As a general rule of thumb, I never amend the soil. All of my roses grow in heavy, red clay, and they always perform wonderfully. Soil amendment is a myth, and can actually lead to early demise of the plant.

I respectfully, disagree Logan. I have solid clay soil and that is what got me into roses to begin; nothing else would grow. Although my roses did grow and bloom, they are so much happier with amended soil. The problem with clay is that it is so compact, there is not much oxygen available to the plants roots. Also, it retains water and then dries out to concrete. Maybe your clay is not as hard, but mine is very difficult to dig into. I can imagine it makes it difficult for the rose's roots to get through!

Eventually the roots will all encircle each other because they want to stay in the amended soil, which will end up strangling the plant.

I suppose if you only amended the planting hole. But then the rose could drown in heavy rain as the clay doesn't drain. One needs to amend the whole bed and continue to focus on soil improvement. It can take several years and is never really over as the soul needs constant nurishment as do(es) the plant (s)

I also have to disagree with Logan. Sure, if you are digging out 'clay pots' in your soil and filling them with amendments you might get that effect. But most people who amend do it all the time with compost and other amendments. And most roses can penetrate the clay surrounding them even if the clay is not amended. That being said, clay is good because it retains moisture. But if you have any kind of drainage problem, the clay is going to stay wet and lack oxygen and the roses or anything else will not thrive.

Some years ago I was getting too old to do traditional amending so I started lasagna gardening. This worked well for me and I found an interesting benefit: I suppose the worms were working overtime but over a number of years the friable soil increased in depth, as I added mulch every year by the end of the year the mulch decomposed so the bed wasn't getting higher but it did get deeper.

From that I deduce that 'clay pots' aren't permanent and that gradually the friable area will increase over the years just as it did in my lasagna gardens.

If your clay soil is so bad that you can't grow roses, raised beds may be the way to go. Less work and higher level of success.

My point is that the raised beds amended the clay from above with the help of my worms.

I have raised beds. If you don't keep adding garden soil it turns to a gray-ish dusty soil that nothing will grow in. I suppose if you do add mulch, compost, and garden soil it does successfully amend the soil, which may not be harmful because it is gradual rather than sudden.

My understanding is that there's a big difference between top dressing and amending the planting holes.

In the Master Gardening program, based on research they say, you should not amend the soil since the plants tend not to want to reach beyond the amended soil. I garden in quite clay soil and tend not to amend the soil much when planting roses. I do top dress with mulch and other organic material though. My soil is pretty good though. I would think you would need to amend if your soil is terrible.

I definitely DON"T amend soil when planting trees. Amending the soil, planting too deeply and improper staking are the most common reasons why trees eventually fail, I understand. Improper watering also. Improper pruning are other reasons trees fail. Being tortured by idiotic tree trimming companies is another. Don't get me started on that!

I was taught to never amend the soil here but to topdress with yard compost, leaves, mulch etc. regular....

But the thing is soil is different everywhere so I'm guessing the rules may change from area to area...

And rosarians may have different expectations for their roses... having lived in CA, I expect at least 50 blooms per cycle from an established tea. Logan says his roses are performing wonderfully but what are his expectations? I amend beds (clay soil) then continue to top dress with organics annually because I want a high level of performance.

There are times when I wish I had not amended all of my beds. That is what was recommended at the time so thats what I did. All tilled to at least 12" With lots of organics added. What has made the greatest difference in my beds is years of doing as Lucille, Jim and others. Compost, mulch, leaves, coffee, alfalfa, non treated grass clippings and so on. Laid on top for the soil web to work their wonders with. In spring when the soil is moist you can dig 8 inches bare handed. Sometimes I can barely believe how nice it is now.

When I have to transplant a rose. Well, it's not a dumb plant. Most of the roots are with in the first 15" but it sends more than enough roots down into the clay. That rose is not about to die when there is still water to be found in the clay layer. In case someone wonders the roots follow the path made by worms who mine the clay layer.

"Logan says his roses are performing wonderfully but what are his expectations?"

