It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 42
Hello everyone,
Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 41, has exceeded 100 messages, with a lot of picture content, as well as
text content, and that could make the thread slow to load for some users,
so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.
The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias
is fine. (Or plant breeding in general, or feral cats or precocious cats or locusts or chupacabras or whatever.)
My indoor zinnia project is winding down, but I still have some indoor zinnias, like this one.
ZM
Comments (106)
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
zen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoRelated Discussions
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 3
Comments (40)Pls8xx, "One thing that has been on my mind the last few weeks is how important it is to me that a zinnia have a short compact plant form. I grow in a sand/clay mix rather than topsoil. It will hold plants upright fine when dry, but when wet the soil looses its strength and the tall plants become vulnerable to wind knocking them over." You have made a good case that you do need zinnias with a more compact plant habit. Last year, we had a very violent storm with high winds of 50mph and it blew down literally dozens of my zinnias. I had concrete re-bar tomato cages around a few of my more critical "breeders" and they were protected. But many of my big zinnia plants snapped off at the ground and many more lost their basal branches and some lateral branches. Interestingly, some of my big bushy scabiosa flowered zinnias and most of those F1s with a "scabi" parent came through just fine, with amazing resistance to the high winds. As is usual in a high wind storm here, for a period of hours we lost our electrical power, our telephone land line, and our cable connection. I studied the wreckage in my zinnia patch to see "what went wrong" structurally with my zinnias. As is usual for me, there were some surprises. I plan to apply what I learned from my "crash investigation" to make better decisions about plant structure this year. For one thing, I had planted a lot of Burpeeanas, from both Burpee and from Stokes. I had a lot of "out of the seed packet" Burpeeanas and some F1 hybrids from crosses that I made between Burpeeanas. (Incidentally, your picture of the "original" red Burpeeanas shows just how nice that Burpeeana bushy look can be.) To my amazement, some of the most disastrous structural failures were in my Burpeeanas. They have what I refer to as a "candelabra" stem structure, with basal branches coming out from the main stem at a 90 degree angle. Even though the stems look thick and strong, there is a kind of "joint" at the attachment point. Some of the basal branches that were in contact with the soil had actually sprouted roots and were apparently in the process of becoming independent plants. It's almost as if the stem joint was "willing" to detach from the main stem. But even higher up, those branches that cantilevered out from the main stem at a 90-degree angle seemed inherently weak. In almost all cases, the branches broke at their attachment points to the main stem. The plants that seemed resistant to branches breaking off had their branches leaving the main stem at a much more acute angle, like 45 or even 30°. So their branches were headed upward at the attachment point. For whatever reason, those branches seemed much better attached, even if the plant habit was more generally upward than outward. Despite the fragility of the Burpeeana plants in high winds, I plan to continue growing them and selecting the best flowers and plants. I will just be looking for stronger attachment points for their branches. If you want to emphasize compactness in your zinnia breeding, you can start with some strains that are already compact and cross some other zinnias with them. I personally have quit crossing the lower growing zinnias because I don't like kneeling and bending over to do my cross pollinating. I've always had a tendency toward lower back pain from my gardening, and a lot of bending over just aggravates it. However, short zinnias are interesting looking and fascinating in crosses, so I am thinking about constructing some really high raised beds that might bring those short zinnias up to a more comfortable working distance. There are some short zinnias that you can cross with tall zinnias that will produce some intermediate compact F1 hybrids, and the F2s from them should sort out into a wide range of plants that you could pick from for further breeding. Three of the shortest are the Thumbelina zinnia, the Zinnita zinnia, and Zinnia Short Stuff. Here is another view of Short Stuff and here is another seed source: Short Stuff at New England seed. Some taller but still very compact zinnias are Zinnia Swizzle cherry and ivory, Zinnia Swizzle scarlet and yellow, Zinnia Dreamland hybrids, Zinnia Magellan mix, and I just found that Zinnia Peter Pan mix is apparently still available. By crossing some of those compact zinnias with other zinnias you should have the basis for creating several new strains of compact zinnias, with various degrees of compactness. MM...See MoreIt can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 41
