especially helpful in an electric oven. I read a blog from a professional baker where at home, halfway through baking a cake in an electric oven, he opened the door to the oven to let humidity out and then turned on the fan to brown his cake. I have also seen this recommended for bread baking. How much you notice these differences in humidity may depend on what oven you have used. If you have always cooked with gas you may have developed a set of recipes that work well with gas and vice versa.

For Sammy, I don't think one type of oven gas or electric is better than another. They each have different characteristics that will benefit different people. One difference no one has mentioned is the broiler. Regular gas broilers are not that great but the gas infrared broiler is very hot and even within the area it covers. On the other hand it can be small and some like the width of a good multi pass electric broiler.

What makes something a "hot" issue is when someone insists that one particular burner or oven is the only possibility if you are a "serious cook".

Wow, thank you for all of the comments. I am humbled by the knowledge of everyone here. I am really into exotic cars and know the ins and outs of them but don't know nearly as much about appliances so I am truly thankful for the input.

To answer several questions as to why/if I "need" a 60" range, the answer is that it is definitely not a need. As Sophie noted, it is want. By going with a 60" range we will be able to do away with our wall ovens which will free up some much needed cabinetry storage space. We have a lovely space for it in between a SZ built in all freezer and built in all refrigerator and that budget for one will not be an issue. I have always liked them and my wife, who is heavily involved in interior design as a hobby, really wants one in this implementation as well. So it is definitely a luxury purchase and I am beyond blessed to be in a position to make such a purchase.

Pillog: I have read enough about AR that I don't think they are in the running anymore. I am fine with spending a little more to get a better product. Thank you for the Eurostoves recommendation.

Wekick: Thank you for all of your suggestions. You made a number of points that I had not yet considered, including the size delta on the ovens of the various ranges. I looked at some Wolf ranges this weekend but did not realize how much smaller the oven cavity was as opposed to the BS range. I am pretty much set on open burners at this point. My cookware is the usual stainless tri ply All-Clad stuff with some Lodge cast iron thrown in for good measure. Our cooking is fairly varied although I will admit that we are rank amateurs compared to many on this board. We are trying to learn however. I have been reading through the archives as to the various ranges that I am considering and am learning as quickly as I can but the learning curve is steep and much of the information is regarding older models. Thank you for your help.

Frieda and Sophie: planning on getting a 60 inch vent hood with a 1200 CFM blower motor. You are right that I hadn't really thought about a make up air system and likely won't do it to be honest. Should the requirement present itself I will crack a door.

Fori: Thanks. I am leaning away from AR because of your input and others. I don't mind fixing stuff myself and do it on my cars all the time but would prefer not to do so unless I have to.

planning on getting a 60 inch vent hood with a 1200 CFM blower motor.

60" is not wide enough. You need a minimum of a 66" wide hood and a 72" is probably better for a 60" range.

You are right that I hadn't really thought about a make up air system and likely won't do it to be honest. Should the requirement present itself I will crack a door.

You will need to do it because for anything over 400 cfm it is required by code.

Actually MUA is not required by Code everywhere, only some areas. Regardless of Code requirements, the OP needs to do MUA with 1200 cfms because that much suckage carries with it the risk of sucking back CO into the house, i.e. backdraft. It's a serious risk because with that much cfms pulling air out of the house, other exhausts will be pulled in, like from the water-heater, furnace, chimney and dryer vent. That backdraft is bringing poisonous carbon monoxide into the home. You can get away with no MUA with an exhaust that is 400-600 cfms and if your house is drafty and not a newer super-insulated house. But not at 1200 cfms.

At 1200 cfms, cracking a window will not be enough. You will need to install an MUA system. Either add that to the expense of your renovation, or choose a different cooking setup. People not willing to install MUA is a main reason why people forego the 60" ranges and their exhaust requirements, and opt instead for a 36" rangetop and separate ovens.

MUA IS required everywhere that a range hood discharges 300CFM and above. And it needs to be planned into the overall budget. Ventilation and MUA can be more expensive than the range itself if someone is in a cold climate and needs an HRV system capable of dealing with 1200 CFM of heated air leave g the house.

If you buy a 60" range - see if it comes with wheels. I have a 4' flexible commercial gas line.

"My cookware is All clad triply and cast iron"

You would benefit from the star shaped burner in the BlueStar. CI in particular does not conduct heat as well as well as something like copper or aluminum. The AC varies depending on the line. The star burners distribute the heat more, especially if sized to the pan.

Do the makeup air so you don't have to think about it. You know...if you're gonna splurge on 1200+cfm, etc etc. :)

I like having different sized ovens--smaller ones heat up faster and bigger ones, well, are bigger. I'd mark that down as a positive feature of a range. Different oven sizes means flexibility.

Ok ok, you guys talked me into a MUA. I would've never thought about it but after reading all of the comments here and reading about it, it would definitely be needed as I have a relatively new house and do have a gas water heater and would be worried about backdraft from the exhaust chimney. I think I have a pretty good idea as well to repurpose my existing downdraft ventilation ducting into a MUA pathway.

Geoffrey: I believe the ranges that I am looking at come with rear casters.

I am looking into getting a speed oven now to compliment the BS and to replace my current toaster oven and microwave. However, the more I am reading, it might be good to still have a separate microwave. That is probably better suited to another thread. Decisions decisions.

In a big project like this, you should be working with a good local KD.

And then once you have a kitchen plan you should vet it on the kitchen forum

Unfortunately I live in a fairly rural area so I am not sure that KD is an option. I will look around though and will definitely vet the plan on the kitchen forum.

Bill,

I suggest you contact Moorea Hoffman at www.kitcheneering.com. She lives in rural Northern California but does design work all over the place. Good luck.