Not a monster actually, there are many roses that get bigger. Haven't heard of the reverting before, what, specifically do references to the phenomenon seem to be describing?

New Dawn requires deadheading to rebloom.

My New Dawn only blooms once in the spring and I dead head after the first flush and nothing the rest of the year., no more blooms at all. It has been in the ground over 10 years and gets plenty of son and I fertilize it like all my other roses. I am removing it this year and planting something else that re-blooms.

I think many of these once-bloomers were Dr. Van Fleet to start. I have two New Dawns planted in the 1930s which rebloom reliably when dead-headed as do the cuttings I've grown from them.

Yes, there are many "New Dawns" that are actually Dr VF, either because they reverted or were sold mislabeled. I don't know if ND is actually more prone to reversion than other roses, or if it just a case that over the years so many of them have been planted that more reversions have been noticed. For many years it was the "world's favorite climbing rose".

Regardless of what you were sold or have, if it is not remontant (at least sparingly) then it isn't ND, it's Dr VF. I have one of each; one given to me by my aunt from her original 1940's plant (remontant), and one sold to me as just 10 years ago as ND, which does NOT re-bloom, no matter what I do to it. It's also somewhat the larger plant.

I'm sure the number of non-remontant NDs out there is at least partly the fault of nurseries not being diligent. If all nurseries would simply observe their mother plant from which they take cuttings, this could be solved. If they never get a second flush, toss that plant (or re-label it Dr VF). If their plant is remontant, then they should only propagate from wood that has been observed to re-bloom.

Of course, this doesn't stop ND from having a cane or two revert in your garden. Over time, as you prune out old canes that are true ND, you can inadvertently leave only Dr VF behind. I watch every new cane my true ND throws, and so far haven't found a reversion. But I consider the chance of it reverting a case of "when", not "if", so I'll keep my eyes open.

(eagle eye) John

I don't know about ND being a monster, but my 'Awakening', ND sport, is a rapidly growing thorny monster which I had to move to the back property line where it shares guard duties with "Arcata Pink Globe" and 'Wedding Day'.

>many of these once-bloomers were 'Dr. W. Van Fleet' to start<

Without additional information my money is on this.

The different kinds of tree-climbing Ramblers in particular all grade up to 100 ft. wide 'Kiftsgate'.

And of course there is Rosa banksiae.

https://tjsgarden.com/2012/06/17/tombstone-rose-bush-garden-largest/tombstone-rose-bush-blooms/

I have 9 New Dawn, 3 White Dawn. Out of these 12, 3 New Dawn are 7-8 years old, 2 of the 3 old New Dawn are once bloomers. The other 6 New Dawn and 3 White Dawn (3 gal) I bought them at a local nurseries last year, when they were marked down from $29.99 to $9.99, I took them all. I think they all repeated last years, deadheading is the key for repeating, others already mentioned it.

I love this New Dawn youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkQyt4QxtuM

I could watch that video all day!

I have both New Dawn and Dr van Fleet. New Dawn seems to have petals that are smaller and not as tight. Dr. van Fleet is just a wee bit deeper pink, and in my garden, his flowers were larger. I found that both climbers need good soil and fertilizer to do really well. New Dawn should be pruned back and fertilized after blooming to get a good second flush.

Dr Van Fleet

Excellent thread, Conor! A fascinating subject...

wow, amazing! Thank you all for your thoughts & info, I think we've got a pretty clear idea of what's going on when a rose sold as "new dawn" doesn't respond to pruning with rebloom. (what a terrific word 'remontant' is, @fig_insanity)

As for nurseries, my research so far has resulted in this:

White Flower Farm -- lots of happy reviewers, a few specifying lack of re-bloom (unsure if they are pruning). CT

Jackson & Perkins -- no reviews from 1+ year owners, no comment on re-bloom in reviews (positive or negative). This nursery is in Southern California, I'm not sure how a plant grown in that climate would react to being plopped down in a northern winter climate. CA--LA

Heirloom Roses -- lots of comments about vigor, few reports on repeat bloom; one report of non-repeat bloom on multiple plants. OR

I'm leaning toward a local nursery, Sylvan Nursery, in Westport MA, because they've been so reliable and I know they'll tell me if they've witnessed repeat bloom on the plants.