Comments (112)Hi guys :) i don't mean to be rude & butt in the middle of your conversations but Im so eager to learn!! I'm in brooksville, Florida. Zinnias do well here (unlike many other flowers) : I just bought some zinnia seeds some from stores but most mail order :) :) I bought queen red lime- Zinderella peach & lilac, my favs!! - banarys giant mix - banarys giant salmon rose & giant wine - Candy mix- scabiosa mix- giant flowered mix- big tetra mix- Andes jewel-giant double mixed colors- giant enchantress, violet queen, double violet queen, bright pink, California white & California mix & cactus mix. This is my first year growing from seeds instead of transplants (accept for easy seeds -zinnias, sunflowers, ect..) my question is how do I make a new zinnia flower ? I didn't read all the posts on this thread. Am I supposed to take the pollen from a favorite zinnia and put it where on another ?? On the anthers? Which are the anthers on zinnia if so ? Also, is there a specific time this has to be done? I would like to try & cross pollinate to breed a few zinnias myself. Please help. I posted all zinnia seeds I bought hoping I could get some ideas on which to cross? And this is off zinnia topic but I figured u guys would know ! :) I have many seeds that need 65, 70-75• to germinate but being in Florida our mid day temps are rising well above 85-90• however, it cools down some at night being it's not summer yet. It can get down to 68-70• @ night. Will this inhibit germination of seeds that need 70• ?? If I plant seeds that need 70• and above and they're subjected to our hot days but get 70• temps at night will this inhibit all germination? Or will they still germinate but at a slower rate or will it decrease how many seeds actually germinate ?? I just figured if a seed doesn't need stratification, it's okay to plant at whatever temp as long as it's warm, it'll grow. But now that I've purchased some really nice seeds I don't want to take the chance of loosing any bc it was too hot for them to germinate or bc I did something wrong! Some seeds I bought only have 10 in a pack. So I have to be careful ! I don't have a good windowsill inside that I can place my seeds on for light if they need light & 70• temps to germinate ( we keep our air @ 69• @ all times) any suggestions ??? I apologize for butting in ! But I figured your the ones to ask for help :) thanks :)...See MoreIt can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 55
Comments (121)Zenman - lol. I don't know about expertise, but I did mention the process of denuding seeds to expose embryos a couple of times on daylily sites at facebook, and received about zero comment back. I suppose the input coming from a "newbie" like myself was ... what word to use?... presumptuous - that's it. I am definitely a very small fish in a giant ocean of professionals. Ah well, you're the one who taught me first to do it, and I saw that it was a helpful technique to hasten germination, and in some cases, allow germination when the seed coat was being especially resistant. And I have used it for some daylily seeds, and feel it has helped. Not always, you understand, but enough to make it a viable option in my book. Glad to hear you are getting some rain. They have been forecasting rain for us, but little has fallen. The various spring-marshy areas that are usually swimming with overflow at this time of year, are almost dry. I am a bit concerned about this presaging a summer drought; but maybe the rains are just delayed. I could certainly handle the rain coming during the heat of summer instead of now. :) Let me know if you are starting a new thread - I may chime in from time to time. Always enjoy seeing what new things you come up with. Alex...See MoreIt can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 56
Comments (112)Hi Cindi, Actually, I do have a few "newish" zinnias, because I have been growing some zinnias indoors throughout these cold late Fall and Winter months. I have taken some photos and I need to process the photos for upload here. I processed this photo this morning. That is a variation on my "exotic" zinnia flower form and in the juvenile stage, the petals resemble the "Woolly" zinnia petal form. The "Woolly" petals are closed at the end. The Woolly zinnia petals are "strong" by virtue of their totally enclosed structure. However, this means that the enclosed stigma cannot receive pollen unless the zinnia also has enclosed pollen-bearing anthers, which many of the Woolly zinnias do not have. Those Woolly petals can produce a seed only if the petal is surgically opened and pollen applied to the internal stigma. I concede that the "Woolly" zinnias are questionably attractive. I realize these details are of interest primarily to someone who is actively engaged in breeding zinnias. I have several zinnia photos in my camera which I will transfer to my computer so that I can show them here. I have really been enjoying my indoor zinnia activities. I am even considering continuing an indoor activity in parallel with my outdoor zinnia activities this coming Spring and Summer. There are advantages to indoor zinnias. For one thing, you have control of the photoperiod of indoor zinnias. Zinnia elegans is a facultative Short Day (long night) plant. More later. ZM...See Moresamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoZM - Well, I'll let you know when I switch to the other machine, which as I said, I'm assuming must be 64. Meanwhile, John just showed me how to do the screenshot that I used to be able to do before they "improved" things again.
