There are some very precious hybrids out there and there are some very special people out there that can afford to pay the special prices and will, so there are some other shifty guys out there who pass off plain Janes to ignorant special people with special wants. They do it because they CAN. Free market an all. Japanese and Koreans are really into haworthias. They adored Echeveria agavoides "Ebony" and drove up the price astronomically for awhile. It is still high but the price is settling down some due to growers trying to get into the action. For awhile there it was darn silly. The auctions on Ebay are a fun place to watch the rich paying the rich prices. I doubt they would buy the same plant if it was cheap.

I was thinking about this post for a while and realized maybe it's easier to just show in a single picture with just a few questions:

1. Which costs a few dollars?
2. Which costs 20x more?
3. Which one was harder to 'create'?
4. Which one grows the slowest?
5. Which is easiest to propagate?

I do realize these are not from the same species, but I thought it would be more visually interesting and support my point better. =)

The big question of 'value' is something I ask myself before I purchase any plant. Is this worth what is being charged? Is it worth the space? Do I like the plant enough?

Cool demonstration, Kevin. On the original question...I collect Echeveria, and have just in the last six months or so began buying the higher priced ones from Korea,not the highest:-) but some of the more special ones than I can find here. I stalk Echeveria and Haworthia relentlessly on Ebay If you spend time on there you'll begin to understand the "why" about the highly varied pricing. You'll also see that if you wait, prices of the "new" or rare varieties will comedown as other growers, or US growers begin to have some available. Then there's the topic of tissue culture.....now home kits are available, and I am having a hard time resisting. You tube has good comprehensive info, just search home tissue culture kit. IMO, tissue culture is at the heart of the recent explosion of availability of rare and new succulents.....

Lisa - Two of the above are tissue culture. Three are Japanese hybrids. One was imported directly from Japan. Last one is a domestic hybrid.

Tissue culture doesn't mean easy or fast to grow and the market of those specific hybrids have not all tanked to nothingness. Over time they will, but for many it will still take 10-15 years for a TC seedling to grow to maturity/beautiful plant.

I mean there is a lot of bad but cheap TC plants coming out of Taiwan and China too... all depends what you go for. There is much philosophical discussion about TC, it being ethical to the original hybrid breeder, and how much care goes into mass producing a plant rather than selectively breeding traits.

Not saying I'm in any 'camp' on that subject, but it is a very hot and passionate topic among growers around the world.

Nevertheless, I don't like it when a seller gets all spit-hissy when asked a question. I don't care how nice their plants are.

Kevin, that's an interesting point about TC ethics. It didn't even occur to me that it would be an issue but I can see why it is. It must take a significant amount of time and effort to produce a stable hybrid. But if it is stable, why bother with TC? Do growers use TC only for unstable plants produced through dumb, unrepeatable luck that requires none of the time and effort needed to produce a stable, reproducible hybrid?

Hm.. now I'm wondering whether my STC acquisitions are contributing to the injustice to breeders, if any.

Yeah, I agree Pagan. With sellers, the question really should be "What is in your price range?" and they offer suggestions on what they carry that fits that criteria for collectors.

I have had many discussions with commercial growers and they are faced by a similar dilemma. They want to expand their business and get people more into growing succulents and into the more expensive/interesting varieties, but it is hard to explain and show that these plants are more valuable than the $5-10 ones.

Not just so they can make money (of course that's part of it) but also that they are lovers of succulents themselves and want the hobby to grow further. =)

Pagan - Missed the bottom of your response.

Ethical tissue culture growers should get permission from the original plant owner/hybridizer to TC it. Just like those fancy plants here in USA you are not supposed to propagate. As far as I know, STC does do this.

TC makes reproduction easier and faster. They do it for many stable plants, it just simplifies things because the process gives you a huge amount of clones. It is more expensive than traditional propagation and is a lot more work, so to break even they tend to do it on more valuable plants.

I spent a lot of time studying economics and am very passionate about copyright as I am also an artist, but don't really care to discuss that much online about it honestly. Dealing with infringement cases have been a pain, contracts are rather boring, and I prefer to stay on the creative side of things.

My preference is to focus on learning more and growing better. Selling plants is a lot of hard work and effort. I do not envy professional growers because they do not get the same luxuries that we do with our collections.

I'm so curious about which grower got pissy...was it possibly a language barrier, if the grower was overseas??? Yes, the ethics of tissue culture is another thread, or another board. My experience with echeveria is that some grow incredibly slow, I have a nickel sized pup I got from Korea in September, it was a little over dime sized when I got it. That might help the OP understand why some costs are so high. Some also almost never pup, even if you behead them and many of the less common varieties will not prop from leaves. And even once you finally get enough growth for cuttings, they take months to root, all during that time are vulnerable. And working with microscopic seeds, and slow growth, tissue culture can be a huge improvement to get something to market, or make it viable to market. I don't know much about economics or business, just my opinions based on collecting, propagating and "stalking":) echeveria, and haworthis, which I'm yet to invest in, plants going for thousands on ebay...Check out Youtube, search Korea Echeveria. you'll get lots of results, just hours of slow motion greenhouse panning. Honestly, I can't breathe when I see some of these plants.....

