That doesn't look like any of the OGRs in their current inventory. It looks (to me) like some kind of Hybrid China, but I don't know which of those they once carried, or where to start looking. I was thinking as I read the title that perhaps the rose made some solid blooms, which my 'Tricolore de Flandre' did once in a while, but your plant is also short on petals to be that rose. Hmmmm.......did you email Heirloom?

:-/

~Christopher

My wild guess is 'Apothecary's Rose'.

My 'Apothecary's Rose' has fewer and larger petals. And that white stripe down the center of a petal is a sign of China ancestry.

:-)

~Christopher

So are you saying that the white stripe in the photo I linked to means that the rose pictured is not 'Apothecary's Rose'?

Can't tell you what it is but I agree Christopher, doesn't look like the Apoth. Rose. Additionally the purplish/magenta tones in your pics just don't show up in the Apoth. Rose if your pic is a reasonably accurate color of the bloom.

Thank you all so much for your input! Christopher, I am leaning toward hybrid China-Gallica, too. Virginia, although it is similar to the Apothecary's Rose, I grow that one and the mystery doesn't quite match. It looks a lot like a double or semi double La Belle Sultane (late 1700s) with slender, lighter colored, somewhat smoother leaves....with a dash of Cardinal de Richelieu's color thrown into the aging petals. I will contact Heirloom, but I'm not going to sit on the edge of my seat awaiting an accurate response. I'm guessing that current staff (1) is super busy and (2) will be equally puzzled. I dug up some old Heirloom catalogs from back in the day. I'll do a little research today.

Please continue to add to this thread with more suggestions and guesses. The rose is a pretty, purple Gallica-like thing, so of course I plan to keep it! :-)

Cardinal de Richelieu bloom next to aging mystery bloom for comparison.

Carol

Update: I found a 1998 Heirloom OLD Garden Roses catalog. The closest ID in that one is La Belle Sultane. The out of focus foliage in the photo (p. 96) does look to be slender and lighter colored like that of my mystery rose. I've grown La Belle in the past, but my version had darker, broader foliage. It may have come from Vintage? Does anyone else out there grow LBS? Is yours a match for my mystery? I'm going to check Paul Barden's website and S Verrier's book on Gallicas. I think both of those contain beautiful photos and descriptions of LBS. Carol

I don't think it's La Belle Sultane. Like Christopher, I suspect China-Gallica hybrid. Also, my purple mystery rose's foliage looks wrong, and the buds don't match my former LBS. LBS's buds on HMF more closely resemble Gallica buds, like my last LBS's buds did. This rose's buds resemble Cardinal de Richelieu. Sort of smooth (no ruffled sepal action) and more contemporary.

I couldn't glean much from old Heirloom catalogs or my old Vintage catalog. Awaiting a reply from Heirloom. If the mystery is solved or the rose reblooms, I'll update everyone. In the meantime, if anyone experiences a lightbulb, I'd be so grateful for hints, clues and possible IDs. Thank you so much! Carol

I know zilch about these exotic beauties but my first thought was Tuscany Superb. Am I certifiably crazy? (perhaps better not to comment on that)

Here are two shots of La Belle Sultane from the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, where they have multiple specimens of this very beautiful (running) and very distinctive rose:

Here's a pic from Helpmefind of a reverse sport: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.283944

Ingrid, not crazy at all. I appreciate your input! My mystery rose really does look like some kind of double purplish Gallica variety. Your suggestion, like Virginia's of Apothcary, makes sense, but side by side comparisons with plants in my garden emphasize the differences. I'm just happy the ID doesn't require distinguishing between red Chinas! That I could never do.

Monarda, thank you so much for your photo of LBS, your comments and the link to the TdF reversion! My rose truly might be a TdF reversion, although the petal count on my rose is noticeably lower than TdF, and that makes me wonder. It is true that my rose is young, and petal counts can increase with age, but....

I, too, would like to see the famously beautiful, striped TdF growing in my garden. It is one of my Gallica obsessions. I decided to select 3 striped cultivars: Rosa Mundi, Camaieaux and TdF. Hopefully Heirloom has a replacement in stock and in bloom! 4 years has been a long stretch (2 years of waitlist and 2 years to bloom.)

At one time, I had bookmarked an old list of all Heirloom's roses. Somehow, I tripped upon a back door in their website. Whether I can still access the list is questionable since the website has been rebuilt a couple of times since. I filed a printout of the list somewhere in my past life, but I wouldn't bet anything valuable that I can lay my hands on it now.