OK, worked that time. Doesn't look the same as yours. But that's not surprising.
Anyway...time for some fun! Here are pics of my babies at present. First, the one I like the most so far. I'll be watching to see how it unfolds:
Another of it's siblings:
And another:
These are all selfs of this 2016 plant:
Others of interest:
Note that the yellow has a tubular petal. :)
At this time I have 3 whites that were crosses with a beautiful watermelon version of my lotus - none of them show influence of it, so they're probably really selfs of this 2016 white:
And I love the color on this one, though the petal shape doesn't interest me:
It's a cross between my yellow cactus and my cactus-y lotus from last year. Would have hoped for more cactus influence in the petals, but oh well. More later - thunderstorm on the way.
Brock - I see I didn't mention that I really like the coloration of that first bloom you posted. I am hopeful that the faint yellow accents in the center of some of the whites will not disappear as it ages.
- Alex
zen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHi Alex,
You top-of-the-list favorite has corrugated petals, which does set it apart.
Give that tubular petal special treatment. Assume it has a stigma inside that won't get fertilized unless you intervene. So intervene. Carefully split the petal to reveal the stigma and pollinate it with your "favorite" pollen. Plant the resulting seed in three weeks to a month and be prepared for its plant to bear non-tubular blooms.
But do not despair. Petal tubularity is usually Recessive. So self that non-tubular F1 and get as much seed yield from it as you can. When you plant those F2 seeds, you have a chance of some of them producing blooms with all-tubular petals. And you have a chance of getting various forms of tubular blooms -- different looking tubes. This "Starburst" is still one of my favorite tubular flowerforms.
But the tubular petals can come in many different forms, and tubular zinnias can evolve in many different ways.
To my knowledge no one has ever taken a single tubular petal and produced a race of tubular blooms from it before, so this may be a long shot. But I think it is worth taking, and you don't have a lot to lose.
Incidentally, those wide petals on your last photo have a charm of their own. And it has an amazing pastel color. It is a nice looking zinnia. One of my "back burner" goals is to develop a strain of zinnias with super wide petals.
That bloom had a few extra-wide petals, but it was only a hint of how extra wide petals might look. Since the petals varied a lot in width, I probably should have saved seeds from just the wide petals. Your techniques for marking individual zinnia petals weren't so impractical after all.
ZM
docmom_gw
6 years agozen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoninecrow
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoninecrow
6 years ago
Thanks Alex
Will Have a Proper Look At The Flowers and See IF I Can Find The Sex Parts.....
But Has ANYBODY Ever Pollinated a Pot Mum Before in The Home?zen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoNinecrow - ZM has pointed out probably the most important issue you'd be facing trying to make a cross with your potted tubular mum - getting the pollen. He's the expert on accessing pollen in tubular blooms, and even though he talks like it's a snap, it's not a straightforward process. Probably best to just buy another mum. :)
Anyway, PINK ALERT - sorry, but a number of my blooms this season are pink. Here are some of the latest:
Ironically, these top three are all unnamed for the reason that they are my leftovers that I used to plug into the tulip box after the tulips were done blooming. I had decided not to mark them, and now - of course - I wish I had! I can make a guess that the last one is probably one of the lotus descendants. Speaking of which, here is my current favorite - the new lotus which has evolved into an orange shade with a pink center. I absolutely LOVE this.