What determines price? It is what anybody would pay for something they want. That said, some use gas to produce variegation that soon grows out of. Some food coloring. Mostly oversees. So far the only dups I have gotten was from a variegated Aloe Wansley which turned all green one year in full sun. It also looks exactly like Alworthia Black Gem which I think is made up. Also goes by Haworthia Black Gem. I used to buy on ebay but mostly buy from places like 'Out of Africa' or 'Bob Smoley's Gardenworld' or 'Miles to Go' which offers cheap ($5) plants and a good variety.

Also wanting a plant is always more exciting than owning a plant. Have to realize that you can't have everything. Do you know what happens to someone who haves everything? They live happily ever after.

The question is more so of why the *same species* are offered at such different prices. I've noticed it multiple times, and unless the sellers aren't honest in their descriptions, they are listed as the same species and even variety. Sometimes it'll be $20 or so different, sometimes $200 different!! The seller who inspired me to make this post responded to me by saying that if I didn't know why the same plants could cost different amounts, it shows "an ignorance of the market". Lol!

Maybe one should ask the guy that sells it for $20 instead of the guy that sells it for $200. I have watched the price of a newly identified agave species drop from $200 to $50.

So in order to qualify for buying from that seller (who inspires a lot of expletives), one has to:

• know the size of haworthia market in continental North America, as well as the world

• know the size of the market for different tiers of specialty haworthias which, for the purposes of this discussion I am labeling "Common", "Not So Common", "Rare", "Ridiculous", "Oh Come on!" and "Possibly Does Not Exist".

• seasonal demand for haworthias in the two hemispheres

• applicable tariffs, phytosanitary requirements and the attendant fees, taxes (if importing or exporting)

• cost of production including marketing, product handling, packaging and shipping

• foreign exchange rate (if importing)

• price elasticity of supply and/or demand for a specific species, hybrid or cultivar in a specific market over a specific period

• insurance

And that's just off the top of my head, while on a break. I'm sure I forgot something, like the airspeed of a laden sparrow.

That seller was an ass.

Okay Gabby, back to your original Q. There are any number of reasons. Some of the following are rehashes of what has already been said, but I don't feel like scrolling repeatedly up and down on my iPad.

1) What the market will bear

Some plants, by virtue of uniqueness and/or popularity, get snapped up so fast that vendors will price the plants high knowing that there will be someone out there with deep pockets who will jump on it. This is very common with online platforms like "flea"bay or nurseries with wealthy clientele.

In the case of eBay vendors, there is the added factor of of "auction fever". Buyers often get carried away bidding which drives the prices up to ridiculous heights.

Then, too, there are some vendors who "prime" the market pump by having more than one account/store. Such vendors may price items much higher in one store than the other. Potential bargain buyers will seeing both prices go for the lower price and assume they're getting a great deal. Then there are those people who, for whatever reason, go for the higher price with the mentality that because it is more expensive it must be better.

And don't dismiss the "laziness" factor. Many online shoppers are to lazy or impatient to shop around.

2) Seed grown vs. meristem (cloned)

With very common, easily grown plants seeds or cuttings are typically the only ways they are produced as tissue culture is simply not worth the trouble or expense. BUT there are plants which are rare due to such things as: odd genetic mutation, low seed production/fertility, lengthy time until they reach maturity, overall slow growth, or a combination of these. Such plants are the usual candidates for meristem cloning.

In this latter case, seed grown plants may be more expensive than cloned. People may be willing to pay more for the genetically unique seed grown plants -- especially if the plants are dioecious (either male or female as opposed to monoecious plants wherein flowers have both male and female parts) and the buyer wishes to breed more plants.

Some plants are chimeras and can neither be grown true from seed (will not look like the parent plant(s) ), nor be cloned reliably if at all via tissue culture due to genetic instability. The only way to get more of said plant is by division. The same can be said of some plants which require some yet to be found mechanism to stimulate tissue cells to form new plants. (Many of the slipper orchids fall in this category.) Also, if said plant is a slow grower, divisions may be few and far between. Such plants can be crazy expensive due to their rarity. Plants which are highly variegated typically fall in this category.

3) Genetic instability

A plant which is genetically unstable may give rise to unique pups or plantlets referred to as "sports" which cannot reliably be reproduced at all. Even buying a division of a sport does not guarantee that one will have that particular clone long term. Genetic instability can lead to that division sporting again or reverting back to the phenotype of a more common or plain ancestor. (Not at all unheard of with African violets or hosta.)

