Welcome Helene,

" Also, I am wondering if it's possible to cross a gem marigold with a larger flowered type marigold, anyone here know? "

I don't know. One possibility is that they have different chromosome numbers and the hybrids would be triploids. There has been a triploid commercial marigold, but I don't know ifl it is currently available. Triploids are sterile, so they don't need to be dead-headed, so they can have a much longer blooming period. Google your question, but also do the crosses as an experiment.

" Both zinderella peach and lilac seem to be quite variable. They are
supposed to be a scabious type but many plants produce single flowers
and one plant has so many layers that it is cone like. "

Your experience with the Zinderellas is typical of what everybody is seeing, and it is typical of commercial scabious zinnias in general.. You are lucky to have a few good ones, which puts you in a good position to use them as breeders. Seed saved from the "good ones" are more likely to produce good progeny. Crosses made with the good ones are also more likely to produce interesting results.

" I'm not sure if they are open pollinated or a hybrid so I'm wondering
the best way to save seed for next year. Should I hand pollinate or
cross the best specimens? Or just select seed from the best ones? "

Since such a high percentage are "bad", it is highly likely that they are open pollinated. If they were true F1 hybrids, we would expect a much higher percentage of on-type plants. I suggest doing both hand pollinations and saving selfs. The central portions of scabious zinnia blooms consist of modified pollen florets, so you can use tweezers to "fish out" some usable pollen from them to cross with other zinnias. The guard petals are more conventional petals, and have conventional stigmas that you can pollinate. Many of the central scabious florets will produce selfed seeds from their internal stigmas.

Scabious zinnia blooms are functionally a bit complicated, but they offer you several breeding opportunities. Do cross them both ways with your best Oklahoma Salmon specimens. The Oklahomas have good floriferous plants that could produce an excellent gene mix with the Zinderellas. You could get some interesting F1 hybrids, and an interesting variety of F2 recombinants. Crosses with scabious genes can yield zinnia forms that resemble Echinaceas or other flowers (that near-white one reminds me of a waterlily). These are pictures from previous years.

ZM

Wow! Thanks for all the detailed explanation and advice. Fantastic photos too! I love the long petals in combo with the bushy centre part and the interesting combination colors

I'm looking forward to giving it a try. I might also get some pollen from some friends growing brighter colors and bigger flowers.

i did actually Google the marigold question a bunch of different ways before posting but maybe didn't use the right search terms. I'll experiment and see what happens.

Helene

Hi Helene,

" I did actually Google the marigold question a bunch of different ways
before posting but maybe didn't use the right search terms. "

I did a little googling and came up with this link on marigold chromosome numbers.

That would indicate that the Gem marigolds (Tagetes tenuifolia) and the African marigolds (Tagetes erecta) both have chromosome numbers of 2n=24, while the French marigolds (Tagetes patula) are tetraploid, with 2n=48. So if you cross either Gem (Signets) or African with French you will get triploid hybrids. Which could actually be a good thing. But I don't really know anything about marigolds. Except I wish I could cross them with zinnias for their better foliage.

There is the possibility that crossing the Gems or other Signets (24 chromosomes) with Africans (T. erecta--also 24 chromosomes) could yield fertile F1 24-chromosome hybrids. So that would be something you definitely should try. Because fertile F1s could yield an F2 generation, which could be very interesting, with all sorts of new gene recombinations.

" I might also get some pollen from some friends growing brighter colors and bigger flowers. "

Just be aware that zinnia pollen does not "keep" for more than an hour or two. Refrigeration might extend that, but I have never tried that. I just use my zinnia pollen very soon after picking the pollen florets.

Your Zinderellas look great. Just out of curiosity, what are those white flowers in that top photo?

ZM

(PS my zinnias also have 24 chromosomes. But I have tried the zinnia/marigold cross with no success.)

Thanks for all the info and the marigold link!

The signet marigolds I grew last year were already started plants and had no label. They were a mixture of orange, yellow and deep orange-red. Most of the seedlings from the saved seed were dark orange to red (maybe I saved seed off just the darker ones?) I got one light orange and one yellow. Unfortunately I gave away the yellow one before I realized it was yellow (my favorite) or that I would only get one yellow. It would be very cool to get a signet type in a paler yellow or cream. I grew a vanilla marigold this year, even though it is a hybrid (French I think?) I thought it might be worth crossing with a yellow signet to get something creamier or fluffier but still small flowered, beautiful foilage, citrus scented and floriferous. Next year I will probably grow a different "white" marigold variety maybe an open pollinated variety and more yellow signets

Just three of my signet marigolds from last year

Vanilla marigold with one of the signets from this year

The small white flowers in the photos are white wonder feverfew. I will be saving seeds so I can send you some. They, like marigolds have much prettier foilage than zinnias.