This next may have inherited the Dorian Gray gene that was dormant in my lotus strain. Or it could just be disease causing the spots on the petals. ZM, you know zinnia disease - what do you think? Unfortunately that early photo back on June 4 of one of the changling babies is exhibiting the rapid aging characteristic of the DG gene. Too bad. Will wait till second bloom on these to see if, in fact, this is the case.
Next, a self of last year's yellow - and it's yellow. Nice!
This one was a cross between a smaller sort of beige cactus and the yellow cactus. The bloom is smaller, but I really like the whole look of it. Am looking forward to second bloom to see if it gets larger and maintains it's pleasing shape and color.
Guess I'd better stop here, and I have to go do some stuff. More later.
- Alex
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agoOK - a few more. This single with the skinny petals may be a good match with some others for more variation:
Getting a lot of slug and earwig damage. May be time to sprinkle some diatomaceous earth.
Kind of partial to this cactus descendant of my lotus:
And that last single orange appeals to me as well, though generally I'm not so interested in singles. But I think a whole bed of these would be a knockout. It's parent was a self of a pink and white whirligig. Go figure.
- Alex
P.S. Lizzie, you still with us, lurking in the background? Wondering "how does your garden grow?"
zen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHi Alex,
We have had a few showers, but today was windy and dry and we actually now need some rain, and the weather people say we have a chance tomorrow. My in-ground Whirligigs in the South Garden are beginning to bloom, and it looks like about one percent of them will be breeder class. The South Garden is devoted almost exclusively to Whirligigs this year.
One percent doesn't sound like a lot, but there are several hundred plants in the South Garden, so I am optimistic that I will find a few breeder-class specimens. This one has some of the marbling that interests me. Its petal form is also a bit "wild". I will be looking for better examples of this form in the Whirligigs.
I will probably be doing some culling and maintenance on the South Garden tomorrow, weather permitting. There are a lot of small single blooms that will be culls. I hope to sprinkle some 13-13-13 fertilizer on the ground between the rows, and sprinkle a little Epsom Salts around as well. The South Garden is mostly native Silt soil, with some added sand. But it is rather low in nutrients, so I will be trying to do something about that. More later.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello Alex the Irritable,
All things considered, you are entitled to be irritable. I have occasionally sprained an ankle, but I never went all the way and broke it. Bummer. They should make all-terrain wheelchairs specially designed for gardeners. I don't need a wheelchair, but if it were designed right, I would pounce on a gardening-enabled wheelchair, just as a more comfortable way to garden. As it is, I do as much gardening as I can from a comfortable seated position. For several years now I have been making virtually daily use of a Tractor Scoot from Gardeners Supply.
In fact, I used my Tractor Scoot today for several hours rolling around in my South Garden doing some bloom-time culling of my Whirligigs. I had a 5-gallon plastic bucket on the back to toss the culls into. I do all of my seed sowing from a seated position, and a lot of close-in weeding with a hand hoe from the seat of my tractor scoot. Now might be a good time for you to give one a try.
One of my Whirligigs has an interesting variation on the bicolor coloration.
Only about 10% of them have bloomed so far, so there are a lot more potential surprises. More later. I feel for you on that broken ankle. That is not fun.
ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoOK, so I make a lousy patient - I can't sit still for long! Went out and took pics, but didn't carry my notebooks - thus, I ended up simply numbering these until I can get out there tomorrow and sort out which one is which. Here they are:
That last one is one of those I'd crossed with Green Envy - I think it might have been the full double white, but I'll have to wait till I have my ntbks in hand to confirm that. Forgot who was asking about crosses with the green zinnias. I sort of think I can see a green tinge, but maybe I'm imagining it.
