9" wide spice drawers are of minimal use to me. I would merge them into the adjacent drawers and get 36" of width. My preference is to lay spices out flat (or on a Revashelf sloped display insert) in a drawer that is about 6" deep so I don't have to bend down to see them. Others may have a different opinion.

How wide is the aisle between the sink and the island? It should be 42" minimum, 48" preferred especially since the dishwasher opens into this aisle. If your plan is to scale it looks like the aisle is well under 36" and that is way too narrow. Also I would consider a large single sink rather than a double sink. Single sinks give you a lot of flexibility for large items.

What do you plan to store behind the cabinet doors on the island? I'd merge the 2 end cabinets with doors into another stack of drawers.

Also wondering how much space between island and cabinets

Good question. I will check on aisle widths. The island can be moved out from stove section, but yes, we'll need ample space for dishwasher.

Stan Z, that's what I was thinking, merging those drawers. A friend of mine has spice drawers like that and I find them nice to have instead of bending over. Thanks.

You could put spices laid out flat in a top drawer on one side of the range and utensils on the other side. I put oils in the same deep drawer I keep pots and pans in. I have oils sitting in a glass pan so the oil doesn't drip down onto the drawer itself (a pet peeve of mine). You could also put them in a caddy that you lift out of the drawer when you use the oil. Works well for us.

If you haven't done it already, make a plan for where you will store things in the new kitchen - and be as thorough as possible. Try to keep things near their point of use: spices, potholders, cooking utensils, pots and pans near the stove; knives and cutting boards near the prep area; dishes near the cleanup area; a convenient place for storage containers, towels, bags and wraps, trash and recycling.

Consider where you will put larger items - I put small appliances in my super susan, since I don't really have a pantry; many folks use the space over their fridge for vertical storage of cookie sheets, platters, and cake pans.You may have items specific to your needs - I have a big pot for canning, plus storage for canning jars (full and empty).

As you lay out where things will go, you will find out if your space is laid out correctly, or if you are missing something important. As you're doing this, consider the final look and operation of your kitchen.Will you have appliances like a mixer, blender, or toaster sitting out? If not, where will you keep them?

One of my remodel goals was to get clutter off the counters, so I included a knife drawer, and a couple of outlets in a cabinet, so charging cables could be out of sight. I got rid of a desk in the kitchen, but added file drawers, and a drawer for desk stuff: pens, tape, stapler, etc.

I just called our kitchen guy. The aisle between dishwasher section and island is 40" but he said he can cut island length from 108" to 100" to give us the extra space. I didn't want to take it from the other side because our fridge is there and that is a walkway from mudroom through the kitchen.

Thanks AnnKH! I haven't done that yet but definitely will.

I love having my spices in a drawer, laid flat so I can read the labels. They are in square bottles. Some people use a lot of oils and vinegars so I could see how the pullouts would be preferable, especially when there are no uppers to store bottles. I use olive oil daily, so I keep it on my counter in a nice bottle with a pour spout. I really wouldn't like bottles in a deep drawer.

Here is a thread about spice pull-outs flanking cooktops:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3866883/pullouts-next-to-cook-top?n=23

If you want to see quite a lot of photos, here is a link to a thread on the subject of spice drawers mentioned above:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2574021/do-you-have-a-spice-drawer-you-love

Thanks everyone! Do you guys think we should cut the island off and make it 100" instead of 108" to allow for a 48" aisle on dishwasher side? I think we could still have 4 people comfortably at the island.. 25" each.

A 100" long island is still pretty big. It almost looks like the "right" end of the island is encroaching in the walkway. Do you think this end of the island should align with the short return wall at the end of the stove run? Also, I like having a narrow open base cabinet (12" wide?) next to my range to store upright cookie sheets and cutting boards. You could consider this instead of the 9" spice pullouts.

wysel, thanks. I think 100" is still a good size too. There is actually a small pantry door to the right of the stove that isn't shown here. I think that walkway will be ok. I was wondering about a skinny cupboard for cookie sheets too, but I don't want to throw the symmetry off beside the stove. Here is an updated copy of what beside stove might look like now.. Would it be weird to have a skinny cupboard on one side?

