Those plans are super tiny, I don't know how to post them larger?

I wouldn't worry About the symmetry of no cabinets to the right of the window, but that little sink looks like an orphan out there by itself. I would also encourage you to make that sink large enough to be useful for prep.

I don't think that's enough space in the middle of the bar for 3 stools...you need to be looking at leg room, not just counter edge, and I can't tell if the edge of the counter is 60 or 80".

Where will your hood vent? Through the attic or into the garage? I believe it's against code to vent into the garage.

Also, your work triangle has you crossing the aisle twice with food to prep..once from fridge to sink, and again from sink to range.

Not exactly sure what you mean by and angled L, but has your designer given you the reasons/benefits of making that change?

Thank you for responding! I think she means an upside down L, like a 7 but with a right angle, but then she'd tip it a little (not sure why, I'm assuming space considerations because I want a large island and I was originally nervous about placing the sink there.) I didn't like the idea of all the seams and angles in the triple sided bi-level one. I think I'll find a gorgeous piece of quartz or granite that I don't want all chopped up.

It's difficult because we're doing this via email. The house will be in upstate NY and I'm downstate, so she comes up with ideas which I can never picture in my head until she sends another mockup. The island as pictured is 60" in the middle with 30" and 40" on the sides so yes, 3 people in the center would be tight, but I was only planning to have 4 stools anyway.

I originally thought the stove placement was a waste of space, but she pointed out that there are no ideal storage solutions for corners despite many inventions--plus it would look nice there. There's nowhere else for the fridge and at least in my head, we have a triangle of fridge/sink/stove so I thought that part was okay. But we can still change merrily away. I keep staring at the whole thing and worrying that it's all wrong.

I added the tiny sink so we don't have to go to the main sink to make coffee/fill Nespresso, etc. I have a bunch of coffee paraphernalia and the bev center at the end will have that, a wine/bev fridge beneath and I was thinking a glass front cab above for wine glasses and pretty mugs. I did think about using it also as a prep sink but I doubt I'll take my celery or whatever from the refrigerator and walk over there to chop/wash it anyway.

You will be spending more time prepping than doing dishes (70% or more, compared to 20% or less), so I think you should give yourself a nice prep zone. I'd make the island a rectangle, 60 x 90, and put a prep sink near the fridge.

Move the window toward the range, and put the clean-up sink under it, with the DW on the right, then the beverage center. Glasses can go above the DW and bev center, on an open shelf or in a glass door upper, with dishes in drawers to the left. The trash pull-out is on the island corner, shared by all the zones.

Thank you both so much. I don't know why the island shape has gotten complicated. She mentioned the L after we expanded the kitchen, but before I asked her to dump the bi-level idea. She's had really good ideas so I assumed it would make sense when I saw it. Originally there wouldn't have been room for a really sizable recatangular one, hence the trifold or whatever you'd call it, but a simple rectangle makes so much sense. (But less interesting maybe? No idea.) I like the suggestion of the one cut corner to match the perimeter as well.

I'm so used to having one sink for prep and cleanup (located under the kitchen window) that I was proud of the radical step of putting the large sink in the island and getting to face out, toward the better view, for both of those chores. Would I really use a tiny sink in the island? I just don't know. It would have to be bigger than the one I was picturing as just a water source in order to be useful, I think. I will lie in bed and think about sinks. Thanks very much for your thoughts; this is very helpful indeed.

You know what, it just hit me looking at your drawing, I think the L she means IS a rectangular island. The seating is an L! Then she's going to tip it, I bet, so it's not parallel to the dining table that will be in the space behind it.

Would I really use a tiny sink in the island?

I'd make the prep sink at least 18" wide. What I should have explained in my previous post, is that having a prep zone separate from the clean-up zone will allow a helper to load or unload the DW, or set the table, while you are prepping and/or cooking. By placing the clean-up zone on the L, there is no zone crossing. If you kept the clean-up sink on the island, and the prep sink on the perimeter, you would be crossing through the clean-up zone to access the fridge (and pantry.) And, on the island, if your prep space is shared with clean-up and DW, your prep space would be smaller--NKBA recommends a minimum of 36" next to a sink, but 42"-48" would be better.

Some kitchens don't need prep sinks to be functional, but since you have the space, and you are planning on having a second sink anyway, a prep sink on the island will see more use than the tiny sink on the end of the perimeter run. (Unless you drink a lot and never cook, lol.) Another factor--if you have an area dedicated to prep, you won't need to clear out unwashed, or draining/drying dishes from the space before you start prepping. Dish mess on the perimeter is also less prominent, therefore less visible, than if clean-up is on the island.