- Alex
zen_man
6 years agoHi Alex,
" Not sure if because of all the straw I put down in the paths, that one
of the scooters would move well through the garden. It's the kind of
thing that I wouldn't want to make the investment unless I'd had the
opportunity to try it out. "Yeah. That straw would probably bog it down. Its tires are fat enough to "float" on packed sand, but straw is another thing. I doubt that a local store has one that you could try as a loaner. You might try a medical supply place for something equivalent to an all-terrain wheelchair. There is an all-terrain version of the two-wheeled Segway If that thing would pull a plow, I might get one. But, alas, no plow pulling version.
You currently have better breeder zinnias than I do. I really like the "look" of that last one, and your current first one is a current great looking open-structured bi-color.
This is a little current Whirligig that has an open flower form and narrow petals that I like for its possibilities when crossed with larger zinnias of the Burpeeana type.
Right now I am just looking for potential good specimens to include in a cross, rather than ones that are good enough to stand on their own. More later. Hope your ankle is feeling better, or less bad.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoZM - thanks for the heads-up about the pollen. I was believing it lasted a few days. Well, I will just have to wait till just before we leave their place to come to mine - no more than a 40 minute drive. After which I could hobble out to the garden as fast as I can with brushes, and wax paper envelope with pollen, already in hand. You're saying RoseAlice had an explanation for why the pollen was so short-lived?
Oh, while it's in my head - a question, perhaps silly, that's been bugging me. When I pluck one of the pollen florets, the bloom does produce other pollen florets to replace it, right? Before this little incident with my ankle, I was mostly "flying" back and forth between blooms with my brushes coated with pollen - but now it's way too awkward and tiring to do that, and I pluck a floret or two or three and carry them to the "mother" plant to eliminate the extra footwork. But it's making me uneasy, wondering about when - and if - my male donor will be able to provide me with more pollen.
Last thing, totally off the zinnia subject, but still about hybridizing - did you see my new baby? The first of my daylily hybrids to bloom! It's sort of an unusual color. :)
Oh, and Happy 4th!
- Alex
zen_man
6 years agoHi Alex,
" You're saying RoseAlice had an explanation for why the pollen was so short-lived? "
Basically just because zinnia pollen is trinucleate. Trinucleate pollen is short-lived. That is mentioned in Flower Breeding and Genetics and also on Tom Clothier's page.
There is undoubtedly a better explanation elsewhere, but I don't know where at the moment. Actually, I am surprised that Flower Breeding and Genetics did not go into it in more detail. If RoseAlice sees this, she can supply a much better explanation, because "she knows stuff." As I recall, the details are rather bizarre, and include the chromosome count of the zinnia seed leaves being different from the rest of the plant. Or something like that.
" When I pluck one of the pollen florets, the bloom does produce other pollen florets to replace it, right? "
Right. Zinnias can produce new pollen florets every day, although not all of them do. Some don't produce any pollen florets until maybe "scared" by withholding water. And some may not even respond to that. But typical zinnias produce new pollen florets every morning.
" ...did you see my new baby? "
You seem to be blessed with an abundance of beginner's luck. Your first seedling is a chocolate daylily !!! You could probably register that thing. Just out of curiosity, when (including the year) did you pollinate that beauty?
Meanwhile, back in the Whirligig patch. I kind of like the pointed petals on this specimen. Kind of reminds me of fireworks.
We got a good rain this morning. So all the local fireworks are less likely to start a fire. Happy 4th.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHi Alex,
" Do you really like that color? I was a bit unsure about it since it's
not the usual, but it's my first, so of course I can't help but be
enamored with it! I was calling that color "mahogany", but I guess
"chocolate" suits it as well. "I do really like that "dark chocolate" color, and I would be pleased to get a zinnia that color. Come to think of it, combining dark purple and orange might get fairly close. So that color might be possible in a zinnia.
This specimen in my Whirligig patch reminds me of that first photo of yours in that last series of zinnias that you showed. It was one of my favorites.
A little over half of my Whirligigs are in bloom now, so there is still a possibility of new good specimens there. But they are obeying Sturgeon's Law and at least 90% of them are culls. However, that tends to be the case with my recombinant zinnias in general. Which reminds me, I need to do some more culling in my Whirligig patch. I am also planting some old Scabious Flowered seed from Thompson & Morgan. They came from Holland, and they look clean and viable. More later. Hope your ankle is better.
