Never read the books, never saw the movies. Since I don't know the content, I really can't offer an opinion. But if what you say is true (and I have no reason to believe that it is not) I really do not get it. And it is a horrible example for young girls.

Well, at least the movie is getting, as the BBC put it, a "critical spanking".

My favorite review clip:

If you want to watch a movie about a billionaire playboy with a penchant for darkness, inflicting violence and dressing up in masks, you're far better off seeing The Lego Batman Movie.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-38929815

However, I don't really think it promotes domestic violence. It's just a story that plays off of the fantasy of sexual dominance and submission.

While I haven't seen either movie, nor read the books, several reviews point out that this is a difference between the first movie (directed by a woman) and the second (directed by a man).

Well, okay, to be honest, after much urging from the old ladies in my development, I read about a page and half of the first book to see what the fuss was about, and the writing was far, far more painful than anything that could have happened in the "story", such as it was.

In the books (which I skim-read out of curiosity, they were very badly written), it definitely seems to promote domestic violence or at least really creeped out behavior. The girl (I forget her name) really doesn't want the dominance stuff. She just wants the guy.

She's this innocent virgin who wants to be with him and accepts all his weird conditions because of it. I guess the books make it seem like she sort of grows to like it by the end and he does seem to chill out a little (she doesn't have to sign his stupid contract, for example) but she still is quite accommodating of his jealous and stalker-ish behavior.

It's different than a situation where both people are genuinely into dominance and power games.

Of course, a lot of "romance" novels seem to promote stalking and controlling behavior as romantic. It's the kind of behavior that if an ugly broke guy did it, you'd get a restraining order but if it is a hot rich guy, then its somehow swoon-worthy.

A friend passed off the first book to me. I skimmed through parts of it and was disgusted. I consider myself a "romantic", but there was nothing romantic at all in that book for me. I didn't see that movie, haven't read this next book and have no plans to see this movie either. The premise totally creeps me out. To each his own, but in my opinion, they could potentially be a terrible influence on young women. Any woman!

I am totally cracking up on that Beagles! so true! and sad :( ( I meant the regular romantic novels) I have not read or seen the movies on 50 shades. the new trailer is very confusing and not something that would make me want to see it.

Beagles hit the nail on the head. I was really disappointed in Jamie Dornan for taking the role. He's super creepy in The Fall, but at least he isn't portrayed as a good catch!

I'm fairly pragmatic about things of a sexual nature and not easily offended, but I wouldn't touch this drivel with a ten-foot pole.

...the writing was far, far more painful than anything that could have happened in the "story", such as it was.

Too funny!

Disclosure; I have not read any of it or seen any of it. I would not be crazy about a story line where a women contorts herself (literally or figuratively) simply to "win" a man without any regard for her true interests and needs. So that is one strike. Of course, there are plenty of really bad female role models everywhere in entertainment. (like my all time most hated movie, Pretty Woman) By all accounts 50 Shades is all very poor quality as art as well.

As far as sexuality goes, NMB. Human sexuality is a very curious and highly individualized thing. I consider myself very open-minded and accepting and I don't care a fig, and am not shocked by and do not condemn, anything that two loving, committed people do together willingly in privacy. Which is funny because I don't really discuss sex at all among friends, don't like dirty jokes much, am appalled by parties selling sex toys or sex toys at wedding showers, etc etc. I am sure many people think I am an extreme prude, but what I am is extremely private. I think that is as it should be.

ETA: I am not sure that I see a linkage between this film and domestic violence per se, which I do not believe is about sex but about power. I say simply that "I am not sure". But in any event domestic abuse is a serious problem that deserves our attention and donation.

And just to confuse things, on a lighter note, a favorite quote:

“Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.”

― Oscar Wilde

Oh, Oscar. Sometimes it's just about release.

;-)

Sorry, not Oscar. He would probably have gone all faintified, actually, had someone been so crude in his presence, and would probably have disagreed with the sentiment.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/24100/what-is-the-original-source-of-everything-in-the-world-is-about-sex-except-sex

I hated Pretty Woman also.

Wasn't the 50 Shades thing based on Twilight fanfic anyway? (I have indulged in neither.)

A Perfect Storm was the worst movie ever (bad everything, but based on such a good book), but Pretty Woman, a very close second, I can't say I just hated it, I was deeply offended by it.

ETA, never read or saw 50 Shades. And yes, IIRC it was based off of Twilight fan fic.

Actually, Cannibal Holocaust was the worst movie ever, but I'm really going OT now.