OR I could leave it as I have above with 2 9" skinny cupboards for taller bottles of oil and vinegars on one side, and cookie sheets on the other. Hrrrm

I wouldn't devote a base cabinet near the stove for cookie sheets. I had that pre-remodel and didn't like searching for a pan in a cabinet below the counter, so now they are in a narrow upper cabinet above a pantry pull-out adjacent to my fridge. You could put dividers in the upper cabinet to the left of the fridge for cookie sheets, cooling racks, pizza pans, and cutting boards. That upper cabinet could be shortened too, giving another shelf to the main cabinet. You could make it the height of the cabinet over the MW for symmetry.

What will you put in that 38" cabinet since you have a walk-in pantry? Maybe you'd like to make that cabinet a little narrower so that the fridge isn't directly opposite the island, making a pinch point when the door is open.

If the designer claims that there is a 40" aisle between the sink and island, ask for a to scale drawing. Better yet, measure the room yourself. I think something is not right.

You should have a prep sink on the island for good ice-water-stone-fire flow.

Trash should be in the prep area (island, if it has a sink).

I love my 12" full height base cabinet with a pullout for oils, etc. Also love my other cabinet the same size for trays. I hate my 33" drawer (too wide, everything is a mess). Love spice drawer.

That aisle is not 40" - at least not the true aisle width. It's a lot less based on your layout.

First, aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out into the aisle the farthest - counter edges, appliance doors & handles, etc. They are not measured cabinet-to-cabinet. Cabinets without the doors or drawer fronts are 24" deep. Counters overhang cabinets by 1.5". So, to start, your aisles are most likely at least 3" narrower than you think they are - and that's not counting the appliances.

Second, here are the minimum recommended work aisle widths:

• One-person work aisle (and always one person)...42" (but, I recommend at least 45" in front of the DW)
• Two or more people working...48"

All your aisles are too tight.

.

Other issues:

• Your island is a barrier island b/w the refrigerator and sink (where your primary Prep Zone will be located)

• How do you plan to use the island? It will not work as a Prep Zone b/c there is no water source in the island. If you add a prep sink to your island, you make your island much more useful and eliminate the "barrier island" issue now that the Prep Zone is in the island and not on the perimeter b/w the sink and range.

• What type of refrigerator are you planning? True
  built-in? Counter-depth? Standard-depth? Your layout is showing a true built-in. If that's the case, then your aisle is just barely wide enough - you will have an issue if someone has the refrigerator open b/c that person & open refrigerator will block the aisle (and create a bottleneck), but at least you will be able to open the refrigerator. But, if you ever have to take it out, you may not have enough aisle space to safely maneuver it.
  If you have any other type of refrigerator, your aisles are too narrow - especially since that's a major thoroughfare through the Kitchen.
  -- True built-ins are approximately 27" deep
  -- Counter-depth are approximately 30" deep
  -- Standard-depth are approximately 36" deep
  (You can make a standard-depth look counter-depth by recessing the standard-depth into the wall behind it a few inches.)
  -- Note: Both counter-depth and standard-depth refrigerator doors must stick out past all surrounding walls, cabinets, counters, etc., to be able to open the doors fully without having to pull the refrigerator out.

• Are you doing custom cabinets? Semi-custom? Stock? I'm asking b/c I see several that are not "standard" width cabinets - standard width are increments of 3". If custom or semi-custom, you'll be fine with non-standard widths, but if stock, you will not be able to have 19", 28", 31", etc., wide cabinets.

• Those spice pullouts - I would not do them, I would merge them into the adjacent drawer bases. They look nice, but they end up not being very functional. I have a set of them flanking my cooktop - I've discovered that I don't like them, even though they "look" nice! I will never do them again! I'd do what Mayflowers suggested above.

.

I think you will find these resources very helpful:

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads - These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Layout Help - FAQ for asking for layout help. It has a sample measured layout as well as a description of the other information we need

.

Layout Help:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

.

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

.

Why I say the aisles are not what your contractor/designer says they are:

(Is your "kitchen guy" a true Kitchen Designer? Or, is he a GC or cabinet salesperson? There's a big difference...)

OP, I completely agree about putting in a prep sink on your island, closer to the fridge. Right now, as Buehl says, imagine your cooking process. You will take vegetables out of the fridge, and walk all the way over to the other side of the kitchen to rinse them. Then, will you really turn around to chop them at the island? Or will you just stay where you are at the sink to get them ready for the stove? Chances are your island as is will just be in the way. With a prep sink closer to the fridge, not only is everything efficiently at hand, but someone else can be unloading the dishwasher and not be in the way of the cook at all.

