IMO using that terminology is an over-simplified and uninformative description of the issue. We don't prune just cuz. We prune to train. Pruning generates growth. Timing growth is everything with once bloomers. Blooming on old wood means that the basal and lateral canes produced last year (or earlier) have the capacity to generate bloom - -from all laterals they produce-- and that neither basals nor laterals produced after the flush will not flower because the plant already bloomed for the year. New laterals from old basals will bloom if they grow in time for the annual flush. But if the plant blooms before it produces laterals, then it only blooms on last year's "wood". Furthermore, this year's basals, produced before this year's flush, are inconsistent in bloom the same year. Some will, but most will not. In my limited experience (only a few in my garden), Old Europeans are in the "will not" group. Too much pruning in the spring sometimes generates a bunch of new basal growth before the spring flush, and that growth won't be mature enough to bloom this year. The lush new growth swamps the older, flowering wood. So that's another factor to consider in pruning in the spring. Those of us who live in hot climates need to juggle factors like the heat and drought stress our plants will be under if we prune after the flush. It just feels wrong to prune a plant in 100 degree temperatures. This is the knowledge you need to apply to your pruning. Several classes of roses are implicated, and they don't all grow alike everywhere. Old Europeans don't grow exactly like once blooming climbers. I have a cold, dry spring, so my Old European roses bloom on laterals before they put on substantial new basal growth. With ramblers, there have been exceptional years, where if I pruned too hard in the winter and if the spring was wet and mild, I promoted a lot of lush green growth before the flush, obscuring the bloom. As for summer pruning, I don't do much. But if the weather accommodates and if I notice older unproductive wood that I missed pruning out, I will definitely remove it to channel the plant's growth into productive new canes. I training roses year round in moderation.

I'm going to give him a try. I have pink-shade lilies in that same bed, and plan on putting kiss-me-over-the-garden-gate there too, so I think with Thomas and some wine-colored coleus, it'll be a really dramatic wine and pink late-summer bed. It's a funny thing, when I Googled it, so many of the commercial pics of Thomas Edison were obviously photoshopped to be more purple/blue toned. But the amateur photos uniformly showed more of a magenta shade, so I figure I'm good. Kristin

Boy am I glad I asked! 20 x 20? I had no idea it could get that big! I would love to have it budded, but I wouldn't pursue that line unless I had fallen in love with it. I've never actually seen CdM in person. I think I will grow it in a pot for a while so I can experience the blooms in person and proceed from there according to how much it makes me swoon... laiquatan: I look forward to seeing your pictures! Paul Barden's write up is one of the reasons I bought CdM...I got swept up in the glowing description :) mad_gallica: I would love to try Hippolyte, but I can never find it in stock anywhere! CdM seems to always be in stock, and this post seems to illustrate why. Chris: your belle de crecy is a beautiful mound, especially juxtaposed against the pretty spiky iris. From your pic one would never know it had been romping away in your garden. My rose garden is a formal design in an informal setting (set in a clearing between large Douglas Firs and Cedars). The lines are formal, but I want the plantings to be lush and somewhat wild.....but not large-thicket-wild :)

You have a great collection of Paul Barden roses, Sheila. Dianella, I think TS is more fragrant than Charles de Mills but ChdM has a nice fragrance. Both sucker here though ChdM is not as bad here as some places. ChdM has bigger blooms. TS is a deeper color. A long time ago a lady in TX used to post about her Gallicas ...it was interesting to see they did well in a hot climate. Her name is Melba. In my zone 7a NC climate most Gallicas do well and bloom well but I have one, Duchesse de Buccleugh, that will not bloom if the winter is mild. Charles de Mills Tuscany Superb Neither one is bs free here but not bad. My tallest Gallica is The Shell Rose. It's 5' or 6' tall, arching. Has narrow canes and little pompon blooms. I planted a second ChdM plant in a very tough location in a very gravelly spot that's hot and dry and it is doing pretty well. Gets morning sun and the leaves stay healthier on that one than my plant in more shade. I think a number of once bloomers are pretty tough.