The friends I have in mind to get zinnia pollen from are only a few minutes away. One is the owner of my elusive yellow marigold seedling and she grew rows and rows of zinnias I could pick from. I thought I might just pick a few flowers to bring home and use the pollen pretty much immediatly.

Is the only way to tell if seeds are infertile is to try sprouting them? Or do they look different?

Helene

Ps I would have never even thought of growing zinnias but I needed pastel flowers suitable for cutting in late August when a lot of flowers wilt in the heat or are just the wrong color. Now, I might be hooked. Super easy to grow, tons of variety and maybe fun to breed too!

Helene

Helene - (excuse me ZM, while I hijack your thread for a minute) - do any of your signets have the orange citrus scent or are they all lemon citrus scented? I once had some that smelled like oranges, and I'd really like seed for that again. I have piles and piles of things from which I can send you seed.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Here are a few pics of the zinnias in the tulip box - I finally took some photos despite them being too far over my head. I still have the boot on unfortunately, though, as the bone was not healed yet, according to last Thursday's x-ray. :(

I'm sort of partial to the downward-sloping petal ones. I wish I'd been able to do crosses on these, but I can try again next year using old seed and selfs from these. BTW, these are all 5 or more inch blooms - except that first one that hasn't filled out completely yet.

Alex

I smelled the flowers. For the most part, and to my nose at least the citrus scent from most of the signet plants isn't distinctly lemon. I would describe some as a hint of orange though not overwhelmingly orange. I'll check again at another time of day and maybe something will stand out. I have a friend who has been saving signet seed too (hers are yellow and lighter orange) and sniff them too. I will let you know.

I especially like the top two photos of your coral colored zinnias.

Helene

Hi Helene,

" Is the only way to tell if seeds are infertile is to try sprouting them? Or do they look different? "

This has been covered in previous threads in this series, but I don't expect you to spend the countless hours needed to download and read the whole thing. I don't mind repeating, and welcome the opportunity to do so. So, yes, you can tell if zinnia seeds are fertile or infertile without sprouting them.

It is actually better to save seeds in the "green" stage, rather than wait for weeks or months for the seedhead to die and become brown. That reduces the window of danger from seed-eating birds and the danger of an extended rainy period causing pre-germination of the seeds in the seedhead. The "trick" is to determine whether the seed contains a developed embryo, or is "empty" and contains no embryo. It is relatively easy to do that with green seeds.

Helene, I don't know what your growing season is, but here in east central Kansas it is now too late for a full second generation of outdoor zinnias. If I planted zinnia seeds today, they would begin to bloom in about 6 weeks, but they would not have time for a full generation of pollination and multiple flowering and seed development before our killing frost sometime in October.

But if you pick green zinnia seeds in time for a full second generation, and you wish to plant them immediately, you need to breach the green seed coat so that water can get to the embryo in the seed. That is because the green seed coat is "alive" and waterproof. If you just plant the green seed it will take a couple of weeks or so for the green seedcoat to "die" and become water permeable. If you are in a hurry to get your second generation growing, you need to breach the seedcoat in some way so water can get at the embryo inside. There several ways to do that.

If for some reason you are saving seeds from a dead brown seed head, it is not as easy to tell if a brown seed contains an embryo by just looking at it, but you can learn to "pinch" the seed gently between your thumb and forefinger to tell if there is an embryo inside, or if it is just an empty "shell". Some zinnia seeds can "look" very fat, and still prove to be empty to a gentle pinch. The pinch test takes a little practice.

Another way to detect an embryo in a brown or green seed is to gently try to bend it. An empty seed will bend easily, but if there is an embryo inside, it will resist being bent. Be "gentle" doing the bend test -- you can "break" an embryo by bending it too severely. Again, practice makes perfect.

Sorting out good zinnia seeds seems like a tedious activity, but I have learned to enjoy it. And Alex has expressed a similar opinion. Enjoy your zinnia seeds. You could think of that as "Zen".

ZM

Thanks for again so generously sharing your knowledge!

i looked back at bits and pieces of a few of the earlier episodes but it was a bit overwhelming. Maybe a winter reading marathon is in my future. Many of the photos don't work in the older parts also which makes it a a little harder to get through.

The zinnias you are breeding are stunning. Some are so elegant which isn't a word one normally thinks of to describe zinnias. As this summer I am focussed on growing flowers for my daughters wedding the elegant ones really stand out.