Expectations:

• Generally healthy, and disease free (no black spot or rust, I usually spray with a copper fungicide before bloom)
• Large, yet abundant flowering (I don't expect young roses to have very large blooms, but they should after at least 2 years in the ground)
• Growth. They shouldn't just survive, they should thrive.
• I also dead-head reblooming roses to encourage more flowering, which also shapes the shrub

I don't know about 50 blooms per cycle....... but I've only grown roses (reblooming) for 6 years now. For my once-blooming roses I would expect well over 50 blooms per cycle. Most likely 500+ blooms on my large 'Dr. Huey' and 'Seven Sisters' roses. I rarely pinch buds off, but when I do there are significantly larger flowers. I will try to find some photos.

Well Dr. Huey does love clay, I can attest to that. I still have a few hanging around from roses that died or I dug up.

I have some that I planted intentionally. A basic, easy to care for rose. I also have one that I moved from the front of the house.

Interesting perspectives. I guess I always thought top dressing was amending the soil! From the top! My clay is so solid the tiller wouldn't get through it. I planted many roses directly in it so now I am amending from above. But I also amend the planting holes now as Christopher found, definitely gives them a head start. I use the original clay and add organics to it along with gypsum to soften it a bit. Otherwise it ends up having no dranage. I like bands because they are smaller, so one can fit more in a small space (I'm in a cold zone 4 so they don't tend to get very big anyway) and it is really difficult to dig deep enough holes to accommodate bare root roots or potted plants!

The roses (and perennials) planted in a previous veggie garden where I totally removed the clay 2' really are growing a lot better then the rest of my flower bed where planted directly in the clay, with amendments from above.

Does anyone use cover crops?

I wonder if we each have different personal definitions of the word "amend." For example... technically isn't mulch an amendment? I personally consider it as one. How about organic matter? How about cover crops? How about adding worms? Aren't they all technically amendments? Maybe not to some. But maybe they are to others. Personally, I consider anything you do to the soil "amending" (good or bad).

I work the soil with just mulch usually. But I have also done the lasagne method and sheet mulched and it worked great.

Recently, I also have added organic material (kitchen waste basically) in areas I haven't planted yet, but plan to, in order to attract and feed the native worms. I also am experimenting with a "cover crop" of alfalfa in an area I'm going to plant in (but haven't yet).

I also break up my clay with a pitchfork every now and then in areas that seem to need it. The mulch on top falls into the cracks and it fluffs it up a bit.

I consider all of that amending. But I don't add gypsum or other typical "amendments" so maybe my way isn't considered amending the soil to some.

I liked the basics of the post Henry posted. Test the soil. Add organic material. Try raised beds. Mulch. Try a cover crop. Simple and basic. I like it.

Soil amendment, in its most basic, most common method (adding non-native soil into the planting hole) causes the early demise of many plants. I have seen many trees and shrubs succumb to improper planting here on the forums.

The situation described above is not the same as is typically done with roses grown in beds. Yes, if you're planting a specimen tree or non-rose shrub -- or a line of hedges -- you'll do better to just pop them in the hole and fill with native soil. But that's because those trees and shrubs are typically "set it and forget it" plants. They do not receive the same "high culture" typically provided for roses -- such as maintaining mulch, frequent fertilization, continued application of nutrient-rich organic matter, irrigation, etc. -- which is done to encourage blooming throughout the growing season. When growing roses in beds with the "high culture" I described, the native soil will be improving faster than would be typically found among the roots of trees and non-rose shrubs. That "amended soil in the planting hole" for roses is just a preview of what the rest of the bed will gradually become, thus the ills of dramatically different soil between the planting hole and the rest of the ground isn't a long-term worry.

:-)

~Christopher

I may do an experiment. When the 'Knock Out' roses go on sale at walmart, I will buy a few. I will plant some directly into the native soil, and amend the planting hole with the others.

That would be interesting, but it doesn't really relate to my roses here. Those 'Knock Out' roses will (likely) be on 'Dr. Huey' rootstock -- which can easily battle heavy clay -- and much more mature than the own-root bands I buy. I should have reiterated that in my last post, though I did mention it in the one before that. The gist of it was that I've found here that own-root bands will just sit there if planted directly into the native soil. The best results I've had came from those planted in 2gal containers in my "magic mix", set out in full sun and kept watered through the growing season, and planted out in late Summer or early Autumn.