Monarda and Ingrid, thank you both for hearing my pleas for assistance! What would I do without this forum? If anyone else has long or short shots or even rambling speculations, I'd love to hear! Carol

Ingrid, I think my mystery Gallica is communicating telepathically with you. I checked on it today, and lo and behold it suddenly revealed a tendency to go all wine colored and velvety!

Photos: mystery bloom above and the bloom of a youngish Tuscany Suberb below for comparison. The mystery rose still shows a lower petal count, but who knows what the future holds? Or maybe my plant will transform itself into Tuscany (which does have a lower petal count than TS)? Maybe I'll begin to see some ruffled sepals, too. I'll bet next spring will be a telling time.

In the meantime, if any more brilliantly perceptive California rosarians care to share your impressions, please do! :-) Carol

Mystery rose

Tuscany Superb

I have received the same rose from Heirloom. It does not seem to be Tricolore de Flandres either. Upon contacting Heirloom Roses, and sending them a photo, this was their response.

"As this plant matures, the white stripes will enhance and become more visible. If you look at your bloom very closely you can see the mottled white stripes that will eventually become brighter as years pass. With these once blooming roses, we must have a little bit of patience. :)"

Heirloom Roses seem to be reluctant to admit this might not be the correct rose.

For what it's worth, I think my 'Tricolore de Flandre' has completely reverted to a medium mauve pink. Last year was the first year I noticed it didn't have any stripes, and it was the same this year. My plant came from Vintage Gardens, however, and it was striped from when it arrived in 2013 through 2015. But it has never been as dark as yours, Carol. AND it has more petals. So it's not the same rose.

:-)

~Christopher

Well, I don't know if this adds much to this interesting discussion, but I also had first bloom this year from a hoped-for 'Tricolore de Flandre' that looked like this (inside, incandescent light):

Outside light:

Now, different source (same state) and I haven't tried to sort it out yet, but isn't it funny? I guess it would be a good thing for nurseries to make a practice of listing their sources, too.

Christopher, would you say your reversion looked at all like this?

Linda

P.S. I think I'm voting for one of the Tuscanies, Carol and Joan!

That's about the color mine looked, but I can't say for sure if it's an exact match. I didn't take any pictures, but I feel as if mine had a bit fewer petals. I couldn't see stamens, but your bloom looks a touch fuller.

The pic linked below is more like I remember mine -- except mine no longer has white markings. Imagine the darker stripes taking over, and that's how mine looked this year and last.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.269072

:-)

~Christopher

Thank you all for your continued input! Joan, it looks like we have both received the same imposter. I have yet to receive a reply to my Heirloom email and haven't had a moment to call. I will do soon as I can after the 4th. I'll be curious to hear their response. I find it odd that Heirloom cannot see that the imposter is clearly not TdF.

Linda and Christopher, thank you for sharing your experiences with reversion! And Linda, thank you for sharing your telling images. May I use your reversion photo in a second Heirloom email? It so clearly illustrates the difference in bloom/petal count.

I also believe a Tuscany variety is a likely ID for this imposter. It's been quite a spring for mislabeled roses! I ordered a grafted Rosa Mundi from DA for a friend/client. It's the Apothecary, of course.

Carol

Thank you, everyone. It seems like the rose in question is either a Tuscany or Tuscany Superb. Does anyone who has grown the actual Tricolor de Flandres rose know if it usually has a green button eye? I sent an email to Heirloom in which I mentioned that Tricolore is usually described as having a button eye, but have yet to receive a response.

Carol, does your rose also have a lot of fine red-tinged prickles on the stems like this?

Joan

Carol, you're most welcome to those photos, of course, but the thing is I'm not really sure what that rose is yet. (It's not from Heirloom.) And Christopher's link (thank you!) sent me off to search the HMF images and I'm still exploring the References there. So interesting.

Sorry to hear about Rosa Mundi/Apothecary!

Linda

Joan, I'll check the prickles on my mystery rose. I can also check TS's. I don't grow Tuscany unless our mystery is Tuscany. :-)

Linda, thank you! Your reversion looks so similar in form to Tricolore de Flandre, but since it may not be a TdF/TdF reversion, what I'd like to do is send a photo to Heirloom along with another note that says "Tricolore's form looks something like this, even as a young plant" and "the reversion would look a lot like this. My plant is probably something along the lines of Tuscany or possibly a China-Gallica hybrid." I'm thinking that if Heirloom told Joan that her rose is TdF, the staff may be unfamiliar with TdF's look, even as a young rose. Carol

Yep, that's how mine looked -- in 2013, 2014, and 2015. In 2016 it lost its white. Neither of its neighbors look like it, so I guess mine reverted. But its petal count and form matches Paul's pic, and doesn't match either Carol's or Linda's.