I am in zone 6 and have possibly till sometime in October before frost. I probably won't be able to do any cross pollinating till after the wedding (since I will pick everything for that) so, hopefully that leaves just enough time for seeds to develop.

If you would like to add any of the varieties I am growing to your gene pool let me know and I'll do my best to save some seeds for you.

Helene

Hi Alex,

" I'm sort of partial to the downward-sloping petal ones. "

I am too. The down-sloping petals help the bloom to fill up the "sphere". So many zinnias have all of their petals up-sloping, like this one.

Your tulip box must be an excellent place for zinnias to grow, despite its inconvenient location for you. Have they given you any estimate of how much longer you will need to keep that "boot" on? Is the break still painful? Or is the pain now an "only when you laugh" thing? More later.

ZM

The tulip box apparently is a good place for zinnias, but I won't be planting them there next year - sorry, zinnias. I'll put in something that I don't plan to hybridize.

Well, there's good news and bad news. The good news is I am no longer in the boot. The bad news is the break isn't completely filled in yet, so I'm in an ankle brace. Mostly no pain from the break, but the muscles in the ankle and foot are still sore. I've got some weeks to go, I guess.

Here's one of my lemon yellows from a couple days ago:

Alex

Zinnia bed during the eclipse. Unfortunately don't have the proper density filters to risk taking a photo of the eclipse itself over the zinnia bed. Could damage the camera without the right filter. (I did have the special glasses so I could at least look at it, though. We got 80% eclipse here.)

Hi Alex,

I viewed our eclipse through the special glasses and a thin cloud haze. We had nearly 100% but not quite. But the haze dulled the corona detail. It did get pretty dark, and surprisingly (to me) the temperature dropped off noticeably. It got surprisingly cool. I had no idea that our temperature was so quickly responsive to sunlight.

I took several garden pictures before the eclipse, and this is one of them.

Surprise, surprise. We had over 9 inches of rain last night. I slept through it. I shouldn't have to run the lawn sprinkler on my zinnias for several days. More later.

ZM

9 inches? Nine inches??? That's rather a lot of rain over the course of the evening. Surprised you didn't need a boat to get out to the garden.

Actually, this has been a disappointing year for me in the "big zinnia" department. Hopefully next year will be better.

Oh, you probably have been listening to my complaining too much. The size is not that important, after all. That's not to say that I don't intend to try to pass the 6 " mark. :)

I noticed the temperature drop as well during the eclipse - it was sort of spooky.

Alex

Hi Helene,

" i looked back at bits and pieces of a few of the earlier episodes but it
was a bit overwhelming. Maybe a winter reading marathon is in my
future. Many of the photos don't work in the older parts also which
makes it a a little harder to get through. "

Yes, that is unfortunate that Photobucket chose to kidnap those photos. I would have been willing to change my account to the version that supports showing them, but Photobucket now wants $399.99 per year to show them, and that is way too much. My current Photobucket account is the "free" 2.2GB version, of which I am actually using only 17% of that. I considered uploading my originals to GardenWeb (Houz) to replace the Photobucket "Gotcha" screens, but Houzz no longer has those messages editable, so that isn't an option. And it would be quite tedious to determine which of my photos go into which of the GardenWeb spots. I will "throw in" a few of my photos from that era of the startup messages.

ZM

Hi Alex,

" Oh, you probably have been listening to my complaining too much. The
size is not that important, after all. That's not to say that I don't
intend to try to pass the 6 " mark. :) "

When I first decided to breed zinnias years ago, my first intention was simply to select for larger blooms and intercross them and go for the largest blooms possible. When I was a kid, I saw claims for 9-inch zinnias in seed catalogs. I think that was in the ancient Shumways catalogs, which were quaintly illustrated in ink drawings.

I used to see pictures of whole fields of zinnias being grown for commercial seed production and, knowing that zinnias are naturally variable, I could easily imagine that there might be at least a few 9-inch blooms in there somewhere. And I could even justify the 9-inch catalog claims if their seeds came from a field in which at least some 9-inch zinnia blooms occurred.

It may be completely unrealistic, but bloom size is always a criterion for me. In past years I have had a few blooms slightly more than 7 inches in diameter, at least in some orientations of the ruler, like this one. (Its bloom was not perfectly "round".)

This Winter I will be going through my seeds picking out the bigger, longer seeds. Seed catalogs no longer mention a 9-inch size for zinnias (some dahlias exceed that), but I still think 9-inch zinnias are a genetic possibility. In the meantime, back to reality in the Whirligig patch.