ZM
zen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoThose are some nice ones, NC. I agree with the Zenman about that white - great form! And the yellow sort of reminds me of the style I've been playing with that I call my "lotus".
You probably purposely chose 4 very different forms to post to give us a range of what you have. Curious to know if you grew these from saved seed or if they are from commercial packets - or maybe both.
Of course, saving seed doesn't mean you'll end up with something that looks like that plant. Here's a point in case. This bloom is a "self" of a yellow cactus bloom - I had no part in pollinating this particular seed. However, its yellow parent was situated in the garden last year between oranges and reds - so bees probably did some work for me. Nice job, bees! And as it ages, this bloom is showing more clearly it's whirligig ancestry in that pinkish tone at its center.
nchomegarden
6 years agoninecrow
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agoNC - I totally understand the idea of no space and time. It is a concept which consumes my waking hours. Well, you can see what the bees are capable of in my one example up there, so tell them to "have at it!"
Ninecrow - you do pose some interesting questions. That book does exist, but unfortunately costs a small fortune, so I haven't got one myself, though I've seen the listings for it online. But I'm sure ZM will check his to see if they talk about poinsettas.
Meanwhile, here's another non-pink zinnia for you. :) This is the same one I posted last Sunday - the one that ZM liked. It's changing colors a bit in an interesting way.
- Alex
zen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years ago
Rachel Cross- Harder
6 years agoRachel Cross- Harder
6 years agoRachel Cross- Harder
6 years agozen_man
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello everyone,
I have been trying to get a very dark color in zinnias, and this South Garden Whirligig is one my darkest so far.
Zinnia Haageanas are capable of much darker colors, like this "Jazzy" that I grew indoors last Winter.
I tried pollinating a dark Jazzy with "big zinnia" pollen, and it remains to be seen whether I got any viable seeds out of that. That dark Whirligig was out-of-the-packet from some older 2015 Stokes Whirligig seeds.
I have had Benary's Giants Wine that were a comparable dark Cerise, with much larger blooms. A long-term goal of mine is a near black large zinnia. And also a near-black spider flowered zinnia with light tips, like the Jazzy above. More later. Our heat index is currently brutal.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agoZM - Sorry to hear about the heat. Hope there aren't mosquitoes with that. Ugh - we have plenty of those at the moment.
That's a pretty dark zinnia. And a dark pretty zinnia. You've got me hooked on the idea of darker flowers. And inadvertently you've got me hooked on breeding daylilies. Nice going, Zensei. Of course, I can't give up the zinnia breeding since it provides something closer to instant gratification, and because...well, zinnias are zinnias, and nothing like daylilies. LOL. But now that I see that a good proportion of the daylilies are blooming the 2nd year, it's a little more intriguing to think about making my own crosses.
Rachel - I looked at the Queen Red Lime, but decided it didn't quite appeal to me either. And I guess I only tried the Green Envy for the novelty of it. It has, however, produced that interesting look posted up above last Friday, when crossed with my yellow cactus breeder last year. That two-tone is getting even more pronounced with age. Sorry to hear about the card-draining issues.
Gotta go, but here's a red I'm sort of fond of at the moment:
And one of the no-names on the patio (really should have labeled them...):
- Alex
zen_man
6 years ago
Rogelio Cruz
6 years agoHi everybody! Just joined because I grow zinnias and year after year can't stop!
just wanted to say I'm glad I found this site.
My question is I wanted to grow zinnias indoors, over the winter after reading this blog is it safe to assume an 8/12 light schedule would induce flowering? 8 0n 12 hours off? I always start my zinnias like zenman, Indoors during March under a fluorescents. I than transplant the seedlings outdoors and thats that. Also when breeding if I find a specimen I want to collect or chuck the pollen would I just clip the head off and dust the flower I want to seed to see what happens?zen_man
6 years ago
zen_manOriginal Author