I did try planting some directly into holes a bit larger than 2gal containers, filled the holes with my "magic mix", topped with the removed clay, and covered that with mulch. Growth was much better than bands planted directly into clay, but not quite as good as those potted up for a while first. I think it comes down to the band-sized roses simply not having enough reserves to generate roots that can get through heavy clay. And having a smaller root zone, they are more prone to drying out, further knocking them back. Providing what's essentially a "subterranean pot filled with potting mix" gives them the head-start needed to be strong enough to push through the clay.

But, yes, if you're getting 'Knock-Out' roses and intend to treat them as the "set-it-and-forget-it landscape shrubs" as they're marketed, you'll likely see less benefit. Especially so since you're buying them budded onto 'Dr. Huey' and further along in growth than are my roses, which typically come as rooted cuttings in pots ranging from 3" X 3" X 6" to (at most) 1gal containers.

:-)

~Christopher

For me amendment means digging the dirt out. Then mixing compost and composted cow manure to it. And back it goes into the hole.

I also think we need to clarify what 'clay soil' is. Good soil will have about 30% clay. But 100% clay will have poor drainage and not allow absorption of nutrients because of the denseness of the soil and the lack of oxygen. I can tell you that in my yard the spots that have 100% clay plants do not do well. What they do is spread out their roots very shallow to get to where the 'good soil' is. If you want any high performing type flowering plant or annuals, you have to amend. Still, I'd rather have clay soil than sand. I also do mix about 1/2 clay back in with the amended soil.

Please see our discussion on this topic on the California gardening forum too.

Amending the soil with organic matter can be tricky. I only use it on top now and not in the planting hole.

I think this discussion goes back and forth because some people quote references about trees and landscape shrubs doing poorly when amending the soil in their planting holes. Then others chime in that where they garden and with their soil, not amending leads to roses lingering or dying, while others say that planting directly is the only way to go. So keep some things in mind:

1) What is best for trees and landscape shrubs being planted in "set it and forget it" sites does not apply to planting repeat-flowering roses within a bed of other plants receiving "high culture" treatment of frequent fertilization, irrigation, mulching, etc. People don't generally aim to turn the soil around the bases of trees and landscape shrubs into dark, crumbly, dig-with-your-fingers garden soil, but many do want this around their roses.

2) This thread is about "improving clay soil", so if you garden where the soil is rocky or sandy, what you do and don't do aren't necessarily applicable. When you have soil with larger particle sizes, organic matter with smaller particle sizes will more easily filter down after every rain. With clay, you have to either dig in organic matter yourself, or create a bed with conditions favorable to earthworms so they can do it for you, slowly, over time.

3) How much rain/snow falls where you garden will also affect what you're doing to your garden soil. Areas with high rainfall will see organic matter disappear much more quickly than very dry areas. I've never been away from the east coast, so gardening where we get about 4-6" of rain every month through the year is all I know.

4) How you get your roses will affect how you treat them, and outcomes. Roses purchased as 3+ year old bare-root budded plants will not respond the same in their first year as will own-root band-sized roses. When I gardened in clay on Long Island, budded roses were the only ones I knew, and so into the unamended ground they went -- and they did fine. Trying that in NJ clay with bands just leads to disappointment.

There are several other considerations all related to "this is what I do here" that make our experiences differ. So please preface your "this is what I do here" suggestions with identifying your conditions. And please realize that there aren't many things which should be followed universally with all climates, soil types, etc.