ZM

I was given a root of one of those "dinner plate" dahlias - very beautiful...and very heavy head which the stems could hardly hold up. In fact, I lost more than a couple of flowers because of it. Those things definitely need staking all the way up to the bloom. Not sure I want to go to that much trouble, but we'll see next year.

Those are some pretty whirligigs. Didn't get much in the way of very attractive bold bi-colors this year, other than the ones that do the gradually color change. You know what I mean; none of them have the stark bands of color, though there may be more than one color there. My friends that I gave seed to did get a nice one, that I have gathered seed from, so that's something.

Actually, all in all, I'm pretty happy with what I got this year, though most of the good ones weren't from my star lotus of last year. This could have been because most of those plants were at the end of the bed that got devastated by slugs early on and never recovered. I'm still getting a lot of damage, but the good plants have grown tall and out of the slug's reach, I guess, if that makes sense. At least, the slugs don't seem to be climbing up to the top of stems, but are keeping to the lower leaves.

I might have had less problems if I'd been able to keep up the application of diatomaceous earth, but I ran into a major glitch with my gardening in general, as you may recall. Ah, well - next year.

Alex

Hi Alex,

" ...though most of the good ones weren't from my star lotus of last year.
This could have been because most of those plants were at the end of the
bed that got devastated by slugs early on and never recovered. I'm
still getting a lot of damage, but the good plants have grown tall and
out of the slug's reach, I guess, if that makes sense "

It might make sense, although I never thought about that aspect of slug damage. I suppose higher up on a plant would be more difficult for them to reach. I don't remember whether we discussed this before, but you do know about Sluggo slug bait, don't you? I have found it to be effective and safe to use against our slugs and snails.

" I might have had less problems if I'd been able to keep up the
application of diatomaceous earth, but I ran into a major glitch with my
gardening in general, as you may recall. "

I don't use diatomaceous earth, because I doubt its effectiveness, and have seen some information that would indicate diatomaceous earth could be a health hazard and, through a technicality, has avoided being labeled and treated as such. To me, the phrase "food grade diatomaceous earth" is not that different from speaking of "food grade asbestos".

" Those things definitely need staking all the way up to the bloom. "

That's why I don't grow dahlias. It's one thing to have big blooms, but not being able to support them is kind of pathetic.

Here is another plant in my Whirligig patch (my South Garden).

ZM

I bet you're getting some rain now, aren't you, ZM? It's affecting us - or some other system has blown in - because it's drizzly here now. And nighttime temps are cooler; fall is coming.

Yes, I did try Sluggo, though my experience with it was less than happy - in fact it was disaster! Both the ferals and the raccoons - and maybe the possums - were attracted to the stuff and wrecked my garden in all the areas I had sprinkled it. And I know for a fact that it was the Sluggo that attracted them, because I actually saw one of the ferals licking it. I assume it wasn't poisonous, since he's still around today. The raccoons were the worst, however, because they dug holes in all the areas, uprooting plants. And, again, I knew it was raccoons because I saw them. I was forced to replant from seed that year. Fortunately it was early enough that I still got a zinnia crop. Don't think I'd used it anywhere but around the zinnias. Oh, wait - and the squash. Well, the squash was a bust that year too, but more from squash bugs. :(

I'm a seed hoarder, too. I should look back through my files and see if I can find some of the early lotus seeds to add to next year's mix.

Later, Alex

Hi Alex,

" Both the ferals and the raccoons - and maybe the possums - were
attracted to the stuff and wrecked my garden in all the areas I had
sprinkled it. "

I had forgotten about your experience with Sluggo. Well, at least it was non-toxic, and no wildlife was harmed. Maybe even benefited, with a little extra iron in their diet. Well, that limits your options. I guess it's not possible to train your ferals to eat slugs. There may be a spray, but I don't know what it might be. Slugs wont cross sand because it gets stuck to them and I use a sand mulch routinely to prevent damage from earwigs and pillbugs. I literally buy sand by the truckload, for use as a mulch and a soil amendment.

One thing you might experiment with would be copper foil. Slugs won't cross metallic copper because it does some weird electrochemical thing to their wet "foot". For that reason, some gardeners use copper foil tape as a slug repellant.

I guess you might experiment with wrapping a band of copper tape around the main stem of a zinnia plant. I've never used it, because a sand mulch works for me and is simpler to apply and acts as a soil amendment. Copper is a trace element that plants use. Hopefully raccoons don't have a voracious appetite for metallic copper.

This is one of my Whirligigs that I like.