On that note, my concern here is where you plan to store your dishes and cutlery? If that's the plan for the bank of drawers beside the dishwasher, that's fine, but if you were planning on putting them in the uppers beside the fridge, that's a LONG way away from the clean-up station... Perhaps you were thinking drawers in the island?

I agree the island is too long on the right and the left side needs more space as well. I just went through this! My island started out 9'5" and bc of Houzz my island is much shorter but I have an awesome and big island still and great aisle widths to help with circulation. When I started I wanted a great island with 36" aisles now I have 42"-48" everywhere and 55" on fridge side! So happy I shortened the island up.

Some modifications to resolve most of the issues. I would really like another 2" on the DW/island aisle, 3" on the range/island aisle, and 6" on the refrigerator/island aisle. However, without widening the Kitchen, I don't think you can do that and have a functional island.

Note that this is with a built-in refrigerator as you have in your original layout. If you have a counter-depth or standard-depth, then you will need to think about what's more important to you - a functional aisle width or wider island. [Note: Taking up to 6" off the island will still make it functional, it will just reduce our prep workspace to 42" from 48" - still a nice amount of prep workspace.]

.

[Click/select picture to enlarge.]

.

.

Zone Map:

With a counter-depth refrigerator (or a standard-depth recessed into the back wall a few inches)

Wow, you guys are awesome. I really appreciate the input.

Our "kitchen" guy is not a designer. He is an experienced cabinet maker/estimator for a Mennonite cabinet company that we are going with. All cabs are custom-made. He is going from a design from someone else we had

I know on our plans the total length of the room from sink side to fridge side is 20' 9". I am going to go to the site and measure for myself as it's not framed.

I don't think we'll be able to go for the sink at this point. We are at our brim with extras/upgrades. I had pictured the island as a place to eat meals with our kids (4 of us). The island will have a thick butcher block wood top.

I'm not overly familiar with verbiage for fridge types, but here are the specs:

I am planning to keep everyday dishes and cutlery in the 2 banks of drawers beside the dishwasher. Wouldn't want to walk all the way over to the other side.

I'm going to go measure and will post here after later today. Thanks!

Stop everything if there is any uncertainty about measurements!!!

If you give us the manufacturer & model #, we can tell you. From the looks of what you posted, It looks like it's a shallower standard-depth - 33-1/2" deep with handles, from what I can tell. I suggest recessing it into the wall behind it 3" or so - that will make it appear counter-depth.

You only have one bank of drawer next to the DW...do you mean the one drawer base?

If all four of you are going to be eating at this island, then you will need to re-design the island. As it stands, you desperately need to shorten the island significantly to get even a marginal aisle b/w the sink wall and island. You will also need to re-size it to fit four.

Where is your Dining Room or other table space? Table seating is much, much more comfortable for regular meals, especially dinner and better for family bonding (especially important with children as they are growing up). Island seating is more for quick meals. In addition, having all 4 seats all in a row is not conducive to family bonding and conversation - it's the type of seating for a diner with strangers who do not want to look at each other or converse. So instead of 4 seats like ducks sitting all in a row, have seating on two sides.

For each seat you need:

• Minimum 24" linear space
• Minimum 15" of clear leg/knee space for the seating overhang - more if you or anyone in your family is above average in height or has long legs (or will be tall!)

I would also rearrange the refrigerator wall to eliminate the "barrier island" issue.

Something like this:

Note: I put in an 18" overhang for one set of seats, just in case! (I wish we had done the 18" overhang - we're a relatively tall family.) I also increased the aisle b/w the refrigerator wall and island to accommodate seating as well as the refrigerator, major traffic, and workspace behind the seats

Zone Map:

Hi Buehl, I guess I meant the other bank of drawers to the right of the sink for dishes/cutlery as well as to the left of the DW. I really like your plans. We had the trash pull out in the island but yours is much better I think. Our beverage fridge is just a 15" one.. Thank you so much.

Since your only water source is on the perimeter, that's where you will do most of your prepping - next to the sink and b/w the range and sink. Trash pullouts work best when they're in the Prep Zone and near the Cooking Zone and Cleanup Zone. Far more trash & recyclables are generated while prepping and cooking than while cleaning up and for a much longer period of time. (70%+ of the time/work spent in the Kitchen is spent prepping, 10% time is spent cooking, 20% or less time is spent cleaning up. So, 80% or more of your time is spent prepping & cooking.)