:-)

~Christopher

I agree with Christopher. In any of our Consulting Rosarian classes on soil, it is recommended to strive for a combination of sand/clay and silt which makes up loam. I would never plant a rose in 100% clay, not the clay I have at least. I do have some spots in my yard that actually have dirt, and I rarely amend there, beyond adding organic fertilizers and mulch. I also have spots that are much more sandy, and again, there is amending, but it's more to add organic material and less to loosen up the soil, which is what I do with clay. I do some when I plant, but as I said, I add back in a lot of native soil, clay, whatever is there. That's just to give the plant a head start. Usually I have a root ball from either a potted plant or a transplant. With bare roots, if I haven't potted them up prior to planting, I usually add amendments, garden soil, bone meal, etc. I've also been using something called permatill, which is expanded shale and it little rocks that will aid in breaking up the clay soil so water and organic materials can penetrate. This takes the place of using a soil conditioner, which would do the same thing, but would break down eventually because it's organic. The permatill is not organic and will not break down, hence the name permatill. I also have beds that had a lot of gravel in them from construction in my yard. I have tried to remove what I could, but some of it I use to my advantage, same as permatill.

What I look for is how the rose roots look. I've sort of soured on Dr. Huey, because while it puts out nice long anchor roots, I don't think it likes acidic soil that much and it doesn't allow for many feeder roots. I find own root, fortuniana and multiflora put out many more feeder roots. The organic materials I use encourage thin network of very fine roots. These would not survive in clay.

I am in San Diego, CA. My soil is clay. Even I ammended my rose beds over the years, the drainage is not great. I dont have space for making compost. So would it be OK to start mixing-in cut up vegetables trimmings and other organic ( lemons, coffee grounds, etc) trimmings with the dirt throughout the rose bed that is not raised?? It's not composted. Is it a good idea? And will all those trimmings compost in place, as long as I mix it up with the dirt?

Thanks

Sometimes I do it... but only with things that I think animals (squirrels, raccoons, dogs, etc.) won't be interested in. Even then I'm wrong sometimes! Coffee grounds and most green veggies seem safe. Some don't recommend it though. I don't think it really helps drainage though. The hard work of breaking up the soil every now and then with a pitchfork (and using mulch) is the best inexpensive solution I have found for that personally.

II agree with Cori Ann. Except for the coffee grounds, I wouldn't put veggie scraps directly on the rose beds. You can get a little compost barrel and put them in there. To break up the clay get some soil conditioner (usually very fine mulch) or other organic material to help break up the clay.

Thank you so much. I do use coffee grounds and tea bags a lot just to give some nutrients to my roses.

Would greatly appreciate your advice on mulch -- which one you recommend? Considering I will be buying at Home Depot. There are tons of different opinions, it's quite confusing.

How large of a space are you mulching? I like to put down a pretty thick amount, 4-6 inches... So I have tried to use wood chips from the guys trimming my own trees as much as I could in the past since it saves money. But I also supplement with bags like the ones at Home Depot. Are you having any trees trimmed soon? If so... Can you ask them to chip the trimmings for you?

Personally, I don't like colored mulch. I want it as natural as possible so when it breaks down it's all good for the soil, but thats just me. A lot of people like the black mulch in my area. I think it's just silly, but my husband likes it. I have won that debate so far.

I have used mulch or groundcover bark and both seem to work fine in my yard, but that's usually mixed in with a lot of other wood chips and leaves from my own trees too. I would just go with what your budget allows... but don't spend a lot on mulch. That's just me though!

"if you're getting 'Knock-Out' roses and intend to treat them as the "set-it-and-forget-it landscape shrubs" as they're marketed, you'll likely see less benefit. "

Very few plants are "set it and forget it" for me. I deadhead and pinch buds (for larger flowers) on my knock outs, as well as spray. Almost any roses I plant end up with rust and/or black spot. Knock outs seem to be pretty rust resistant, but still get mild cases of black spot. Even 'Dr. Huey' exhibits these problems (I have two of them, know they're common but I still love the flowers).

"I would just go with what your budget allows... but don't spend a lot on mulch. "

Agreed.

Logan- have you tried any of newer kordes roses? Knocks bs horibly here as do many ogrs and Austins, but many of the newer kordes do remarkably well no spray here. Madame Anstett stayed completely clean ( even though she hasn't flowerd) lions fairy tale, poseidon, jolie veranda, and plum perfect have been pretty good as well...

I will look for some of them. I just started growing roses in the past few years, I have mostly basic roses like 'Dr. Huey', Knock Out, and several different ramblers. Looking to add more of the nicer roses this year.