" I bet you're getting some rain now, aren't you, ZM? It's affecting us -
or some other system has blown in - because it's drizzly here now. "

We got only a sprinkle from that weather system. And there is no rain in our 7-day forecast. Fortunately it is still wet from our 9-inch-plus recent downpour. More later.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

I had to go look it up - in my head, I was hearing Painted Admiral, but it's Painted Lady. There is also a Red Admiral, but this one's the Lady.

samhain10 and zen_man thanks for your discussions of dark flowers! i'm obsessed with dark flowers, especially browns, and the elusive blue. don't think zinnias are right for the latter pH-wise (or whatever the factor is) but i might have to try for the former! thinking of crossing my darkest purple with my oranges and reds and see what i get next year c:

oh and the purplish + yellowish combination = black makes sense to me. two different pigments are responsible for those shades, if you combine both the traits they add together to get a darker color i think. it's also a matter of "looking black", something can actually be lighter than a dark purple and still look blackish because of it's hue being less purple or any single bright color... if that makes sense. it's kinda how a cool more grayish brown can look more like black than a darker rich brown does, despite the latter being closer in shade.

--

i havent really bred any zinnias but i've been saving seed from several generations now all planted at my mailbox. what started off as a wide range of colors now is simply the purple - pink shades but i've actually found the branching and fungal resistance better and i have no idea why, maybe plant epigenetics are a thing? i just remember last year they were all dead by this time but theyre still going strong i've seen spots for a few months but they really haven't spread and actually seem to have gotten better somehow.

edit: also hope this isnt off-topic but if anyone knows of any websites or other resources for reading into the basics of plant breeding and genetics i'd be very interested! i like fiddling with native plants and want to make some more compact and different colored varieties.

Thank you everyone for positing pics of your zinnias and marigolds. I planted a bunch of zinnias around our mailbox and planted marigolds at the base. I love the look, but wish that there were more red zinnias in the mix. It's mostly yellow, coral, light/medium pink, a few whites,, orange and a sprinkling of reds. I think the mix was "cut and come again" and "state fair". Here's a few pics:

Anyone have any recommendations for a really "full" and big zinnia? Red, would be preferred, but really all of the colors are beautiful. :-)

Hello Jay/Jax

I posted photos of some of my darker colored zinnias in this thread back on July 15, 2017 at 9:51am. One of my zinnia breeding goals is a "black" zinnia and I have grown some Z. haageana based specimens in an effort to get a really dark purple color. This was one of my indoor-grown "Jazzy" specimens last Winter.

" I'm obsessed with dark flowers, especially browns, and the elusive blue.
don't think zinnias are right for the latter pH-wise (or whatever the
factor is) but i might have to try for the former! thinking of crossing
my darkest purple with my oranges and reds and see what i get next year. "

Blue is highly unlikely and pH is not a color determinant in zinnias. Some of the Z. haageanas show that combining orange or yellow with lavender or purple can produce some brownish combinations. This bloom occurred a few years ago in my Persian Carpet planting.

" ...but if anyone knows of any websites or other resources for reading into
the basics of plant breeding and genetics i'd be very interested! i like
fiddling with native plants and want to make some more compact and
different colored varieties. "

Well, there is this series of message threads on zinnia breeding here, and there are similar message threads on Dave's Garden and the National Garden Association. There are several books on the subjects of plant breeding and genetics, and one is Plant Breeding for the Home Gardener by Joseph Tychonievich. Joseph Tychonievich has participated here in a previous thread of this "it can be fun to breed your own Zinnias" message series.

Amazon offers a lot of books on the subjects of plant breeding and genetics, and many of them have an online "Look Inside" feature that lets you read some pages of the book, which can help you make up your mind on whether you want to buy the book or not.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Jay/Jax - I was reviewing in my head whether any of my zinnias have ever been sort of brown, but I've only been doing this zinnia breeding for 4 years. Don't remember anything but some light beiges, which were really more muddy pinks. And as far as dark colors, the darkest have always been those deep red-purples, but never really very dark. ZM's z. haageana is the darkest I've seen, and I look forward with interest to what comes of his crosses between it and the larger z. hybridas.

On the subject of books, Plant Breeding for the Home Gardener by Joseph Tychonievich that ZM mentioned is an interesting read. Joseph writes well and with enthusiasm about a subject that is obviously dear to his heart. I would say that more important than any detailed specific "how-tos" - though there is some of that - he offered me new insight in how to approach hybridizing. Hard to describe what I mean exactly, but it comes down to - he changed my way of thinking, which is always a valuable occurrence.

