Can you post just a simple sketch of the space you're starting with?

It looks like you're planning 3 desks on the perimeter of the kitchen, is that correct?

I'll try and put together a simple floor plan sketch. The lines on the floor are the original floor plan, but it's changed somewhat. Aisle to island is 3'6. Island itself is 10'2"x3'. Stove shown is 48", but we'll actually go smaller than that.

It's true there are few upper cabinets. This kind of reflects how we already live because of the walk in pantry. That takes a lot of the storage load for staples, non-daily dishes/pots/pans, and kitchen junk. If it's something to be hidden behind a cabinet door, and it isn't used every day, it usually gets hidden in the pantry instead.

My mother gave the same counter space comment. I'm not really sure how much we need though. This is a *lot* more than we have now in our equally large, but awkward kitchen. The island is new and 10' long, and the back wall gives 16' (with the stove and sink subtracting from that). We make do with no more than 8' now, of which 4' is inconvenient and mostly ignored except for piles of mail and a fruit bowl. What should be a normal amount of counter for a kitchen this size?

There is a computer desk is on the right, which is a desk. The lower area that looks like a desk with a bookshelf is a tough space in our kitchen. Right now it's just empty (and there's no island). It used to have a small table, but it was a little tight. I thought about putting a wall oven there, but the oven would then be 15' from the stove, which I thought was a bit far. So for now, I just have a piano there. The kids play piano. An obvious alternative was a pantry, but we already have a large pantry.

And the butcher block isn't a desk, it's actually extra counter. I originally had it filled with a larger back counter, but then I couldn't centre the kitchen properly. The island can't move left or it cuts too close to the stairs down. I would move it left to centre with the windows, but the stairs are fixed. So what I did was change the material on the part of the counter that is off centre. To me it looks more balanced now. The butcher's block mirrors the fridge (they're within a few inches of the same width), and the island centres with the white counter. The butcher's block still *functions* as counter, it just prevents the counter from looking too long on one side. That was my idea for it; I'm open to hearing that it doesn't work and still looks askew.

Thanks for your help. This is all good to hear.

Maybe you should put some kind of storage above the computer desk. More storage. Is the island only 3 feet deep? How deep will the countertop be? How much leg room will you have?

Some changes based on the above discussion. I changed the island so it's two level. So now the lower part is 10' of real counter. And the upper is seating with a 12" overhang (mostly, because it's curved). I don't want the island too wide where it'll cut of the path from the living (left) to family room (right) that goes along the bottom of the island. Instead the efficient path will be through the kitchen, above the island. I hope this leaves enough. The lane between island and counter is 3'6".

Ugh. those measurements don't show at all.

Island is 10' long, low part is 2'2" wide, high part ranges from 1'2" to 1'7" along curve. The counter with sink in it is 6'6" long, a 36" range, 3'4" of counter next, then 3'6" of butcher block.

The diagonals below island show that the lane below the island is about 3'6" wide.

You can see where the pantry is on the right next garage, which has 8' of floor to ceiling open shelves on one side for kitchen stuff. 8' of very narrow ones on the other for mason jars of staples. It used to be stairs outside the house to the basement, but got enveloped by additions over the years. Not much to do with it besides a pantry (and a wine cellar on the bottom half below.)

Whats in the upper right corner? Family room?

I would actually prefer the island one level as well for the same reason. And it looks more modern to me, which is the aesthetic we're going for. If all one level again though, it's better at counter height right?

It would also allow it to be narrower and expand that aisle.

Yes, upper right is family room.

I'd love to play around with this, but the images provided make it challenging.

Have you thought about putting the kitchen in the present family room? As is, the kitchen also serves as a hallway. It is often a more efficient use of space to have the kitchen in a dead-end corner and the dining room acting as a traffic flow area.

Is the red circle an existing powder room?

Is the front door the yellow square or the blue square?

Sorry for multiple posts. Could the former stairwell you're planning as a pantry be a hallway from the foyer to the back of the house?