;-)

In my opinion it romanticizes abusive behavior. Yes, I hear what Mtn is saying about consenting adults, etc. but some of the things depicted are way out there.

And, I only read part of the first book! There was just a commotion around the first book, I had to see what all the hype was about. Well, no thank you.

Believe it or no....I haven't seen/read any of it yet!

Faron n

And here I thought it was about what color to paint the kitchen. Silly me.

I read the books and I'm pretty open minded about S&M.

First of all yes the books were extremely terribly written. Second they were straight up abusive. Nothing was done as it should be if you were going to get into a heavy s&m relationship. Good BDSM people are all about communication, consent, and boundaries. The book had 0% of any of this. The worst, spoiler alert, is the very end of the third book. I forget, she might be pregnant or something, anyway it's supposed to be the big happily ever after moment. So in this wonderful happy ending, he gets scarily angry and she has to placate him. Not fake angry, not fun punishment, literally him being enraged and her putting her body on the line to calm him down. There's nothing fun about it.

But also drove me crazy is that the books didn't fully go into a fantasy world, well they did, but theoretically they had a contract and theoretically they had communication and boundaries but he transgressed them every single time and put tons of pressure on her. It would've been better had the author stuck to the time honoured tradition of the fantasy world with a like, medieval master and maidservant because then we would know that we were in a fantasy paradigm where there is no consent and we will be fully into the realm of nonconsensual fiction which is certainly a thing. It was the whole blurred lines part of it that was so, in my opinion, damaging.

oh, also, the books were kind of drudgery because she didn't enjoy any of it. It would've been different if the main character was really into everything but she just basically wrote those scenes as if it was a chore for the woman. I mean, shouldn't the characters be having a good time when they get themselves into these situations?

I also felt a little bad for the men in my office because all the women got really into this and they go to see the movies and discuss it at work, but I have a feeling they would not take it so kindly if the guys got together to chat about the latest Joanna Angel production.

Robo, why do you think they were into it? I dated someone who wanted to keep pushing me and I got out of there FAST. Young girls need to be taught to look out for that and not get hurt.

Haven't read the book, or seen either movie. Zero interest! But one review I read of the first movie said the best thing about the movie was the fabulous de Gourney wallpaper behind the bed!

Not into near porno or B&S -not my thing.

I have not read the books or seen the movies, but I always assumed it was an excuse for women to read/watch porn. My very religious 70 yo MIL reads romance novels, but she and my FIL have slept in separate bedrooms for over 30 years. I think it's all just pent up tension.

I read the first book to see what all the hype was about. (I am a reader, I will pretty much read anything once.) I also read Twillight when it first came out for the same reason. I remember thinking, while reading Twillight, "Gah, this is the most poorly written tripe, but I suppose since it is a YA novel that's why." I was struck with that EXACT feeling while reading 50 Shades! Horrible, horrible writing...and I couldn't use the YA excuse for this one!! It was so awful the sex scenes weren't even sexy. I vividly remember it mentioning ad nauseum Ana "biting her lip." Towards the end I starting laughing every time I read that phrase, and made it into a wine-drinking game.

ETA- The people I know who were "into" the book, it was for a light-hearted escape. No one placed deep thoughts about domestic violence, bondage, etc into it. The book really seems too silly, at least to me, to assign such weighty concerns to it. I haven't seen either movie, though, so perhaps they are deeper? Darker? Hard to imagine.



DD spent the weekend at home a few weeks ago and the two of us watched the first film together. Neither of us had read the book but we certainly knew what the film was about.

While I cringed at the bondage scenes and
Dakota Johnson's poor acting my DD laughed. And while
we weren't uncomfortable viewing it together we had two completely different reactions. I was concerned about
young adults watching this film and thinking that this was the norm.
Whatever happens between 2 consenting adults is fine with me - as long
as both are equal partners and it's not a power play. DD, who is over 30
thought it was 'silly, dumb and a waste of time." - nd the worst offense - it was Boring.

I read them. The writing itself was garbage. The whole first person pov in books annoys me anyway,but this was just bad writing. The story itself was okay if youre looking for a light,cheesy time waster. I don't see anything abusive about them though. He's not getting wasted and beating her for the hell of it. He's not raping her. They're consenting adults in an alternative sexual lifestyle. Anyone who has actually read the book and cried that it promotes abusive behavior is just uncomfortable with the idea of s&m,to the point that they think that anyone engages in it HAS to be either an evil abuser or a victim. I have to say I don't see what people get out of s&m,but to each their own.