Later, Alex

ZM - off subject: where do I look for those probability graphs again? I've got an event coming up end of month or into Oct - would like to study the weather probabilities.

Hi Alex,

Without knowing what specific info you are looking for, this is a link to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Data Tools

You can explore from there. If you can tell me specifically what info you are looking for, I might be able to help.

ZM

Hello bella rosa,

" ...wish that there were more red zinnias in the mix. ...Anyone have any recommendations for a really "full" and big zinnia? Red,
would be preferred, but really all of the colors are beautiful. "

Your top photo looks like a good specimen. Since it doesn't have any pollen, you could put pollen on it from some of your other zinnias to create some hybrid seeds to use next year.

Zinnia Big Red would be one variety to consider. It is an older variety, and probably could be considered an heirloom zinnia.

For "modern" cutflower type big zinnias, Benary's Giant Deep Red would be a good candidate. For an even "deeper" red, Benary's Giant Wine would be worthy of consideration. For a "brighter" red, Benary's Giant Scarlet could fill the bill. If you prefer cactus flowered zinnias (I do), Zinnia Giant Cactus Red would be worth a try.

I like to breed different flower forms of zinnias, including unusual red ones, like this "spider flowered" cactus variant.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM, thank you so much for the great suggestions and advice. I'll have to look into the varieties you mentioned.

Bella rosa - that last thing hZM just said - save the seeds from the specific flowers you like in that mailbox planting now. That top one that ZM pointed out is particularly nice, and could yield you some similar reds next year. I have a cactus-flowered preference myself, but I've found cactus mixed with whirlgig genes can yield some pretty results:

These are all pretty big guys - at least 5". None of them was precisely what I was striving for, but that's part of the fun. You don't know what you're going to get - it's a surprise present opening out there in your garden when you have a new bloom! And you don't necessarily have to do the hybridizing yourself; you can plant things side by side and let the bees do it for you. Though, if you want some specific results, you may have to lend a hand. :)

Save seed from this year's crop just so you know you can do it.

Alex

Alex, those are beautiful zinnias! When is a good time to save the seeds?

If you scroll up to ZM's post from August 12 he describes in great detail all about seed saving for zinnias including timing.

Helene - you took the words right out of my mouth. :) Oh, and thank you kindly, bella rosa, for your compliment on my zinnias!

- Alex

Alex, you are beating me at my own game !!! Those are excellent zinnias, and since the probabilities are that at least some of their seeds will produce even finer zinnias, I have got to up my game a bunch just to stay up with you next year. But, just so you know, I am actually very proud of you. And a little bit awestruck.

ZM

Helene, thank you, I'll have to read the Aug 12th post. I see that growing (and breeding) your own zinnias can become an addiction. :-)

As a few of you have discussed zinnias as a cut flower and potential to be showy and florist material, I thought I might share my perspective.

This summer, I grew a few zinnia varieties specifically to produce blooms to be used as cut flowers for my daughter's wedding. She wanted a pastel color theme of various shades of pink for a late august wedding. Without an established rose garden in place, I looked for alternatives that would create the soft and romantic look she wanted that would be easy to grow, and also stand up to late summer heat. I found a number zinnias that seemed promising as I had read online that zinnias make great cut flowers (Martha Stewart weddings and Floret flowers). After spending the summer with these versatile, varied and beautiful blooms, and practicing arranging them countless times with a variety of other foliage and flowers, I definitely think that zinnias deserve a place in both starring and supporting roles in flower arrangements. Despite a number of the plants I grew not producing flowers true to type (found this thread as I tried to figure out why that might be) I had tons of beautiful Oklahoma and Zinderella zinnia flowers for the bouquets. It turns out that the zinderellas are varied in form and color, and provide particularly lovely material for arrangements. The Oklahoma salmon also seemed to produce two flower types, pale orange with a couple layers of larger petals and a deeper coral color with many many layers of smaller petals, (and one rogue plant with golden yellow flowers.) Beyond that, the Zinnias a number of you are breeding are so gorgeous any florist would be lucky to include them in their designs.

I also grew some large dahlias (around 8") and found the stems quite sturdy and not in need of staking at all, though perhaps that was at least in part due to the particularly good weather this season. Labyrinth and Cafe au Lait were the largest I grew but only one white variety needed staking (not sure type as it was a rescue). Incidentally one of the larger, particularly nice Oklahoma salmon Zinnias was mistaken for a Dahlia.

Labyrinth Dahlia

Cafe Au Lait Dahlia

Helene

Beautiful flowers, Helene! The dahlias are stunning.

