Hi Ray,

As I always say, Alicinwonderland is the person on here you want to hear from for water treatment.

So the thing to understand about efficiency is that:

1.) when people talk about a "30k grain or a 48k grain water softener", they are talking about at 15 lbs of salt per cubic foot of resin (which is very high).

2.) Resin doesn't regenerate on a linear scale - in other words, if you were to cut back to say 7.5 lbs of salt per cubic foot of resin it only reduces the capacity by 27%,

If you want regenerate once a week, you could go with a little bit larger system and then dial down the salt settings from 15 lbs a cubic foot to half that.

There are some real deals on Amazon for water softeners with Fleck 5600 SXT valves. I got my 48k grain system with 10% crosslinked resin for $550 delivered (and no sales tax).

Thanks for the response, Jake. I'll watch for a response from Alice but in the mean time, maybe you can help me understand a few things. First, no matter how much salt and water are combined in the brine tank, only so much salt is going to dissolve into the water, right? So if I use 10 pounds of salt or 50 pounds of salt and add 10 gallons of water, the brine solution will have the same saltiness at the end of a week. If I left it for a year, the water would still be just as salty because unless you heat it or agitate it, the water is only going to absorb so much salt. I seem to recall from high school chemistry that that is called a saturated solution. That solution, because it was made from hard water and salt, will contain calcium molecules and salt molecules. Correct me if I'm wrong so far.

Next, the brine is flooded over the resin beads and the salt molecules cling to the beads. I assume the calcium molecules, if any are on the beads already, get displaced by the salt and flushed down the drain. But I thought that the process of softening hard water involved replacing calcium molecules which are attracted to the beads, with salt molecules which are released from the beads. So during the regen process, the exact opposite occurs? The beads release calcium molecules and attract salt molecules? What am I missing?

If I accept all of the above as magic, there's still the question of efficiency. You mentioned 15 pounds of salt, 1 cubic foot of resin and the removal of 30K grains of hardness. I've seen that set of numbers elsewhere, too. I understand that if I increase the efficiency setting of the softener, as little as 3.5 pounds of salt in the same 1 cubic foot of resin will remove only 15K grains of hardness. Makes sense. Less salt, less calcium removal before the salt is gone. It's not clear how 3.5 pounds of salt can remove 15,000 grains of hardness while it takes four times as much salt (15 pounds) to remove twice as much calcium (30,000 grains). I appreciate that this is not 100% efficient and that there will be some waste, but it sounds like a lot.

I'm liking the Amazon prices as long as I can get confident on what I should buy.

Ray,

You are right, the salt water solution (brine) in the tank reaches a saturated level and it's not going to be able to dissolve any more salt until fresh water is added that will then lower the concentration of salt in the brine. At that point additional salt pellets will dissolve until it hits saturation level again.

You are basically correct about the regen process... the high concentration of sodium ions from the brine will displace the calcium ions. It's the high concentration of sodium that causes the calcium ions to displace.

You understand that some things operate on a principle of "diminishing returns" -- that's the way that the sodium ion exchange works with the resin. If you regen a cubic foot of resin with 7.5 pounds of salt, you will get you about 22k grains of capacity. Bump that up to 15 pounds and you get 30k grains. Above 15 pounds per cubic foot you don't significant increases of capacity. I stole this chart and it shows the how the most efficient dosing of salt is around 7 - 7.5 lbs per cu foot. Notice how the dark blue line starts leveling off about 8 and really starts bending at about 10.

On your valve you have settings that will allow you to set the salt dosage and also then the total capacity. There is a metering device on the line going to the brine tank that will figure into things once you have the unit in your hands. It may be that metering device that's the missing piece in your understanding. The metering device tells you the number of pounds of salt per minute.

So, let's say that metering orifice says 1.5 , A brine fill time of 10 minutes on a 1 cubic foot of resin softener would give you 15 lbs of salt per 1 cubic foot and a total capacity of 30k grains.

If you dial the brine fill time down to 5 minutes with the same metering orifice, then you are talking about 7.5 lbs on that same 1 cubic foot. You would also set the valve to 22k grain capacity.

Keep in mind that I'm a newbe at the water treatment stuff... and Aliceinwonderland may tell you something different.