I would never watch the movies though. The previews made me cringe. Not because of the content,but the total lack of talent involved.

I don't have any problem with S&M if people consent to and like that kinda thing. Not my business and not judging.

From what I understand from reading about this in the Atlantic, though, many in the S&M community (such as it is) were pretty upset by 50 Shades b/c it conflated abuse with BDSM and because the book made it seem like the guy was only into S&M b/c he had been messed up as a kid (e.g. the book basically made it seem like there had to be something wrong w/ you to do that).

Many silly romances, I think are kind of fun and I kind of enjoy some of them when I want something mindless to read. But when a book conflates romance with stalking and coerced consent and becomes as popular as this one, I think that's not a great message. Don't care if other people want to read it, but I won't pay to support it by buying the books or movies.

And it was "coerced" consent, to the extent the girl consented at all. The big problem was, she didn't really want the dominance stuff, she only acquiesced to please the guy.

Bad message to send to girls that if they let a guy kinda stalk them and do what he wants in bed even if you're not into it, you'll live happily ever after (just as long as you can keep his temper in check)

Maybe not as big a problem actually w/ 50 shades since I think it was mostly older people who were the audience. But from what I understand of Twilight (which I didn't read) the vampire guy is kinda stalker-y too...

No desire to read the books or see the movies. I watched the trailer for the first one - and yawned.

For suero, even with a kitchen!!

I fail to see how this franchise good or bad writing does not in the long run fight against the idea that women are smart, intelligent, capable, equal to men. I think it keeps us down. It adds fuel to the idea we are sex objects. That sex is an overwhelming and total focus of our lives. THAT is the danger. Demoralizing, cheap, can't be taken seriously. I am appalled at the lack of outrage. This is the sort of fight worth fighting--leave Hillary behind and fight for our place at the table!!!

kittymoonbeam, I meant the women at my work were into the books....I don't necessarily think they're into s&m. There was something they really liked about the books. But I certainly know women who enjoy S&M in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons. Kittymoonbeam I think it's great that you recognize your boundaries and were able to escape a situation that made you uncomfortable. If the person kept pushing you they sound like a horrible person.

I agree with the beagles about the fundamental problem about the book. It's not that they got into S&M it's just that it was poorly done how they got into it.

I kind of like when something titillating takes women by storm because I like the idea of women having agency and choosing stuff that works for them in the bedroom. It's sort of a nice change to move from object to actor. And I tend to like be reassured by books as a medium just because you can be sure, "no one was harmed in the making of. "

Hatethecold, that's sexy. Sort of shamanistic like becoming a man owl or wolf or something in the kitchen. I love creativity!

This thread has made me laugh out loud so many times lol. TY.

Never read the books and never got the craze. I did see the movie when it was free to view on HBO.

It was cringe inducing and the whole mindset is very sick. It's an awful example for girls and young women on every single level.

My hope would be that such a movie would lead to very important discussions about the difference between fantasy and reality and knowing where the boundaries are. Young men and women (actually older ones too) need to understand that fantasies are okay, even if they are a bit out there and even if they go somewhat against your ideal self. It is just a fantasy, appreciate it for what it is. The standards for fantasy do not have to meet the same standards for reality. Reality is where you do and spend most of your time and that is the place where standards and boundaries are essential to your well being and thus are essential and need to be enforced.

If adults want to spend a couple of hours and far too much money watching the movie, I do not see the harm so much. I read the first book although I ended up skimming quite a bit to move the story along. I do not mind reading titillating scenes, but these did not do anything for me.

These movies/books will probably be old news by the time my daughter is ready for them. I do find most relationship portrayals as fodder for discussions with my children on healthy relationships and that is true of Twilight, Cinderella, Suicide Squad, etc, etc.

In stark contrast to the Cinderella story where the abuser reforms if the victim sticks around and loves him enough, the reality is that the violence usually escalates over time.

I just noticed this in the OP for the first time and I have to say that it confuses me. Have I only known weird off-beat versions of Cinderella? Because except for the two wonderful stories by Tanith Lee (When the Clock Strikes and La Reine Blanche), in all the other versions of Cinderella I've ever read, the abuser is the stepmother. The father may be a passive acceptor (as in the Korean version about Pingling), but usually he's just oblivious and doesn't figure much in the finale. Certainly it's not his love that signifies.

What have I been missing? I realize that the notion of the Cinderella Complex has been stretched hugely far in all directions, but that sure isn't in Perrault or the fairy tale canon that I know. Has the children's story changed that much in the past twenty years?