Alternately, since this is a rose with an expired patent, I'd love to buy some cuttings of your happy, remontant roses!

I've grown this rose 3 times and not once did it repeat. To be honest I've got so fed up with it I never want to see it again... well, not in my garden. I tried and tried - failed big time...

I got the same result from each of the plantings, one good flush and lots of growth to 20 foot or so. I always deadheaded, but to no avail... I even bought one of the roses in September when it was flowering in its pot, at the garden centre, which I felt assured would be the repeating version, yet in my garden it did not do so...

I bought one from the late Peter Beales, the same thing happened. I met Mr Beales a couple of years before he passed and told him about it.. He felt sure his stock was the repeating version and consistent, but offered to replace what I had. I got a different rose instead... maybe I should have kept them longer, they were all gone after 3 seasons as I lost patience... I've given up with it now I'm afraid...

Jackson Perkins just had a St Patrick's Day sale last Friday, a bare root New Dawn was for $9.98 each. They will have more sales later, the end of summer sale is the best.

P.S. Upon re-reading my old thread, I noticed totoro's came from Heirloom. Perhaps we'll get an update on its performance.

My goodness I remembered wrong. I went back to my local nursery twice to buy those New Dawn! I am getting old!!

Yes: new specimens grown for only a few years may have not had enough time to build up older wood that flowers again later, if that is how this one works. And, of course it seems if anyone is pruning it as a Rambler, with canes that have flowered being removed on a frequent basis that could produce the same outcome indefinitely.

Here's how I prune my ND, excerpted from my comment on vaporvacs thread last year:

"By the way, my ND blooms on old and new wood, but especially well on new
laterals FROM old wood. I lightly prune cane tips when I deadhead the
first flush, and she responds by producing more laterals, which bloom
about six weeks later."

If I'm diligent (one out of three years? lol), I can get a Summer and Autumn flush in addition to the main Spring flush. Now, these are nothing like the main flush, mind you.

I've had mine too long to remember if it took a few years to start repeating, but my guess is that age does figure into its ability to re-bloom consistently.

This will be the third year of my ND and I will see how it does this year. I fell in love with the pics of ND but I wasn't impressed with it in my garden. Of course to be fair, you won't really see the potential in a rose until it matures. In my garden, the flowers is mostly white. I originally thought it was White Dawn, as summersrhythm has suggested in another post, but mine does have a blush of pink when it first opened but quickly turns to white. Mine repeats very well but unfortunately the flowers drop very quickly as well, even worst than D.A.'s Heritage. So far it hasn't been a monster but those thorns are quite monstrous.

The 6 New Dawn and 3 White Dawn I just planted last year repeated for me, they were in 3 gal pots when I purchased them. 3 of them are facing north, rest of them are climbing on tree trunks. None of them are in full sun.

I have Awakening - a rooted cutting from an old rose in our garden which, from its location (inside of a Japanese quince bush in a very old part of our garden) I believe was planted at the latest in the 1930s. It has survived, and is still alive and produces (the old plant) one or two blooms a Spring, from inside the darkness of the quince bush. It is more double than New Dawn, and the blooms are quartered. My new plant of it is only 2 years, old but is definitely remontant. I gave another rooted cutting to my SIL years ago. Her plant is maybe 10 years old, and is sprawling around - it would climb if it had something to climb on. I read somewhere that someone thinks A is actually the first remontant sport of Dr. Van Vleet, which then sported to ND. Does anyone have any thoughts about that?

Here is a pic of my SIL's A. Hers repeat blooms all summer (zone 9, hot dry summers in No Calif.)

Jackie

Jackie, HMF has 'Awakening' being discovered in Czechoslovakia in 1935 by Jan Baum. I wonder how it got to CA in the 1930s? Perhaps there was a Czech émigré family who brought a piece with them. ( I don't doubt your ID at all, and your pix look exactly like what I have.) The official story has 'Awakening' being brought to England in the 1990s, I think. Your rose in the quince bush must surely be older than that. Might you perhaps be willing to post on HMF about your plant?