If you were planning to use the long perimeter counter for baking or buffet serving, you can return the clean-up sink to counter space by using a positive reveal and having a cutting board made to fit the sink opening.

GW discussion--prep sink regrets?

GW discussion--Ice, water, stone, fire.

GW discussion--prep sink size

GW discussion--Is a prep sink always necessary?

I would consider running a rectangle island so the long side faces the long side of the kitchen but keep the sink on the side that mama goose shows. Your seating would be on the outside of the L. I do not see anything in your layout that necessitates angling the L; I think that would bug me if another angle did not mimic the angle of the perimeter.

I don't see any benefit at all the angling a rectangular island. It will look like somebody tried too hard to make things interesting instead of functional . I didn't mind the shape of the island with 2 45s, but Mamas placement of a rectangular island makes most sense. It will put you facing your lake view while your prep, and give you enough room to move around.

I'm realizing that Mama Goose's drawing is encroaching on my "dining room" space. The original drawing gives me 119 inches for a table and chairs with a sliding glass door behind it to the covered porch/deck. I need to leave enough space so that if people are sitting at the table and someone wants to use that door, they have enough room to walk behind the chairs. My present dining room table is 7 X 3 so it's skinny, but I don't know how standard that is and I'm thinking it might be too tight if the kitchen perimeter comes out another foot. It may be tight already.

If that drawing will work, could I flip the dishwasher and sink? Sink would then be closer to bev center, and I'm left handed so the dishwasher would be more natural for me. It would be a lot handier to load and unload on that side. Right now my dishwasher is on my right, and I handle everything with my left hand.

The DW is on that side to keep it out of the work zone. Generally the consensus here is that whether you're left/right-handed, you can adjust to whichever side the DW is on, and that's consistent with my experience in different kitchens I've worked in.

I like mama goose's plan, but if it were me I would put the range on the fridge wall and use a super susan in the corner. Corner range is OK, but I think it takes up a lot of room, and I'd rather have the counter and storage. It would put the range closer to the prep sink and give you some space to scooch the clean-up area back out of the dining room too.

Speaking from personal experience, I would rather gouge my eyeballs out with hot pokers before having a caddywhompus, multi level island again.

It looks to me like that pantry has some wasted space. Have you considered taking a few feet from the pantry area and making a beverage station area, or at least a reach in pantry on the kitchen side. Like this?

That's true, caligirl, also lefties spend their whole lives doing thing awkwardly, and we're used to it. But ideally...

Nightowl, I'm trying to make a bev center at the end of the perimeter toward the dining room so people can easily help themselves to coffee and wine. That's one reason I wanted to flip the DW/sink from Mama Goose's drawing. You'd move it to the other side of the kitchen? I thought the walk in pantry by the fridge was great--plus I have more storage in the butler pantry-ish area at the garage entrance (W/D, although drawn there, will actually be in the laundry room in the corner--which will also have storage.)

re pantry - if it were a little larger, you could have shelving on each side and the end. As it looks, there is just room for shelving on the kitchen side of the pantry and the end. With a pretty large area of open space in the middle. I would at least explore if putting a 12-18 inch reach in inside the kitchen and then adjust the wall of the pantry accordingly, the usable pantry space would be essentially the same with the added bonus of additional storage for often used kitchen needs.

re island - do you really need seating for 5 at the island - considering the dining table is just steps away. I am a fan of island seating, but perhaps 2-3 is plenty for you. Just enough to sit and chat whilst cooking or having coffee. In my experience with guests, most stand around the island and circulate. If you can reduce seating and square up the island, you could put a few storage drawers there. Between your pantry and additional island storage, you perhaps could do away with the corner susan you are considering and add a storage space in the garage in the wasted space there. .... just a thought. a 2 car garage fills up quickly in my world.

The only thing encroaching on your dining space is the beverage center, which I made 36" wide. Make it 24" wide, or move everything another foot toward the corner range, and it's the same size as your original plan.

Thank you, Mama Goose, thanks everyone... every time I read an idea, I like it.

I don't need seating for five or more, but definitely for 4. If I were to keep the main sink/dw in the island, I would want it to be large so I'd have a nice expanse of island undisturbed by the sink. If I move that sink to the window, the island could be smaller.

Nightowl, coincidentally enough I have a new scribble for you that moves the bev center and takes from the pantry, but it makes a really nice sized beverage center, 5.5 feet. That would be great! BUT, smaller pantry. She changed the island shape to a single level rectangle as I had asked and I'm pretty sure she's just designating "seating" in general by showing all those chairs, I wouldn't have so many. However, she puts the little sink in the new bev center, which would be oh-so-handy for coffee, but it takes away prep function.