:-)

~ Christopher

Thanks again, everyone, for all your great information.

After numerous emails back and forth with Heirloom, I called and asked to speak with a customer service supervisor. She looked at the photos that I had sent of the rose I received, and agreed that the rose was not Tricolore de Flandres. She thought that it was, perhaps, Apothecary's Rose.

Has anyone grown the Tricolore de Flandres from Rogue Valley Roses?

I finally found a photo with a similar-looking arrangement of pistil and stamens:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.134207

Virginia

I'm popping this thread back to the top because it occurred to me that perhaps instead of receiving Tricolore de Flandre, Carol received Tricolore.

I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but I've recently been going through lists of old roses for some other project. When I saw this pic, my mind was transported back to this thread.

:-)

~Christopher

That is spot on. Good call. This mistakes make me reluctant to order some of these and spend all the time growing them only to have the wrong one.

Christopher,

Thank you so much for keeping my mystery rose in mind! Your replies are speedier than Heirloom's. (No, Heirloom did not respond to my emails, so I'll take another running leap at communication when things slow down a bit this winter.) I really wish you'd relocate to Oregon and hook up with an OGR nursery! My crystal ball is having visions of a new Vintage Gardens arising....

I think you could be right about Tricolore vs Tricolore de Flandre! My rose looks a lot like a baby version of the Tricolore photos on HMF. I had never heard of this Gallica but am now on a researching mission. Perfect fodder for an off season project as my garden moves into hibernation.

I see only one (European) source for this rose on HMF, but who knows what stock is left in the Heirloom OLD Garden Roses archives? Back in the day, H OLD G R, seemed to offer classes and cultivars that were collected and propagated by various nurseries around Europe. If I had wandered through Heirloom's fields and spotted a torn Gallica label with the word "Tricolor" printed on the remains, I might have assumed the likely striped candidate as an ID, especially if TdF is on the current stock list.

If you happen to stumble across more info about Tricolor, please don't hesitate to pass it along. My curiosity is ignited. And thank you again!

Carol

Vaporvac, if it helps to know this, 90 % or more of my Heirloom orders are correct. There was a little scheboozle with the Austins that were being discontinued, and My Tricolore de Flandre obviously isn't TdF, but I've ordered a pile of roses for myself, friends and clients, and most arrivals have been healthy, well-packed and accurately labeled. The new owners have raised prices (not cheap), but the plants are larger and my recent orders have boasted a higher rate of accuracy.

However, it's the lu-lus that always make forum discussions, right? A bright orange, well-armed, modern octopus which deceptively sports the label of a delicate, lightly prickled, silver-pink OGR. At least my Gallica error is purple. I adore purple Gallicas!

One incorrectly labeled plant that Heirloom (or to quote Paul Barden, Errloom) has grown for decades is La Ville de Bruxelles. I think the plant might be, in reality, Comte de Chambord. Plus it looks like Heirloom shared its stock and its error with High Country. HC's website photo images are a match. Carol

Christopher, I found a link to a photo of Tricolore at Sangerhausen. This really could be a match! http://www.rosegathering.com/tricolore.html

Joan, do you think we have Tricolore? Maybe time will tell? If so, we're probably growing a somewhat rare Gallica cultivar, at least in the US.

Carol

The brilliant autumn foliage and stipules of my Heirloom Roses Not Tricolore de Flandre (possibly Tricolore). Is the slender part between the leaves and the stipule called the rachis? I had to look that one up. Leaves of gold/fuchsia and fuchsia stipule and rachis(?). Carol

I'e ordered dozens of roses from Heirloom in times past, and to the best of my knowledge, only two were wrong. One was Not-La Ville de Bruxelles, and the other was simply a mislabeled rose. I no longer grow it and am sorry to say I forget what it was. I don't think it's the fact that they make mistakes which annoys me, as all nurseries make mistakes from time to time. It's the fact that they refuse to admit it when they do.

On the other hand, they used to carry a huge inventory of old roses, and I am very grateful to them for giving me my reboot into growing old garden roses, The original impetus came in my late teens with Roses of Yesterday and Today back at my parents' home.

And I agree, your rose is not 'La Belle Sultane', which happens to be one of my favorite gallicas. I also agree that it looks rather like 'Tuscany Superb', Tom's favorite gallica.