Helene - nice! I love the addition of the blackberry foliage. I used to add stuff like that to my arrangements. Wild grasses were a particular favorite addition as we have such a variety here. That's a stunning color in that Cafe Au Lait. Maybe it was just the location and the fact that my dahlia was in a pot instead of the ground that made the heads so weak. I'll hang on to it for another season and try it again - but I'm keeping the stakes ready. :)Alex

ZM -

Without knowing what specific info you are looking for, this is a link to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Data Tools

You can explore from there. If you can tell me specifically what info you are looking for, I might be able to help.What?
You can't read my mind yet? :) Sorry about that. When I switched to the
new PC, I lost some of my bookmarks. The graph I'm referring to was
something you linked me to over a year ago which had probability
percentages of frost dates in whatever area is closest to you.
Serendipitously, after your reply I went to check the weather at my
weather underground site (www.wunderground.com) and saw they'd changed
their format. My beloved graph was gone! I loved that thing with all the
little different colored wavy lines and the tiny arrows showing wind
direction, and the blue or purple blocky spikes - color depending on
whether rain or snow. Fortunately, it wasn't really gone, though they
did change their format. And in looking for it, I found a calendar I'd
forgotten about that gives - record and average - highs and lows for the
rest of the month past the usual 10 days of predictions. It's all a crapshoot anyway, considering how variable the weather has been, but this is something to go on.

just so you know, I am actually very proud of you. And a little bit awestruck.
Aw gee, now you're making me blush. Thank you, zensama.

Namaste,

Alex

Alex,

Here is a photo of a few of my dahlias. I grew a few in the garden too but mostly in pots.

Thanks for the compliments!

Helene

Hi Helene,

You were lucky your Zinderellas turned out OK. Other people have not been so lucky with them. I plan to grow a whole bed of them next year, with the expectancy of very heavy culling. The good ones are quite good, and quite worthy of crossing with other zinnias.

Your closeup of the Labyrinth Dahlia is inspiring. I totally like that flowerform, and would be very pleased to breed a zinnia that looked like that. I have had dahlia flowered zinnias in the past that had slight hints of petals like that. (You probably already know that the photos here can be seen better by clicking on them and then hitting your F11 key to hide your browser's headings. Hit F11 again to get your headings back. I sometimes forget to do that.)

I can't help but think that your dahlias would do better in bigger pots. Much bigger pots. But I am no one to talk. Some of my indoor zinnias have been subjected to ridiculously small pots.

Your dahlias have provided me with goals for new zinnias. I do think your dahlias deserve larger pots or containers. But you have done remarkably well with the pots that you have.

ZM

My seed source for the zinderellas was Swallowtail seeds. Many of the first blooms were singles and initially I thought it might be a problem with the seed source. However I doubt that is the case now with what I have read online. I planted a whole bunch more July 7 when I thought I wouldn't have enough good ones but those are just starting to bloom now. I have found many misshapen flowers, often on the same plant as perfect blossoms, any reason why that might be?

Your scabiosa zinnias are stunning but since I can't grow those I will try more zinderellas next year as well as another type or two of scabiosa zinnias, maybe a mix. Plus, I will likely some of the seeds I save.

The camera does not do the labyrinth dahlia justice. Some flowers have more yellow.

I suggest for true inspiration you grow one. The color just about glows and is truly luscious. I wouldn't have grown it except my husband brought it home one day because the photo on the package looked "pink." If you get anywhere remotely close to it with a zinnia you will have a winner for sure. Of course you have many winners already and I, along with many others I'm sure, look forward to seeing the results of your new goals.

I agree with you on the skimpy pots. My wedding flower project got a bit out of hand in regards to scale. Without enough ground prepared and concerns about protection from deer and bad weather I planted a lot in pots. After running out of my second huge batch of soil mix, not all plants got equal opportunity as far as pot size. I hadn't grown many dahlias before and many of the tubers were very very small so I made do and hoped something would turn out. Everything seemed to do ok even though they might have done even better in bigger pots. Next year the dahlias will get bigger pots and more garden space maybe too.

Here is a pretty weird OK salmon. It basically grew a second flower out the top of the center of the first flower.

Helene

Zen Man
Are You Going To Start Your Inside Growing Soon?

The Tubey's and The Spider Forms Are The Ones I'm Keeping My Eye On As They Fascinate Me
Thanks

Hey, ninecrow - how's it going?