If keep the new bev center, move the main sink to the window and put the prep sink in the island as previously discussed, then I won't have a sink right there for coffee.. I realize that's not a tragedy, but it was my real motivation to have a second sink in the first place.

Thoughts?

I like that orientation for the island better, but I thought you wanted the lake view while prepping. Could you clarify where you want the clean-up sink in this plan?

I'm sorry, that's because I'm dithering around like a complete lunatic. I do want the lake view. If I put the little sink in the newly moved but larger bev center, to have that view I'll have to put the big sink in the island and use it for clean up and prep, which means a mess on the island pretty much all the time.

When I look at it that way, having water right by coffee seems less important, doesn't it?

So that takes me back to your drawing of the outside wall but without the bev center at the end.

I would put the clean-up sink and dishwasher in the perimeter and cleanup sink on the side by the refrigerator (as mama goose drew it but keep island shape/orientation as shown in the last hand-drawn plan). It's not that far to the beverage center; do people ever use a pot filler for making coffee; does the beverage center have to have a sink...just asking since I am not a coffee drinker.

I actually asked if I could have a faucet that just came out of the wall. I thought it was pure genius. She politely told me that my idea of a spigot was nice, but that it has proven disastrous for people who've tried it without a sink/drain underneath because of overfills, etc. Rats! But she's right, some kid would turn it on and not be able to get it off.

I'm pretty sure we can struggle through life happily enough without a sink in the beverage center. :-)

That makes total sense. I really like the location of the beverage center where it is in the last plan.

I hate to open a can of worms, but with the much larger beverage center backing the pantry, I think it's feasible to have bar sink there, or at least a wall spigot and tray drain. Is plumbing for a drain in that spot an issue? Is it the expense, or is it the idea of having three sinks in a kitchen, when one is the standard for most of the country? (One is the standard for most of the people I know.)

Do you have frequent guests, or more than one cook/helper in the family? If yes to either, then having a clean-up sink and a prep sink makes sense, and will give you a more functional kitchen. So, here's something to consider--leave the window where I moved it, which provides space for dish storage to the right of the clean-up sink and DW. Leave the prep sink on the far end of the island, so that the cook can scoop prepped items off the end closer to the range. Leave the trash pull-out on that end, since it's convenient to all the zones.

Move the fridge closer to the corner, with a side pantry, 15-18" deep, to help make up for pantry space lost to the beverage center, and to get the fridge a little closer to the prep area. The side cabinet could instead store brooms and cleaning supplies.

Include a bar sink and UC fridge in the beverage center. If a bar sink in that location is out of the question, you could put in a water cooler. ;)

Counter top hot/cold dispenser on Amazon/3 or 5 gallon/$99.99.

You've sold me on the prep sink, for sure, and I'm sure I'll be happy every day about that. Yes, people will be around a lot. Lots of a large extended family, kids, dogs, and the lake location will make it a gathering spot also.

But a third seems just... excessive, especially when I've only ever had one! I don't know about plumbing issues but surely everything I add will add up. Expense is always a concern because there's frighteningly expensive stuff coming... beams, stone, hardwood, fireplaces, stain grade trim and doors. My instinct (hahaha! such as it is!) is to put the prep sink on the other end of the island, right next to the trash. It seems awkward on the other end?

We'll definitely put an UC fridge in the bev center and I think a countertop water dispenser would be a good compromise. Moving the big fridge over is a great idea - my only concern is people burrowing around in it, standing there staring inside for long moments hoping food will magically appear, and being in my way.

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to think about all this with me.

This is getting fun! Crowd sourcing on caffeine. I strongly advise a sink at the beverage area. Our espresso machine is on the other side of our kitchen and going back and forth with a water pitcher or to rinse something out gets old... Consider getting a sink that will allow for a pull out trash below at the beverage area and the clean up sink.

Oh no, not you too! LOL.

Well, I just looked them up online and it turns out little sinks can be super inexpensive if you get a reasonable faucet. It's the plumbing that would drive up the price, no idea how much that is.

You're outnumbered!

I put the prep sink on that end because that puts the prep space nearer the range, and the trash pull-out should be under the prep space--it's nice to be able to pull it out and sweep debris directly into the can. You'll spend more time chopping/slicing/dicing than you will rinsing at the sink, but if you don't feel that would be comfortable, you can prep to the left, and carry prepped items another step or two to the range.

Oh! I understand! Yup yup, that makes sense.

Wait til I get to cabinet selection. Y'all are going to want to come over and punch me.