I don't have CdM (yet) but have given some thought what to do with it if/when I got it. I figured I'd treat it as a patch/area sort of plant rather than a specimen plant. To contain it, I thought I'd treat it like bamboo and use extra-deep edging. Fwiw, the research I'd done on the fragrance put the strength at moderately strong but as you noted, some discrepancy regarding that - whether due to soil/climate affecting fragrance or differences in the noses sniffing it I couldn't say.

If you haven't seen it yet, here's Paul Barden's write-up of it.

-Don

Why has Hippolyte, or any of the other dark red gallicas, fallen so far off the radar? Every one of them I've seen has been a more interesting flower and better plant than Charles de Mills.

Most of the gallicas sucker, and many of the damasks and albas do as well, though perhaps not quite as severely. All of these roses will behave better when grafted. That is how you should try to get them if you want a formal garden. Own root is fine for a semi-wild area, but they won't look great in a formal garden such as you describe.

We used to be able to get them from Pickering. I wonder if Burlington might be able to custom graft one or more of the gallicas for you? Her website is at http://burlingtonroses.com/id4.html. Hortico sells a lot of grafted roses, too.

Rosefolly

Just as a heads up about having Burlington custom graft for you; I asked her about 4 weeks ago if she could graft an Annie Laurie McDowell for me. I told her I was in no hurry, and was willing to prepay. She apologized and said she was so swamped with grafting projects, that she wouldn't even put my name on a list. Maybe when she gets caught up she will start taking new grafting orders. But you could still ask:) Lisa

Do not grow CdM in a formal garden unless you can find it budded. Even then I would regularly threaten him with a shovel.

Yes, Charlie is a beauty. But he's a conniving con artist, lol. You *will* regret letting the monster loose if you plant it on its own roots. I have the 20' diameter (yes, 20' ACROSS) thicket to prove it. Fortunately I knew of CdM's proclivity for romping when I sited it; unfortunately, I *still* planted it too close to my perennial beds. I must admit it's the most glorious thing in my Spring garden, but it's a worrisome beauty. I now just mow around him, and mow a slightly smaller perimeter every time. And I still have to watch for suckers up to 6 feet away from the "clump". If I don't take him back a little each time I mow, by the end of the summer he has crept another few feet closer to my flower beds.

CdM's photo is in the dictionary under "thug".

John

I have "one" specimen of 'Charles de Mills' that has been left to its own devices for 18 years and is now a 20 X 20 foot patch. This variety is certainly one of the most aggressive suckerers of the clan, but almost every Gallica (that does not have China genes) will sucker like this given enough time.

If you must limit its span in your garden, treat it like Bamboo; plant it with a 2 foot deep root barrier. Or buy a budded plant, if you can find someone producing it in that form factor.

Its an exquisite rose and no other deep crimson Gallica produces such refined blooms as 'Charles de Mills'. It has a fragrance, but it is of the "herbal" style with none of the Damask sweetness characteristics. I like its fragrance, but its not the scent you seek out if you want a jaw-dropping swoon scent.

CdM will take over, and that's not what you want in a formal garden. He is worth having, but he needs to be where he can do his thing unrestrained. I have been trying to take one out for a year. He had a lot of room of his own, but he kept popping up under my other roses and had produced hundreds of little Charles. I've kept one of the large suckers to replant w-a-y outside of my gardens. His bloom period wasn't as long as my other once bloomers, and the fragrance was nice, but weak. He had a proclivity to powdery mildew. I can plant 4 roses in the place he leaves. That is, if he leaves. I've been told I will never truly be free if him. I'll probably still be digging him up when they carry me off to the home. To me, the blooms are similar to Erinnerung an Brod, a well behaved climber that I grow as a shrub.

Belle de Crecy is another gallica know for suckering. It was one of the first roses I planted, before I knew how hard it would be to control it. This picture shows how large it's gotten, and this is after I removed all unwanted suckers last summer, getting it back to about 3x3 It's bigger than ever now, probably approaching 6x6. Keeping it in control would require constant maintenance, and removing the roots results in disrupting nearby plants that it tangles with. Once it finishes blooming it will all have to be removed and I'll plant a portion within a root barrier. It's gonna be a big job...

-Chris

I think it looks great Chris.

Boy am I glad I asked! 20 x 20? I had no idea it could get that big!

I would love to have it budded, but I wouldn't pursue that line unless I had fallen in love with it. I've never actually seen CdM in person. I think I will grow it in a pot for a while so I can experience the blooms in person and proceed from there according to how much it makes me swoon...

laiquatan: I look forward to seeing your pictures! Paul Barden's write up is one of the reasons I bought CdM...I got swept up in the glowing description :)

mad_gallica: I would love to try Hippolyte, but I can never find it in stock anywhere! CdM seems to always be in stock, and this post seems to illustrate why.

Chris: your belle de crecy is a beautiful mound, especially juxtaposed against the pretty spiky iris. From your pic one would never know it had been romping away in your garden.

My rose garden is a formal design in an informal setting (set in a clearing between large Douglas Firs and Cedars). The lines are formal, but I want the plantings to be lush and somewhat wild.....but not large-thicket-wild :)

How long does suckering take place ? And is rose suckering worst than bamboo shoots spreading everywhere? Because I'm tempted to grow Charles de Mills but if suckering is worst than bamboo I might reconsider.

My Charles de Mills was budded but soon went ownroot and went far, very far. So I removed it (or rather, all of them) from the bed as best I could with great trouble but it still pops up in and outside the bed after three years. It takes constant vigilance! Belle de Crécy is bad but Chuck is much worse.