Thank you. Believe it or not, I think I understood all of that. So, a 1.5 cu ft Fleck 5600 SXT. It's good to know you saw nothing too worrisome in the condition of my water. Again, thank you. I appreciate your time in explaining that.

Jake,

My two main points of confusion were:

1. How do you meter a given weight of salt when it's been dissolved in water. The answer is that you measure the volume of liquid brine which contains a known concentration of salt, either by directly measuring the volume of liquid or the amount of time it should take that volume to be transferred. So a "salt dose" is really a "salt brine dose". I think I get it.

2. If the resin promotes the gathering of calcium and the release of sodium in the softening process, how do you use sodium to remove the calcium from the same resin beads. I accept that the sodium is overwhelming the calcium to accomplish that. That's probably all I need to know anyway.

So I'll be shopping for a Fleck 5600SXT and a 1.5 cu ft system. It sounds like I don't need any additional filtering or treatment. It looks like that should cost about $650. Aliceinwonderland mentioned a local purchase to get professional installation. I'm confident I can install it. I'm less confident I can configure, maintain and troubleshoot it when needed.

Ray,

The one that I purchase from Amazon from 602abcWater is $572 with free delivery.

There are lots of videos for programming the valve and it's pretty easy.

I think you will do just fine. If your situation was more complicated or if you didn't know which end of a screwdriver to hold on to, I would say get it locally.

I would also get a Hach test kit so you can reliably check your hardness level before and after the install.

BTW: I'm still very happy that I bought a softener, and have been very pleased with this particular one.

Take a photo when you are done and let us know how it goes. We don't get the satisfaction of a follow-up very often.

I have this test kit from Hanna. But I might just add the Hach kit and check the hardness two different ways. The softener you linked to comes up as $615.20 for me and it says it ships from and sold by Amazon. On the other sellers page, 602abcWATER has it for $695.08. I'll have to call them to see what's going on.

That one for $615 says it has UPGRADED HIGH capacity 10% resin. I found another listing of the same softener on Amazon from 602abcWATER without the upgraded resin for $580.71. I still need to talk to them about the bypass I do not need and changing out to 3/4" connections.

The green link in my previous post should take you to the one with upgraded resin for $572 from 602abcWATER..... OK it was $572 this AM. They were good to deal with and would buy from them again.

The bypass is modular - just pitch it if you don't want it. I installed a 3 ball valve bypass and didn't use the modular bypass that came with. The inlet size is modular as well, but if they can't easily accommodate you then just adapt it down to 3/4".

Your test kit is fine.

This is too weird. Your link should go to https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YFOTWZG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

When I click on it, it changes to https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YFOTWZG?ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00&redirect=true&psc=1&pldnSite=1

and I get this:

Anyway, 602abcWATER does have good ratings.

Since you have well water, the 10% crosslinked resin really won't buy you anything - it has a slightly higher capacity, but not enough to make a difference for you, and higher resistance to chlorine damage, but you don't have chlorine in your water. If you can get it for the same price, it won't hurt anything.

If ordering online also verify, in writing, that a gravel underbed is included. Often they won't want to do it because it increases shipping weight, but it's important.

Ordered today from 602abcWater but forgot to ask about the gravel bed. I've left him a message about that. 5600SXT, 1-1/2 cu ft 8% resin, 11" square brine tank, 3/4" connections, will discard the included bypass. $575. Only thing I was surprised to hear was that all resin is made in China. He says that even Dow and Purolite are made there. Thoughts on that?

Let me translate that for you: "We don't sell the resin you requested and will make up a lie to make it sound like ours is just as good." Ask him for a complete spec sheet on the resin, complete with charts for:

1. hardness bleed vs salt dosage
2. hardness: capacity ratios
3. sodium : capacity ratios
4. TDS: capacity ratios
5. Capacity vs salt dosage charts

As far as I can find, Nelsen does not provide this information, forcing us to use conservative estimates based on our general resin knowledge. Reputable manufacturers provide the information necessary to accurately specify systems.