ETA Sorry, this site keeps adding stuff to the URL in the link but you can find it by clicking the first link on this page:

when the clock strikes tanith lee

I agree with writersblock, the real torture was trying to read it. Skimmed it out of curiosity, but couldn't read it seriously. It was so juvenile, and there is a certain point where I as a woman had to grow up, but some women seem to extend the teenage lifestyle indefinitely, so I'm sure these things speak to them. I'm kind of a curmudgeony moralist and I do think such thing "don't speak to our better angels" but such is the norm these days. Teens make good consumers due to their neediness so the emphasis in our society is to keep us locked in adolescence. I once watched an S&M movie called "The Secretary" with James Spader and Maggie Gyllenhall. For a movie about such a titillating subject, that sucker sure dragged! In the end it was just silly. Someone who is really in control of their own self and is competent is the most sexy to me, not the game playing! I was out of work at the time I watched that movie, and I thought, "Must be nice to be rich and not have to work all that many hours so that you have time to fool around like that."

Well, there's "Beauty and the Beast" which some interpret to have the theme, "Beauty tames the savage beast." But in the Beauty and the Beast fairy story that I was exposed to and read, the beast had noble and kind behavior, so the message was "Don't judge a book by its cover" and if you get to know someone's true character, and that character is good, then love will follow. But I doubt modern soft porn movies are that deep. One thing is for sure, the movie theater parking lot in my small rural home town was packed tonight as I drove by and that was the movie that was playing. Stands to reason, since rural America apparently buys lock stock and barrel that the rich immature abuser is worth loving and he'll save them in the end and prove to be a nice guy. Yeah . . . right. I stand by my original premise, grow up, real life is not like the movies and TV, that stuff is packaged to get you to buy snake oil. Psychopaths are often charming and also often abusive. But some folks would rather live in a fantasy world than deal with the reality.

Phantom of the Opera

I thought Caitlyn Roper was referring to the sequel where she finally gets to marry Mr. Creepy. Like Cinderella marries her Prince after going through adversity. The advertisements on tv make it look romantic.

Thanks, I pink and 4boys. I know there are many other tales/novels/etc like that; just saying it doesn't seem all that relevant to Cinderella.

I can see that may well be what was meant, kittymoonbeam, but it's very badly put, if so. Thanks.

I haven't read the books nor seen the movie. When they came out and I read all the hype and reviews, I determined (from my point of view) that it was all schlock and had no interest. I don't know ONE woman who read the books. Seriously, not one.

I've always hated how so many stories have a theme of a woman falling in love (or implying they did) with a monster - either a literal or figurative one - Phantom, Beauty and the Beast, King Kong, The Fly, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Twilight and on and on. It totally creeps me out that it is such a common, accepted, popular theme. I mean even as a child I hated the Honeymooners because I thought Jackie Gleason was an abusive a...hole; not a fantasy monster, but a real one.

I can't help but wonder and imagine how a reversal of the roles would fly in our culture; a totally monstrous appearing woman, with a heart of gold, winning the heart of the handsome prince. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about movies or this genre of books or plays, because I hate them so, but I can't think of one example where this is true. It's so offensive to me that women are continually depicted in this manner (and many others).

I just read an article about pornography's affect on boys/men. Doctor's offices are filling up with men in their 20's asking for Viagra. They can't perform with REAL women. They have their sexual responses trained to respond to pictures of highly lured situations. How is the "Shades of" franchise not soft porn? It does matter what we put into our psyche's. We can and do train our sexual responses, the same way a CD carves a song into its tracks. Once carved they aren't easily changed. Those are just facts, the way we are wired. There really is a victim in all these choices people are making.

The only one I can think of is dogfight which I watched many moons ago. http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101748/

I think the cultural pervasiveness of boorish unattractive men always winning over cute successful women is actively harmful and contributes to that scary underbelly of the Internet where young man hate and fear women, see them as objects or prizes to be won, and also think they deserve to be with an attractive woman Who is way out of their league. A very toxic stew.

The only movie I can think of where an 'unattractive' woman won the man was Shallow Hal. But that guy was not really attractive and I don't think women were probably depicted well in that movie and he only liked her b/c some gypsy or something had put a spell on him (can't remember, it has been years since it came out and I never actually saw the movie, just the previews).

Of course, there is also the genre of movies where the "mousy" girl wins the popular guy (like She's All That and some of the classic 80's teen movies) but in those movies, the girl is usually gorgeous and just has to put on a little makeup and take off her glasses or whatever and then she becomes a beauty.