The red circle is *new* powder room - the existing one is where the butcher's block is. That's why the red wall is marked, it's the stack and there's a washroom above it that stays. The yellow rectangle is the current front door, but it's becoming a window and the blue square is current window, but it's becoming a front door which provides us with a proper entryway.

I think you're looking at the stair beside the red circle when you ask about the former stairwell, but those stairs stay. The pantry is not shown here, but on the right side of the computer desk and tall cabinets in entry. The pantry was originally exterior stairs that entered the basement. They got closed in over the years. The door to it is right on the other side of the top of the computer desk and the pantry runs down the side of the house.

I wouldn't put the kitchen in the family room because that's the part of the reno that I'm most excited about. That room is actually a leaky sunroom right now. We're turning it into a proper room with lots of floor to ceiling glass that opens out on a nice big treed back yard. We have a beautiful back yard, but currently we only have 3 windows facing it. One is very small, one even smaller *and* in the washroom and the other is over the sink. It's a total waste of having a treed yard. The big sliding door in the dining room, enlarged kitchen windows and the proper sunroom is intended to rectify this situation.

I think we're stuck with the kitchen where it is, even if it isn't ideal.

You can do better, but it's difficult to offer specific solutions without an as-is 2d drawing with dimensions.

IMO, that's a terrible location for a new powder room. It looks like you'll be able to see the toilet through the front window.

When I was asking about the former stairwell where you're planning a pantry, I mean the space behind the locker/closets you're planning not the main stair. Did you consider putting the powder in the old stairwell area?

I have an idea to make the kitchen an L and flip the space so the range is on an interior wall and you can have windows all the way across the back behind an island. Again, I can't flesh it out without a good drawing from you.

P.S. When we did a whole house gut renovation I worked on graph paper and my husband worked in SketchUP. There were many frustrating moments his SketchUp brain and my graph paper brain didn't always sync up well. You'll find most floor plan helpers here on GW are going to want a 2D sketch.

I'll get some graph paper and draw it up this weekend. I'm a primarily digital thinker, so I may have to buy a pencil too.

I think my wife and I had discussed the flipped scenario early on. That was the layout of a house we loved when we were shopping. It was twice as large as ours and three times the price, but the kitchen was exactly how you described and was amazing. It was a new build, so came with none of the constraints we have. (The washroom also had floor to ceiling windows!)

I taped the latest layout on the floor so I could walk around it. I'm not unhappy with being *in* this kitchen. But it's definitely too tight to walk around it, especially next the stairs. But I think if I shorten up the island symmetrically, I'll start to abandon the fridge and sink.

I took a jpg image of graph paper pasted into a MS PowerPoint presentation that I then created "standard" size appliances, fixtures, etc., to-scale for and saved the presentation as a "template".

I just copy the template for each Kitchen I work on. It's easy to add walls, windows, appliances, fixtures, etc., and then save individual slides as a jpg and post them here. No, you don't get 3D views, but it's an easy way to do the planning without having to re-draw over and over.

If you do go the paper graph paper route, I suggest creating a "master" of the space and then make copies and work on the copies. You could also cut out standard shapes for appliances, etc., and move them around on the paper.

If you (or anyone else) wants a copy of my template, email me at EverCurious2009 (at) gmail (dot) com.

I think I got it. It wasn't the graph paper, it was the taping that made everything really obvious. Foam might of worked, but our house we're removing walls. With the walls still there, foam doesn't fit.

First I built the kitchen that would work ignoring the windows, stairs and stack. Then I took what I liked and tried to work backwards to tweak it so it would work with our constraints. In the end it's not so different, but I think it addresses a lot.

It has way more storage due to the fridge being integrated (cabinets above) and the wall oven (drawers below range now, and cabinets above oven, plus broom closet beside). Our house has a ton of storage already so this is way above our needs, but it still looks to me to be clean and sleek, which is the look I want. There's also a straight line now to travel from living room to sunroom without the island cluttering your path, just by tightening up a inch or two here and there and moving the opening. And just to be safe, one stool is gone.