4) Variation within a clone

Even in the case of a tissue cloned plant or division, the can be variations amongst the plants produced. Degree of variegation being one such affected attribute. Individuals displaying more of a particular attribute might be priced higher as a result.

Well said Paul, and all. So I wasn;t clear the OP meant the exact same plant, same hybrid or cultivar vs. species, all which I don;t fully understand how those are used, maybe someone wants to explain. What I do know about how words, any words, plant names, cultivar names, "variegated" etc. is that there are many sellers who, well, I will say outright lie, using a name they know to be wrong, just to ask the higher price. Then there is the case of FATPLANTS SAN DIEGO on ebay....they ask $1,500 for a common 4" succulent, what???? Below is their response regarding this, I was as polite as I could be and still be clear. Just simply asked them if there was something special about their plants to justify the pricing, yada yada:

RESPONSE:::Good
morning, thank you for bringing this to our attention. With new
listings, we upload them at a higher price so that our pricing system
can drop them to the correct price on the next update pattern and we are
not selling the items at a price that is a loss to our company.

If you are interested in the item please add it to your watch list but we are well aware of the pricing on these items.

Thank you again for your concern on our listing and we hope you continue to be such a dedicated eBay member. END RESPONSE:

--

And BTW, I have had excellent service, communication, and after delivery support from ebay sellers in Korea, Rexbike and Zusung.

Exactly my point, Lisa. I really think Gabby caught someone unable to explain why their stuff was more expensive than an identical plant available for less. Their response was to berate a potential buyer for not knowing all of the details I listed above and implying that their buyers should know them too.

I'm sure breeders of all kinds have all sorts of nifty reasons for their pricing and if they can find a buyer for a $200 plant with a fancy name, good on them! I might go for it too, if I wake up on the crazy side of the bed one day. But the germ of the issue is to not go a little nutty on someone for asking why.

Pagan- thank you, I definitely don't feel as bad about it. I love my succulents and try to keep it light and fun, but I have totally caught the collectors fever. I didn't realize how complex this succulent world was!

Paul- great info thank you! Seriously some complex stuff. I haven't even heard of meristem cloning before. So is it okay to ask a seller if their plant is a clone or not?

Gabby, IMO it's always OK to ask a seller anything, especially if the plant is seed grown, pup, TC or otherwise. Many sellers are not growers at all, but brokers, this is especially true on the FB succlent market groups. They're open about it, but do not reveal who their grower/source is, understandably. Usually the growers are overseas, as US growers tend to sell their own stuff. Indonesia, Korea, Japan and Thailand are common source countries. Maybe you knew all this...just fleshing out the conversation.

(Oops, accidently posted early) Above, I meant that US growers wouldn't use a broker, so brokers normally buy from overseas.Google will also who you several US based tissue culture companies who do nothing bu supply TC succulents to succulent growers. These are fairly new, at least I have only begun to see them on the web in the last couple years. The TC info videos on Youtube are pretty informative and cool if you're that geeky. There are also many nurseries who poet there with video of the nursery and processes. I can watch for hours.....

Thank you lisa! Good to know I can ask, and if they get mad they are sour!

That kinda confirms what I have suspected, since a lot of the Facebook sellers seem to get "shipments in".

Where are good online places to buy the more unusual (not found at lowes) succulents from a grower directly?

Ebay is what I have dome lately. Also there is Leaf and Clay, Fairyblooms, and on etsy you can search "rare echeveria". Some of your results from that search will be SO NOT rare:-) but there are some rare-ish ones on there, even from US growers (brokers?)

Buying from overseas is not as expensive as I expected, as many growers use a flat rate for up to 10-12 plants. For me to afford them I bought small plants, mostly on "Buy it Now" instead of auction. Shipping from Korea and England was roughly $30, painful if you only order 2-3 plants. It took some patience and diligence for me to find a moment when one seller had about 10 plants I wanted. Then it felt OK to spend for shipping. Plants came in in very good shape, some lightly rooted, some dry cuttings (Pups), all did well.

The thing I haven't had great results with is buying tiny seedlings from here is CA, via ebay, so still "shipped". Lost about 50%, expensive lesson. Some lasted for months and then crashed, just so tiny and vulnerable. I'll get better at handling seedlings, but will wait until I know I have the time and right space for them. For my climate/winters need indoor space/lights if plants are tiny, or special, Buying seedlings in fall didn't help.

All a long winded way to say buy overseas with confidence, but have a solid plant for how to care for and transition them if you're investing in higher cost items..more info than you asked for, but there ya go:-)

O, also facebook selling/buyin groups have some cool HTF plants!