ZM - I do think your dahlias deserve larger pots or containers. Well of course they do, silly, but also of course she already used all the bigger pots, and the soil to put in them. Hello-o-o - there was a wedding, remember? Stretched to the max, she was, I reckon.
BTW - How did the wedding go, Helene? Hope all went according to plan - or, at least (since I personally haven't had anything go according to plan in, like, FOREVER), as well as could be hoped. And, also BTW, you have sold me on the Georgia Peach dahlia! Love that dark foliage; it would be great on the patio as an accent, and the flowers are small, so no staking.
Well, it's getting to be fall here apparently. Sigh. Why do I feel like I missed the entire summer?

Alex, the Forlorn

Alex, the Forlorn

Namaste to you, too.

What a nice thing to say.

It is a kind of forlorn time of year. My zinnias are looking a bit forlorn, what with all this cool weather, and downright cold near-record nights we have been having. We are definitely in the endgame zinnia-wise here in east-central Kansas. I have gathered a few seeds, and am preparing to spray some of my breeders with systemic fungicide. It is meteorological Fall, and it feels like it. Apparently the birds feel it, too. The majority of our hummingbirds have recently migrated south, although both feeders are still relatively busy. I haven't seen a Monarch in days, but other butterflies are still numerous.

My Fall cleanup is in progress, and I am doing a few pre-Spring preparations in some of the outdoors beds. I hope to get off to a stronger early start next Spring than I did this year. Busy, busy. More later.

Namaste,

ZM

Hello Ninecrow,

" Are You Going To Start Your Inside Growing Soon? "

No, that won't be until late October or early November. I have two fairly large (for me) outdoors gardens that require a lot of work all the time, and especially in the Fall. I don't want any diseases or pests to Winter over in dead zinnias, so I am currently busy sacking up zinnia culls in trash bags for a trip to the landfill.

" The Tubey's and The Spider Forms Are The Ones I'm Keeping My Eye On As They Fascinate Me "

They fascinate me, too. I hope to make some more progress in that area in my indoor gardening phase this Winter.

ZM

Alex, As it would be easy for me to go on and on about the wedding, I will try and be brief.

The wedding was an amazing and magical day. Rustic historic hall and beach- perfect setting; Food- beautiful, delicious and plentiful; Music- wonderful band; Weather- sunny and warm, most of the smoke from the wildfires lifted that day! Flowers- gorgeous and abundant- Zinnias, Dahlias, Bachelor buttons, feverfew, snapdragons, cosmos, blushing Susie vine, sunflowers and tons more; Bridesmaid's dresses (handmade by me)- lovely and simple that they can wear again, Helpers- my mom, bridesmaids and many others helped it all come together; Wedding dress (handmade by me)- finished in time and stunning with an incredible flow for walking down the aisle and dancing; guests- loving people from near and far; Bride and groom- happy and surrounded by family and friends.

Bridesmaids flowers were a mixture white flowers, dusty miller and a few of the palest Zinderella zinnias in each bouquet. Brides bouquet was larger and colorful with dalmatian peach foxglove, cherry caramel phlox, Chantilly snaps, the best Zinnias and Dahlias, and more.

We decorated beach area with potted plants- sunflower, Labyrinth dahlia, Collarette cosmos, blushing Susie vines and mixed containers.

Inside we used cut flowers reminiscent of a cottage flower garden, again mostly in pinks and peaches but with a sprinkling of other colors, in mixed glass vases and jars in tables and big steel buckets on stage. The cake was also decorated with edible flowers and herbs; pinks, calendula, pansies and lavender. I don't have the best picture of the whole room though it turned out very pretty. I think the photographer got some better pictures but I haven't seen those yet.

Helene

Helene - absolutely LOVE it!!! What a setting, and the cottage flower garden theme is perfect for it. Apparently the gods smiled upon it as well, judging by the beautiful sunshine. Congratulations to the newly wedded couple - and to you, for all your hard work - well done! If you post an Ideabook here at Houzz, including some closeups, I'd like to see them. You didn't include closeups of the dresses, which I'd want to see.

Alex

ZM - once again I'll try to post a video. It's of the Patio Garden this year and the hoards of monarchs that came to visit the liatris ligulistylis. I didn't realize the liatris would grow that tall. I'll move them to the back of the borders in the spring.

The season is winding down now. We have some days of sun following our 3 days of on/off rain, so I'll go out and finish gathering what seed I intend to pick.

Alex

Wow, Alex,

You are full of surprises. Great video of butterflies (those do look like Monarchs) and I was amused by the audio about the feral cats being in the way. I intend to learn about video myself.

ZM

Hello everyone,

We are beyond the 100-message count here, so I am continuing this message thread over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 44

I hope to see you all over there.

ZM