I respect AIW, and I'm not invalidating what is being said...However, I think that a lot of softeners in that price range have no-name resin. Use it for 8-10 years and replace the resin when it's time with some from Dow or Purolite

In my opinion, the problem is not so much the inferior resin. Although I much prefer a quality resin, this can be dealt with. The problem is that a company that will lie about, or is ignorant or stupid enough to believe the lie themselves despite working in the water treatment industry, will lie about other things as well, or be too ignorant or stupid to specify, size, set up, etc. the equipment. We all draw our own lines we won't cross - dealing with people and/or companies that lack integrity and/or expertise in their own business happens to be one of mine.

I'll ask for the brand name and spec sheet, but I must say that I spent the last two hours looking for a Google image of any resin package or product spec sheet with "Made in the USA" printed on it and haven't found one. Most packages don't identify the source but I did find a Dowex package with "Made in Italy" and several others made in China, India and Malaysia. Some packages say their product is certified by the USDA, FDA or NSF but even those packages are mum on the source. Many vendors claim to sell made in USA resin but no one has posted a picture of that statement on a resin package. Several sell resin in clear unmarked plastic bags or unlabeled white boxes claiming it's food grade made in USA Purolite C100E. That looks suspicious. I'm really surprised, especially in the current political and economic climate, that no American manufacturer of this stuff proudly displays "Made in the USA" on their package. I'm beginning to think that 602abcWater is right. None of it is made here.

Alice, I appreciate what you're saying, but I can't find any proof that he's lying about anything.

I'm not going to beat this horse much longer... but here's my take on this and it applies to a larger conversation:

If an end user wants the benefit of expert knowledge and good service, then by all means I think they should enlist the help of a local water treatment service and expect to pay for that expertise and service.

If an end user has reasonably simple needs and is willing to do some research and learn, get his/her hands dirty, and have something that does a "pretty good job" for significantly less money - then an online purchase of a water softener can be an option.

I feel like these softeners on Amazon provide a good value, using a good valve and otherwise commodity parts. They offer a higher-quality and better-service alternative to going to a big box store and getting something. However, they shouldn't be measured using the same yardstick as a local treatment expert.

What makes me angry are the outfits that charge like they are attorneys, will lecture you about being professionals when they are questioned about the rate, and still not deliver the expertise or service. Case in point is the user on here who was charged $700 to hook up a water softener and they didn't include an air gap in the drain. Also, the man who had lost all of his resin in his kinetico water softener twice after paying big to have it fixed once.

RayMO,

The feedback from the purchasers of the unit that you purchased has been uniformly very positive - the only negatives were from people who had really unrealistic expectations of the install process. I think that you will be happy with your purchase. I have been really pleased with mine.

Yep, the reviews of that system are good and the feedback on 602abcWater is also very good overall. I'm sure this will all be fine.

Same project, new question. I've installed the 602abcwater.com softener and all seems to be working well for a couple of weeks now. I've tested the hardness and we have less than 1 gpg!

We've always had calcium precipitate from ice frozen in trays filled from the kitchen sink. I was expecting the softener to eliminate that, but I'm still seeing calcium particles at the bottom of glasses when the ice melts. I assume there is still residual calcium between the softener and the faucet. Will that eventually flush out? Or, could this indicate that the softener is not removing all of the calcium from the water (and we'll always have some amount of calcium)?

Does softened water work to remove built up calcium inside the pipes and fixtures? I didn't think that was part of the process, but now I wonder if that's where this calcium is coming from.

I've noticed that any time I've cut into any of the copper pipes, there is no obvious contaminant build up, only a layer of green corrosion on the inside of the pipes. I take that to mean that if there is residual build up, it must be in the fixtures themselves.

Depending on what you say about that so far, my last question is (don't laugh), is there an effective way to drain the plumbing system, fill it with vinegar and flush out the calcium that might be in the pipes and fixtures? I'm imagining pumping a few gallons of vinegar into the empty system from one faucet, waiting for it to flow out of all the other faucets, waiting a few hours and flushing everything. Or will that just happen on its own over time?

Glad to hear you are up and running!

Let things flush out on their own. I think you would open a huge can-o-worms if you were to try to flush things with vinegar.

As for your ice maker - first off... is it using the softened water? You can always check by thawing a piece of ice and checking the hardness level.

There is likely built up calcium in the unit. Give it all some time.

I did clean out my coffee pot and my dishwasher with vinegar, as well as my washing machine after I put in my softener. If you want, you can probably pop your ice maker out and clean it up as well.