It's less symmetric then the unconstrained 'ideal' kitchen, but it doesn't bother me. To my eye, it's still sufficiently balanced. Piano and computer will have to go elsewhere. I decided they were clutter in the kitchen.

Again, you can do better. If you'd like help, please post a 2d drawing.

Sketchup perspectives are neato--and I appreciate your effort--but these images do nothing for making sure you're achieving recommended design dimensions.

Are you still planning the powder room right in front?

I'm going to think about the powder room next. Our original house envelope is double brick, so big changes to that get expensive. The pantry is on the outside of that envelope, so it can't really be tweaked or opened up easily - all those walls are block and supporting and that requires engineering. (I'm also building the pantry as a DIY job, and its 80% done.) Meaning it's cheaper to tweak or shrink the window as opposed to moving the powder room outside the house. Only the tape will tell me...

We did a total gut renovation. I've been where you are. Believe me... tape doesn't give you the answers.

A total gut would make some things easier, but it's just not cost effective for our house. This is an extensive remodel of only the main floor with some focused opening up of the flow. Moving stacks, or moving the HVAC retrofit, major changes to the envelope... those are out.

That puts a quite a few constraints on the design. But on the other hand, we don't *hate* the house as it is; we both *love* this house. 80% of how we want to live, even the weird stuff, works in this house. I consider this project more of a tweaking of the past 80 years of decisions; and what I'm trying to decide is: are the architect's plans with my revisions something that can look good in real life. His 2-d looks fine to me and I consider all the objective goals I started with met: it suits how we want to live in this house and what we want to change. What I don't trust is my opinion of the subjective.

Maybe the original post wasn't clear. We have a designer and I'll take this to her shortly, but I don't like going to her unless I'm 100% convinced that what I bring is done, beyond minor tweaks and finishes. Otherwise it turns into blue-skying unworkable ideas and I end up spending a lot for an interesting conversation, but no measurable progress.

That's actually my question - can this be made beautiful?

Are you only wanting input on finishes then?

The folks here are great with finishes. Another place for "pretty" advice is over on at the Houzz Design Dilemma Form here: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/design-dilemmas-dsbr0-bd~t_28561

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've not looked at other layout threads here on the Kitchen Forum. We are capable of helping design great kitchens with lots of constraints (hvac, stacks,exteriors, load bearing walls.) Yours is not the most challenging puzzle we've seen. The advice here is good and free, your kitchen can be much better, why not post the 2d and your constraints and see what the crew here comes up with?

I'll check out the design dilemma too. Here's a specific question: the range hood is off centre. If I centre it with the island and counter it overlaps with the right hand window (#1). Even if it was smaller so it didn't overlap, there's something that offends me about this placement when you don't just look at the island, but consider the whole room. If on the other hand I centre it between the edges of the windows (#2), well yesterday I hated it, but today I think it looks fine. The last (#3) is where I thought it looked right yesterday, but there's no rhyme or reason to that one, just placed where it look(ed) right. Today I prefer centred between the windows, although only #1 is offensive.

Which do you think looks best?

Another: These are built off 2d that I actually signed off on. It wasn't until I built them in sketchup that I realized something was off. Things were logically placed, and certainly functional from a cooking perspective. You could see the logic on the 2d and how things lined up, but in 3d the appliances looked like they were having a party and the island wasn't invited.

They were that way because I asked for a large window, and large was interpreted as wide and that forced everything to make way. And the island was too big for the room. I reinterpreted it as tall after much effort to re-balance things, then shortened up the island and centred it with the counter. This is my real question: this design is not very symmetric. It has some symmetry, but also much asymmetry. Is it offensively off balance? And if so, what is that strikes you as out of place?

Getting caught up in symmetry is a mistake if you plan to actually prepare food here. I did the same thing two kitchen remodels ago. Don't make the same mistake. There are bigger, functional issues with this layout.

Like what?