Buehl, I'm going to bring these changes to 'kitchen guy' as he will forever be known. Do you think having those 2 seats on the edge will be in the way at all, of fridge seekers or people walking through? Or will we have ample room?

Layout #3. buehl has provided enough room for people to be seated AND use the fridge. The fridge is offset too, so you won't be standing directly behind the seats on the island. You'll grab your ingredients, walk over to the sink and prep in the area between the sink and the stove. That is the 'natural' flow of things. You can then focus on cleanup to the other side of the sink - and that's also not in the way of seating, or in the traffic flow and you will even be able to get past with the DW door down.

BRAVO.

Kitchen guy needs to take notice. It's nice that you can do all custom, but he needs some lessons in functionality AND honesty in measurements.

Update: Measured the entire room today - from sink side to fridge side is 250". So 2x24" cabinets on both perimeters + 100" island = 148" leaving 100 or so inches to be divided for either side. So despite his drawings not being to scale or things properly place, I think he was right that we'll have ample room. I'm going to post a shot of our drawings which probably would have been helpful to begin with. With that pantry cab in the corner the fridge will actually be right in the aisle. with a clear shot to the sink area.

I think we'll leave the island as is with seating on one side since I do think we have the room for it now. I made other changes that I love though, trash pullout beside the sink. And put 9" vertical cupboards on either side of the stove for cutting boards and cookie sheets (those drawers were pretty wide anyways.

Thanks so much for everyone's thoughtful comments and Buehl for your awesome drawings!

I'm just going to chime in that I agree that a spice drawer is better than below counter pull-outs. I'm curious what you have decided for storage of oils, etc. I'm also looking for options.

I'd still do seating on two sides - as I mentioned b/f, 4 seats - like ducks sitting all in a row in a shooting gallery - are not very conducive to friendly meals together. I strongly recommend reducing the island to allow seating on two sides. It's not like your island is so small that you cannot afford the space. However, it's your Kitchen and you're the one who has to live with it, not me, so if you're OK with it, then go ahead.

Whatever you do with the seating, add a prep sink to the island to make it useful as something more than a place to eat.

BTW...the last layout you posted has a much better layout than what you started with in the first post. Any idea why the layout in the first post is more than 2' off? If it's the "Kitchen Guy's" measurements, talk to him ASAP about the measurements!

Also, perimeters are 25.5" deep each, not 24". Base cabinet boxes are 24" deep - that's without the doors/drawer fronts and without counters.

Given the new measurements...

• Assuming the island is in front of the refrigerator like in your original layout:
  25.5" Sink counter
  + 48" aisle b/w sink counter and island
  + 100"W island
  + 48" aisle b/w island and refrigerator
  + 33.5"D refrigerator
  + 1" air clearance behind the refrigerator (required per installation instructions)
  ===============================
  256"--> 6" more than what you have
  If you go with this one -- I recommend reducing the island by at least 6" to provide a 48" aisle b/w the refrigerator and the island. Since it's a busy aisle, consider more for a wider aisle so it's not a bottleneck when the refrigerator is open.

• If the refrigerator is completely offset from the island:
  25.5" Sink counter
  + 48" aisle b/w sink counter and island
  + 100"W island
  + 51" aisle b/w island & ref wall counters (3" for a bit more diagonal room b/w island & ref)
  + 25.5.5"D refrigerator wall counters
  ===============================
  250"

• So - you need to completely offset the refrigerator.

.

"...trash pullout beside the sink..."

Only if you don't have a sink in the island. If you have a sink in the island, then the trash pullout should go next to it b/c it will get a lot more use in that location.

What I'm noticing on the plans is the 2x6 wall behind the fridge that's also labeled as load bearing. Is this new construction or a remodel? Either way talk to your contractor about recessing the refrigerator into this space even if it means you have to put a header into the load bearing wall. This will make a huge difference! WIth everything you are putting into this very nice kitchen you don't want the fridge to stick out a foot into the room! That would also solve your dimension problem and give you very close to the 48" aisles AND the 100" island you want. There will be no perceptible difference between 47" and 48" aisles so you have a little flexibility there. Both are generous. Difference between a 42" and 48" aisle is noticeable, and as you get smaller every inch counts!