Sorry I cannot be much help on ND because have Awakening from Heirloom not ND. It repeated all summer into fall last year for me in its 2nd year despite being in a lot of shade. It is already over 15 ft wide.

Sorry totoro. That's what I get for skimming through posts. Still, I've always read that Awakening has the same growth habit as ND, so perhaps that extends to rebloom. I seriously considered getting Awakening this year, but may wait. Please feel free to post pics of it this season.

vaporvac, Joy Creek has Awakening for $12.50, I ordered 2 for this spring. I bought a plug size band 3 years ago, after 3 years now it's a good size band. I am hoping Joy Creek's bands are bigger bands. :-)

http://www.joycreek.com/Rosa-Awakening-320-101.htm

I had ND at my old place(7b), planted in full sun along a fence. It rebloomed with lackadaisical deadheaded from me but had black spot out the wazoo. Made me nuts.

It's seems I'm bound determined to get something from Joy Cree. 1st rose de Rescht, now Awakening! I've pulled up their website and will have a look. Thank you.

You're welcome. The roses are listed under "R". Happy shopping! :-)

Lyla, that really surprises me that your ND had so much blackspot. It's one of my very healthiest roses. I never spray it. Evidently we deal with different strains of black spot. Where were you growing your ND?

fig, I was thinking the same thing. I get some BS on her late in the season, but nothing serious and never during the Summer.

mcnastarana, I can think of a few ways our garden might have Awakening planted in the 1930s. First, ND was a sensation when it was introduced in 1930. The local nursery in our town where my DH's ancestors got their roses is still going - it is the oldest continuously operating nursery in CA. Most of the old old rose I have identified in our garden were, when they were first bought and planted by my DH's ancestors, the hottest new roses. That nursery got all of the new exciting roses quite promptly. So, perhaps ND was purchased in the 1930s, planted, and by 80+ years later had sported to Awakening. A is said to be a sport of ND, so why not? The plant was certainly stressed, having the original place it was planted taken over by the huge quince bush. The original plant is still there, trying to climb up the quince bush and old ornamental crab apple tree nearby.

Another thought is that perhaps the first sport of Dr. Van Fleet which was called ND WAS really A (I know I read that somewhere), which shortly thereafter sported again to what we now know as ND, and A was superseded in commerce by the new sport, as has happened to so many roses. Under that scenario, A remained itself in Czechoslovakia, to be found later.

Another thought - accd to HMF, Awakening was "collected" in Czechoslovakia in 1988. Then it was re-named from its original 1935 name of Probuzeni to Awakening, and distributed by Beales starting in 1990. This implies to me that it was out or almost out of commerce for a long time. However, that does not mean that shortly after it was discovered in 1935 and named Probuzeni it could not have made it to this country, and to our local nursery. Calif nurseries in that period imported ALL of the latest roses, and since ND was such a sensation, I think that a more double version of it would have been too, if only briefly.

Of course the above is just me having fun speculating - it would be great to know what really happened! I love rose mysteries, and don't really care if they get solved or not. The good news of course is that DVF, ND, and A are all still in commerce.

Jackie

In my area I see an occasional 'Dr W Van Fleet' here and there with significant leaf fungus while most others encountered do not have much, if any. I've also seen rust in one little corner of an extensive patch of native roses, haven't been back to see if it later spread through the whole thing. A susceptible seedling among others, or a newly arrived, more virulent strain just getting started? With the whole (suckering) colony actually being a single clone?

Fig - Zone 7b NC/SC border she was along my fence in full sun. About fifteen feet from all my other roses none of which had BS. I bought her as a well established 3 gallon on a giant trellis from a reliable nursery here in town. It may have been because she was so close to "The Nothing" aka-my neighbors jungle of weeds and vines that tried to overtake my yard every minute of every day. Or it could have been because the soil there was more clay and not as good as the soil in the raised beds sitting on top of a foot of old mulch turned black gold soil, I do not know. She got it terribly bad the first year, and even after painstakingly collecting all the leaves and spraying and babying it she got it again the next year.