See if you can track down a copy of Suzy Verrier's book Rosa Gallica and look at the picture of 'Tricolore de Flandres'. That will settle for once and for all that your rose cannot be TdF. Her photo looks very much like the one I once grew, which did not survive here, I am sorry to say. Gallicas have a tough time here. Paul Barden thinks it is due to the lack of winter chill in the warmer parts of the SF Bay Area.

Rosefolly

Rosefolly, I absolutely agree about the LVdB error. We all make mistakes, but refusing to admit error when it has (repeatedly and conspicuously) confronted us is unprofessional. I am also worried that the past Heirloom owners sent stock to High Country and reproduced the error. I may try contacting the new owners to see if I can get their attention. Heirloom was also one of my first introductions to old roses, and I am eternally grateful!

I am glad to receive another confirmation that my purple mystery is not La Belle Sultane. Tuscany and Tuscany Superb are still on my possibilities list. I have S Verrier's book and absolutely love it...and I agree 100% that my rose is not Tricolore de Flandre. It might be Tricolore, as Christopher suggested. I've added that designation to my possibilities list. When I get a skinny minute, I'm going to sift through my old Heirloom catalogs to see if it's listed. If not, I plan to email Heirloom and hope for a reply.

I'm so sorry you can't grow Gallicas well in your climate! I feel the same longing for Marechal Niel. If I lived in a climate without good winter chill, I'd probably try Cardinal de Richelieu. I've seen that one growing in warm zones in TX. The China genes must add just enough tolerance. "Canary Island Rose" is another warm zone TX Gallica I'd try if I could get my hands on a start.

Please keep us updated on your oak disease. I'm sending all the good thoughts I have for containment! I'm glad you are finding joy in many kinds of plants outside the rose sphere. Truthfully, I prefer mixed beds and a diverse garden.

Carol

I'm very glad to have found this page a few years later because I ordered and received a TdF from Heirloom earlier this year and it is definitely not that and seems to be the same mystery rose. Very fragrant but not the rose I wanted for that spot which is irritating having planted and cared for it.

Well, I know that this is small consolation, but it's a very beautiful rose, nonetheless.

Hi, Jaya. Yes, it looks like you, too, received "Not TdF." Welcome to the Gallica Mystery Club! Mine is starting to resemble Tuscany or Tuscany Superb, but I'm not 100% sure of ID yet. Tuscany Superb is my absolute favorite rose of all time, so at least I received a rose that resembles one that I adore, but I already have a small hedge of TS. So.... And like you, I really wanted TdF, darn it! After my "Not TdF" bloomed, I contacted Heirloom via email (twice) but never received a reply. If you decide to contact Heirloom's customer service, feel free to mention that I also received a "Not TdF" so the company has obviously been selling an incorrectly labeled rose for at least 2 years. Carol

Coming late to the party, but I grow La Belle Sultane, and I agree that your rose is not it. LBS has deep, dramatic, vivid coloring. The Brooklyn Botanic Garden pictures are accurate. It is my favorite gallica.

I also grow Tuscany Superb. It is also deeper in color than yours, though I suppose weather could make a difference. Tuscany Superb is my husband's favorite gallica.

Thank you for your input, Rosefolly! I may decide to grow my mislabeled rose to maturity. It is a lovely, mauve-purple thing, and now I'm curious to see if I can determine exactly what Heirloom is propagating and selling. I could never accurately ID Heirloom's "Not La Ville de Bruxelles," but a couple of forum members suggested it might be an HP that was part of Clement's breeding program. I eventually passed it along since my garden is packed and already contains a number of frothy mid pinks. Please tell your husband he has great taste! Carol

What a shame Tricolore de Flandres no longer seems to be in commerce. It used to be a stalwart of old rose catalogs. The one is Paul's picture is spectacular.

Rogue valley roses has Tricolore de Flanders in stock. I have ordered the rose, and hope to this time get the real thing.

The rose in Jaya's posting/photo is absolutely not 'Tuscany Superb'. The flowers of 'Tuscany Superb' do not reflex in the way the blooms of the "not TdF" appear to in the photo. The color of 'Tuscany Superb' is also much, much darker.

I'm not sure about the foliage, but Jaya's fading bloom, complete with raindrops, reminds me of 'Conditorum'... but I don't know if you would have that over there..

How funny you should say that, Marlorena. I was just wondering about the same possibility while I was over on the Rosa Mundi/Conditorum thread. I asked Belmont8 to pop over here and check out the Not TdF photos. But do you see what might be a little of that hybrid China-Gallica look in Not TDF? I keep seeing a little China in there.... Carol